CrushAlot wrote:Something that I haven't seen mentioned is that Toney Douglas could not get any minutes until Walsh traveled with the team to scout his own players and evaluate the coaching staff. I don't think you can ignore the fact that for 63 games of the 82 game season Douglas was barely used by D'Antoni on a team that was playing for nothing this year. I liked Vescey's quote where he said Mike D'Antoni doesn't play bad rookies he plays bad veterans. When you consider that those vets all have expiring contracts it makes no sense that the rookies got no minutes until Walsh traveled with the team. Jordan Hill looked good when he returned to the Garden and has played well for Houston. There is no explaining or excusing the devaluing of him to the point where he and a second first round pick needed to be traded just to dump salary.

playing TD was MDA's absolute last option over Duhon, Hughes, Nate, House & Sergio... he basically had to have someone force his hand by having the GM travel with the team to finally acknowledge that things weren't working out doing things his way... all that BS about only playing good rookies is just more spin doctoring by the master of spin... if we had Jannero Pargo or Smush Parker on this squad, those guys would be getting playing time ahead of TD too... this guy simply does not like to play rookies period.

TMS wrote:

kam77 wrote:The Coach said "if he plays hard the whole time" which is Coach-speak for.. he doesn't always play hard.

you said his practice habits were questionable & that Hahn & the Rockets coaches commented on this & that quote is where u derived that from? come on dude...

Hahn said it. I'm repeating it.

CrushAlot wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Im not sure what you guys were looking at early in the season, cause from what I saw, TD look lost, and really didn't looked to set anyone up but himself.
We have been dying to get JJ out of here and Im almost certain he bcame an attractive player do to mike playing him. TD isn't going any where anytime soon and had MDA gave him some burn, he probably would have been part of the jj trade instead of hill.

It doesn't take the 8th pick in the draft, rights to switch picks in 2011 and a first round pick in 2012 to move an attractive player.

scary to think what we may have had to give up had MDA not played him 35+ a night... maybe 10 1st round picks?

TMS wrote:

kam77 wrote:

TMS wrote:

kam77 wrote:The Coach said "if he plays hard the whole time" which is Coach-speak for.. he doesn't always play hard.

you said his practice habits were questionable & that Hahn & the Rockets coaches commented on this & that quote is where u derived that from? come on dude...

Hahn said it. I'm repeating it.

u still haven't shown anyone where Hahn or the Rockets' coaches said he had bad practice habits tho... u derived those interpretations completely on your own from the comments you cited.

Hahn cited the comment and mentioned that Adelman repeated it. You don't say "if he continues to play hard" more than once if there was ever a question about not playing hard.

knicks1248 wrote:

TMS wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Something that I haven't seen mentioned is that Toney Douglas could not get any minutes until Walsh traveled with the team to scout his own players and evaluate the coaching staff. I don't think you can ignore the fact that for 63 games of the 82 game season Douglas was barely used by D'Antoni on a team that was playing for nothing this year. I liked Vescey's quote where he said Mike D'Antoni doesn't play bad rookies he plays bad veterans. When you consider that those vets all have expiring contracts it makes no sense that the rookies got no minutes until Walsh traveled with the team. Jordan Hill looked good when he returned to the Garden and has played well for Houston. There is no explaining or excusing the devaluing of him to the point where he and a second first round pick needed to be traded just to dump salary.

playing TD was MDA's absolute last option over Duhon, Hughes, Nate, House & Sergio... he basically had to have someone force his hand by having the GM travel with the team to finally acknowledge that things weren't working out doing things his way... all that BS about only playing good rookies is just more spin doctoring by the master of spin... if we had Jannero Pargo or Smush Parker on this squad, those guys would be getting playing time ahead of TD too... this guy simply does not like to play rookies period.

What makes you think walsh had anything to do wih mike playing TD now, if i recall several players that mike bench went crying to walsh (larry, darko) and it did not result in them getting more PT.

I agree that even you would might have been a better option then Duhon, but Mike had to look at the record and relize when duhon played well we won. MDA played TD sparingly and he didn't skow enough to warrant more PT. When the Playoffs became a pipe dream he decided to go with the rookie which he had stated he would do since early NOV

To an astounding degree, success in athletics is directly related to "Confidence". Confidence is developed based on whether your results are favorable, when you know you are playing well. A good example of the critical value of confidence is what happened to Monica Seles. Before she attacked, the percentage of matches she was winning was extremely high. After she began playing again, her winning percentage dropped dramatically and she never managed to become the champion that she was previously. Her body was fully recovered, her skills remained the same, her confidence was what was damaged imo.

If you put a players like Toney Douglas into a game, and he doesn't make a significant positive difference, he will gradually begin to lose confidence. No player in the NBA is capable of playing point guard well in their first NBA year, assuming they don't have significant experience at point guard either in college or overseas. So smart NBA coaches make sure that their rookies have a significant chance to succeed before they start giving them minutes. Because Mike didn't believed Toney Douglas was likely to be ready so soon, he gave his other point guards, with a great deal more experience, the lion's share of the opportunities.

It was only after Toney Douglas started winning games, that Mike realized that all of the different ways that Toney was contributing on the floor, made him a winning point guard despite the fact that there were still some aspects of his passing game that were not yet ready for "prime time". So I think Mike did Toney and the Knicks a big favor, by sitting him on the bench and letting him polish his game before he started him. If you notice, Toney's confidence toward the end of the game is one of his most valuable contributions to the Knicks. Letting Toney play earlier, when he was not ready to succeed, might have significantly increased the chances of damaging Toney's confidence. All in all, it seems to me that giving Toney time to learn his craft on the bench should be viewed as a successful tactic for Mike, not a mistake that slowed Toney's progress. Is my position clear enough?

sebstar wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Im a die hard greenbay packer fan and I got to tell ya, When Aaron took over from bret, he had to wait roughly 5 seasons before he got his shot, and greenbay hasn't missed a beat since bret. He said he learned so much sitting on the side lines that he was almost happy that he did.

Im certainlty not a fan of learning on the fly, and i had no problems with Mike not playing TD, because watching and studying the game helps with the mental aspect of the game.

no way it was five seasons? Was it?

It was actually 4.....

TMS wrote:knicks1248, u bring up the Packers example w/Brett Favre & Aaron Rodgers... i'm a diehard Giants fan & i can point to how Tom Coughlin handled Eli Manning's development... TC knew that team was going nowhere with Kurt Warner as the starting QB, so he handed the reigns over to a rookie QB in Eli Manning 1/3 of the way into the season even tho he knew that by doing so it would mean they were giving up any hopes of making the playoffs that year... he did this for the greater good of the franchise's longterm future because he knew that it was more important to get Eli some real game action than having him languish on the bench... even tho it meant we would basically stink the rest of that season, his efforts were rewarded a couple years' later while celebrating a Super Bowl championship.

now i'm not saying TD will lead this team to a championship one day, but the example holds... had MDA had the foresight to play this kid earlier & let him work through his rookie struggles against real NBA competition, my belief is that it would have been more beneficial for our longterm future over playing Chris Duhon so many minutes when he was going to be gone after this season regardless.

Can you suggest an NBA player who played as point guard in his first year in the league, when previously all of his playing experience was at a different position?

was Jrue Holiday ready to be a winning PG in the NBA this season? the Sixers invested a 1st round pick on taking him & threw him into the fire at the PG position so he could learn on the job even tho Darren Collison was playing the PG position at UCLA... doesn't seem to have hurt his development as far as i can tell... & most of Stephen Curry's experience at Davidson was at the SG if i'm not mistaken (could be wrong i didn't follow him too closely in college)... these are just 2 examples from this past draft.

i'm not suggesting TD was ready to be a winning PG in the NBA w/o any significant prior experience at the position... the point is that we all knew Duhon was not the answer at the PG position... wasting 3/4 of the season on playing him big minutes when we already saw last season his limitations as a PG was pointless... we drafted Toney Douglas for a reason, Donnie Walsh was high on this kid's ability & potential... a major part of any rookie's learning curve is learning through trial by fire... yes, there are nuances to the PG position that require a lot more than just instincts & athletic ability to master... if those nuances can't be nurtured through playing experience during a rebuilding season, just when is the best time to do it? when we're competing for the playoffs next year with a reconstructed team full of veterans?