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Toney Douglas>Branden jennings
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tkf
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3/23/2010  12:22 PM
I know someone will bring up jennings game vs the warriors.. and indeed it was impressive..

But it was GS.... everyone has career games..

last year.. chris duhon.. 12/22 dimes

same game.David lee 37/21 boards..

go figure...

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
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martin
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3/23/2010  12:27 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
Paladin55 wrote:
iSergio wrote:I'm very high on Toney Douglas. I actually think he's our best young player. Yes, better and more potential then both Danilo Gallinari and Wilson Chandler. I just love Douglas' defense and shooting. He's also fearless.

Not sure that he has more potential than those two, but his fearlessness/aggressiveness sets him apart from them at this point.

If you look at Gallo, Wilson, and TD, you see two guys- Douglas and Chandler, already at their physical peaks, IMO. TD just turned 24, by the way, and he is already a mature physical specimen. Wilson turns 23 in a couple of months, but he has been a mature athlete for a good time, now. Gallo is still growing and filling out at 21+. (I put Hill, by the way, a step above Gallo in physical maturation, but not at the levels of Chandler or Douglas.)

I think Gallinari has a lot of space (more than Douglas or Chandler)to grow both physically, and as a player, and he has also shown a lot of all around abilities that nobody thought he had, which leads me to think that he has only scratched the surface of his potential.

Chandler has the physical tools, and has had stretches where he has made me think that he is really coming to understand how to maximize his abilities on the court (much better shot selection and attention being given to his midrange game).

If we look at TD as a SG, he is already a near complete player. If we expect him to be a PG, he has a lot of work ahead of him. Whether he becomes better than Jennings depends on whether he can become a PG who comes to understand the "big picture" as a distributor (Bring out the old cliche' Can he make the players around him better?), and makes the right decisions as a shooter/scorer. I would love to see some more glimpses of him being a real PG before the season ends.

I think we lucked out with TD- I just hope that he can take that next step and become a guy who is able to orchestrate an offense and get about 8 APG with a minimum of turnovers.

A combo guard without a traditional PG is not gonna bring a whole lot of success

it did for the Lakers, Chicago for a really long time and a for a lot of rings.

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AnubisADL
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3/23/2010  12:27 PM
tkf wrote:I know someone will bring up jennings game vs the warriors.. and indeed it was impressive..

But it was GS.... everyone has career games..

last year.. chris duhon.. 12/22 dimes

same game.David lee 37/21 boards..

go figure...

Why even mention Chris Duhon or David Lee when they put up those stats after being in the league 3 yrs?

Jennings dropped a double nickel on those guys. He didnt drop 30 points. He dropped 55 as a rookie.

Fact is Jennings has been good ALL year while playing for Skiles while Duhon never sniffed those stats under Skiles. Duhon had to play for D'Antoni to put up stats for a single year. Can you imagine Jennings stats in a run-n-gun offense. He'd probably be close to Tyreke Evans averages with just as many losses.

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Allanfan20
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3/23/2010  12:27 PM
There is no such thing as Basketball IQ. Just unforced turnovers and clutch shots under two minutes.

This a joke?

“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
simrud
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3/23/2010  12:51 PM
I would not put too much stock into the garbage time of the season performances.

Couple of years ago Mardy Collins was doing the same thing, and as far as I know he is a bench scrub somewhere.

A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
BRIGGS
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3/23/2010  12:58 PM
simrud wrote:I would not put too much stock into the garbage time of the season performances.

Couple of years ago Mardy Collins was doing the same thing, and as far as I know he is a bench scrub somewhere.

Is the end of the season going to take away the guy's quickness or jumpshot? Mardy Collins was not a guy who had this type of speed or form on his J.

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AnubisADL
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3/23/2010  1:56 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
simrud wrote:I would not put too much stock into the garbage time of the season performances.

Couple of years ago Mardy Collins was doing the same thing, and as far as I know he is a bench scrub somewhere.

Is the end of the season going to take away the guy's quickness or jumpshot? Mardy Collins was not a guy who had this type of speed or form on his J.

So we are going to compare a small sample size then lets compare Jennings first half of the season to Douglas 2nd half.

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fishmike
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3/23/2010  2:03 PM
To me the special thing Jennings brings to the table is that Iverson like first step. He can make that one insanely quick step that will always free him to take a quick jumper or make a clean pass. Douglas doesnt have that and its not something you can teach. Thats also part of the reason that Douglas is ahead of Jennings in many areas (aside from age). Douglas has had to learn to do things fundamentally.

I dont know how driven Jennings is. He will always be able to get his shot off and he will always be able to create off the dribble. He is a liability on defense and is easy to push around with that Kate Moss like frame. However *IF* he ever develops the fundamentals to go with that first step he can really be a Nash type guy. He will pick you apart or drill jumpers in your face all day.

Its going to take a lot of drive from Jennings to do that. It will always be easy to fall back on that quick first step and settle for jumpers. Jamal Crawford is a hell of a good guy, always liked him but he's been doing it 8 years in the league and will probably be doing it 8 years from now.

That being said it gives him a higher ceiling in my opinion.

I was VERY staunch in my support for Walsh not drafting him. Not a lot of 160 pounders have long fruitful careers. He had some baggage also.

I'm very happy with how Douglas looks. He said himself he learned a ton this year even while he sat. When you look at our options its very feasable he's the starting PG next year and I'm starting to feel better about it.

I said he could be a Rondo... I take it back. They guy he can emulate is Billups. Billups bounced around like 3-4 teams his first 4 years. Tweener, not a true playmaker but a good talented (lottery) player. Then Detroit gave him the full MLE and Dumars said just do your thing. He doesnt get a ton of assists either, but he's a hardnosed defender and scorer. God I hope Douglas has that kind of potential. Good start.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
AnubisADL
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3/23/2010  2:26 PM
fishmike wrote:To me the special thing Jennings brings to the table is that Iverson like first step. He can make that one insanely quick step that will always free him to take a quick jumper or make a clean pass. Douglas doesnt have that and its not something you can teach. Thats also part of the reason that Douglas is ahead of Jennings in many areas (aside from age). Douglas has had to learn to do things fundamentally.

I dont know how driven Jennings is. He will always be able to get his shot off and he will always be able to create off the dribble. He is a liability on defense and is easy to push around with that Kate Moss like frame. However *IF* he ever develops the fundamentals to go with that first step he can really be a Nash type guy. He will pick you apart or drill jumpers in your face all day.

Its going to take a lot of drive from Jennings to do that. It will always be easy to fall back on that quick first step and settle for jumpers. Jamal Crawford is a hell of a good guy, always liked him but he's been doing it 8 years in the league and will probably be doing it 8 years from now.

That being said it gives him a higher ceiling in my opinion.

I was VERY staunch in my support for Walsh not drafting him. Not a lot of 160 pounders have long fruitful careers. He had some baggage also.

I'm very happy with how Douglas looks. He said himself he learned a ton this year even while he sat. When you look at our options its very feasable he's the starting PG next year and I'm starting to feel better about it.

I said he could be a Rondo... I take it back. They guy he can emulate is Billups. Billups bounced around like 3-4 teams his first 4 years. Tweener, not a true playmaker but a good talented (lottery) player. Then Detroit gave him the full MLE and Dumars said just do your thing. He doesnt get a ton of assists either, but he's a hardnosed defender and scorer. God I hope Douglas has that kind of potential. Good start.

WOW. Jennings has an Iverson like first step? Dude that isn't his game. He plays off screens then uses his speed to get ahead. Jennings uses his dribble to get a shot off not get to the rim.

People forget Billups was the 3rd pick for a reason. Douglas wont sniff being as good as Billups man.

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tkf
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3/23/2010  2:38 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/23/2010  2:41 PM
AnubisADL wrote:
tkf wrote:I know someone will bring up jennings game vs the warriors.. and indeed it was impressive..

But it was GS.... everyone has career games..

last year.. chris duhon.. 12/22 dimes

same game.David lee 37/21 boards..

go figure...

Why even mention Chris Duhon or David Lee when they put up those stats after being in the league 3 yrs?

Jennings dropped a double nickel on those guys. He didnt drop 30 points. He dropped 55 as a rookie.

Fact is Jennings has been good ALL year while playing for Skiles while Duhon never sniffed those stats under Skiles. Duhon had to play for D'Antoni to put up stats for a single year. Can you imagine Jennings stats in a run-n-gun offense. He'd probably be close to Tyreke Evans averages with just as many losses.

exactly, my point.. they have been in the league 3 years and had career games vs the warriors, numbers they haven't come close to vs good teams... everyone beast on the warriors...

Do you really think 55 points is that much more impressive(if at all) than 37/21? or even 22 assists? hmmm

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
simrud
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3/23/2010  2:55 PM
Douglas maybe quick and strong, with an average shooting ability but that does not, at least so far, mitigate the fact that he is not a true PG. He ran the team out of the game against the Rockets, and this is not the first time he did it. He maybe good later sure, but he is not the answer for a starting PG, not right now anyways.
A glimmer of hope maybe?!?
earthmansurfer
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3/23/2010  2:57 PM
crzymdups wrote:i still see jennings as a young kenny anderson. he's a special player.

but toney is very impressive in his own right. i think he can be very good. but i also don't think he's the kind of player mike d'antoni wants at the point. but hopefully d'antoni can freaking get over what he wants at some point and work with what he has.

Jennings has no where the shooting touch that Kenny had. The athleticism yes. The court feel yes. But Jennings is having all kinds of problems shooting the ball. He is down to 37% on the year, in Feb he hit a low of 31% but this month he is up to 39%.

Maybe with JEnnings ahtletic ability he might be able to do more inside scoring, but he is a bit slim still.

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fishmike
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3/23/2010  2:59 PM
AnubisADL wrote:
fishmike wrote:To me the special thing Jennings brings to the table is that Iverson like first step. He can make that one insanely quick step that will always free him to take a quick jumper or make a clean pass. Douglas doesnt have that and its not something you can teach. Thats also part of the reason that Douglas is ahead of Jennings in many areas (aside from age). Douglas has had to learn to do things fundamentally.

I dont know how driven Jennings is. He will always be able to get his shot off and he will always be able to create off the dribble. He is a liability on defense and is easy to push around with that Kate Moss like frame. However *IF* he ever develops the fundamentals to go with that first step he can really be a Nash type guy. He will pick you apart or drill jumpers in your face all day.

Its going to take a lot of drive from Jennings to do that. It will always be easy to fall back on that quick first step and settle for jumpers. Jamal Crawford is a hell of a good guy, always liked him but he's been doing it 8 years in the league and will probably be doing it 8 years from now.

That being said it gives him a higher ceiling in my opinion.

I was VERY staunch in my support for Walsh not drafting him. Not a lot of 160 pounders have long fruitful careers. He had some baggage also.

I'm very happy with how Douglas looks. He said himself he learned a ton this year even while he sat. When you look at our options its very feasable he's the starting PG next year and I'm starting to feel better about it.

I said he could be a Rondo... I take it back. They guy he can emulate is Billups. Billups bounced around like 3-4 teams his first 4 years. Tweener, not a true playmaker but a good talented (lottery) player. Then Detroit gave him the full MLE and Dumars said just do your thing. He doesnt get a ton of assists either, but he's a hardnosed defender and scorer. God I hope Douglas has that kind of potential. Good start.

WOW. Jennings has an Iverson like first step? Dude that isn't his game. He plays off screens then uses his speed to get ahead. Jennings uses his dribble to get a shot off not get to the rim.

People forget Billups was the 3rd pick for a reason. Douglas wont sniff being as good as Billups man.


and Greg Oden was the first pick and Rondo was at the bottom of round one. Whats the difference? If the draft was a redo where would Lee be picked today? He was drafted 3rd because it was the one of the worst drafts EVER.

Obviously Iverson used his quickness to get to the basket more. Dude drew more contact than Shaq. They dont have similar games(Jennings and Iverson) but they both have that first step turbo. Jennings uses it all the time to create space for those pull up jumpers. I think your talking about all those high screens that get set for him? Part of his problem is instead of driving into the paint he pulls up for 3's. A lot of them. Just cause you get a good look doesnt make it a good shot

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
martin
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3/23/2010  3:03 PM
simrud wrote:Douglas maybe quick and strong, with an average shooting ability but that does not, at least so far, mitigate the fact that he is not a true PG. He ran the team out of the game against the Rockets, and this is not the first time he did it. He maybe good later sure, but he is not the answer for a starting PG, not right now anyways.

was is average with Douglas's shooting ability. we now have a small NBA sample and a full college sample. What's average?

Seem way above average, all things considered, no?

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Juice
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3/23/2010  3:15 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
Childs2Dudley wrote:Weren't you saying Douglas was nothing special when he was drafted?

Yes I did and I was wrong.


Thanks..... and now you have so much potential going forward

bitty41
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3/23/2010  3:20 PM
This reeks of the Mardy Collins threads I'm in the mind-set that I need to see a full season of solid production before I'm saying anything about Knick rookies. Because we've seen this many times before a rookie comes on strong the last few months of the season Knick fans rejoice that he's the next great thing.
AnubisADL
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3/23/2010  3:20 PM
tkf wrote:
AnubisADL wrote:
tkf wrote:I know someone will bring up jennings game vs the warriors.. and indeed it was impressive..

But it was GS.... everyone has career games..

last year.. chris duhon.. 12/22 dimes

same game.David lee 37/21 boards..

go figure...

Why even mention Chris Duhon or David Lee when they put up those stats after being in the league 3 yrs?

Jennings dropped a double nickel on those guys. He didnt drop 30 points. He dropped 55 as a rookie.

Fact is Jennings has been good ALL year while playing for Skiles while Duhon never sniffed those stats under Skiles. Duhon had to play for D'Antoni to put up stats for a single year. Can you imagine Jennings stats in a run-n-gun offense. He'd probably be close to Tyreke Evans averages with just as many losses.

exactly, my point.. they have been in the league 3 years and had career games vs the warriors, numbers they haven't come close to vs good teams... everyone beast on the warriors...

Do you really think 55 points is that much more impressive(if at all) than 37/21? or even 22 assists? hmmm

My point was Duhon did alot of NOTHING his first 3 yrs. He played the Warriors a bunch of times before he came to the Knicks and didnt put up major stats.

David Lee puts up stats against EVERY team now just like Jennings. Jennings might not drop 50 but he could put up 20+ on any team. Skiles isn't going to let Jennings run wild and light teams up.

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fishmike
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3/23/2010  4:01 PM
bitty41 wrote:This reeks of the Mardy Collins threads I'm in the mind-set that I need to see a full season of solid production before I'm saying anything about Knick rookies. Because we've seen this many times before a rookie comes on strong the last few months of the season Knick fans rejoice that he's the next great thing.
I can only speak for myself when I say that I alway thought Mardy Collins sucked. I thought he sucked in college and in the pros. Mardy on the best day of his life is a poor man's Eric Snow. Douglas was and elite player when he left Florida. Mardy never was. I never saw anything from Mardy that told he was going to be a good NBA player. In Douglas I see a guy that can be a legit scorer (the D League is full of them) but also a guy who can really defend the opposing PG.

Also I believe Douglas tested to be one (if not the) quickest players in the draft. There are physical tools backing up what you see.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TMS
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3/23/2010  4:05 PM
i like Toney's ability on both ends of the floor... as an overall player i can see why BRIGGS might think he's better than Jennings... Jennings is weak defensively & easily gets outmuscled... Douglas is throwing his body around all over the floor, can take over a game in crunchtime if need be, & seems like the perfect team player to have... talent wise, i think Jennings by a pretty wide margin, but in terms of what they actually bring to the table, u can make an argument for Douglas because he makes in impact on both ends.

that said all things considered, i think Jennings is a better player & if i could trade Douglas to get Jennings i would, as long as i could be sure we wouldn't run into any problems down the road w/him clashing w/MDA over his style of play... at a #29 pick tho i don't see anyone i'd rather have right now out of that draft & that includes DeJuan Blair... a few years from now who knows maybe we'd all be proven wrong & Douglas turns out to be nothing more than a likable role playing vet like Charlie Ward, but right now u can't help but be excited over this kid's play.

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sebstar
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3/23/2010  4:11 PM
fishmike wrote:
bitty41 wrote:This reeks of the Mardy Collins threads I'm in the mind-set that I need to see a full season of solid production before I'm saying anything about Knick rookies. Because we've seen this many times before a rookie comes on strong the last few months of the season Knick fans rejoice that he's the next great thing.
I can only speak for myself when I say that I alway thought Mardy Collins sucked. I thought he sucked in college and in the pros. Mardy on the best day of his life is a poor man's Eric Snow. Douglas was and elite player when he left Florida. Mardy never was. I never saw anything from Mardy that told he was going to be a good NBA player. In Douglas I see a guy that can be a legit scorer (the D League is full of them) but also a guy who can really defend the opposing PG.

Also I believe Douglas tested to be one (if not the) quickest players in the draft. There are physical tools backing up what you see.

I actually agree. I remember when Chandler performed well at the end of his rookie season during garbage time and people were skeptical. I definitely think Douglas is more Chandler than Mardy and is no fluke.

My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
Toney Douglas>Branden jennings

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