Cosmic wrote:

TheGame wrote:

Walsh has just essentially made the exact same trade IT made 4 years ago. In fact, in throwing in Hill, Walshes trade is even worse. Except whereas IT traded for an actual player who he thought would become a cornerstone of our franchise, Walsh has traded for cap space and the 50% chance (at best) that Lebron wants to leave Cleveland and play in NY. If this was his plan all along, then why not trade Nate and Jeffries last year when it would not have cost us nearly as much. It was poor planning and the only thing that can save this disaster in the making is if McGrady returns to near-all star form and he can entice Lebron and Bosh to come here.

Why do I have to keep explaining that Isiah threw in picks to acquire long term contracts that turned out to be terrible players who destroyed our flexibility ---- WHERE Walsh made the pick trades to CREATE infinite flexibility --- AND that flexibility will turn out to be players who make us a good team --- who could entirely invalidate the 2011 swap --- and make the 2012 pick at the best a late teens pick --- and that Jordan Hill is a scrub?

TMac is now the key to LeBron? No. No he isn't.

I expect the guy to go down in a heap once again and get waived at the end of the year. He was here to dump Jeffries and be given a look-see the same way Donnie gave Wilcox, Hughes, Darko look-sees, and the same way hes going to give House a look-see.

Nothing more.

Cosmic, cap flexibility sure turned the Pistons into a contender this year, right? Cap flexibility don't mean squat unless you can sign franchise talent and franchise talent does not move around in this league easily. Walsh traded away all our assets on the slim chance that the planets will align and McGrady will return to form and Lebron and Bosh desire to play some where else next season. You can talk about flexibility all you want, but have trade assets gives you flexibility too and Walsh just eliminated that option for us.

Cosmic wrote:Edit: This was to respond to Markji

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Well, without being there, you'd have to think he tried. The Nate/Jeffries to SAC for Kenny Thomas had legs - but I think the question is what were the other pieces to that trade? Did SAC demand a pick? Is that why the trade fell through? (And, yes, it was a real rumor, the NBA granted SAC/NYK a 15 minute trade deadline extension to try to work out a deal).

And with Curry - Walsh told any team who wanted Lee last year they had to take Curry. That was the right thing to do but that was the end of that.

In the end maybe we would have been better off giving up a pick last year to dump Jeffries. Maybe do it draft day instead of drafting Hill.

I don't know...that's a lost cause to figure that out. I'm sure there was opportunity but at the time the asking price may have seemed to high. This time we got backed into a corner and we had to do - what we had to do - to get it done - or end up screwed.

Jeffries + ? + 09 pick on draft night for Kenny Thomas. I'm guess that could have been done. We don't draft Hill. We keep our 2011 swap and 2012 pick.

Yes, I suppose that's entirely probable. But, again at the time, Walsh wasn't giving up a pick to dump Zach or Craw or Jeff or Curry. In hindsight it backfired on Jeffries and it cost us the unnecessary 2011 swap and 2012 outright pick.

However, remember, we did get Rodriguez who could prove worth that 2012 pick sent out. We could be better in 2011 than the Rockets meaning no swap. We know hill isn't good.

So it MAY just work out in the end if you think of it on those terms.

I know hindsight is easier and u can always second guess a situation but Walsh should have known to dump Jeffries contract earlier. Once everyone saw that we were for real in our cap space goal for 2010, they rose up to make it harder for us. And the longer we waited, the greater the demands.

Other possibilities - Mike James last year. Wash was trying to dump him. Don't you think Jeffries + a 2nd round pick and some cash could have gotten it done? We didn't have to give up a lottery pick, IMO. or Jeffries + Nate?

Donnie got the cap space, but a God awful trade negotiation.

And yes, Sergio was a good addition.

TheGame wrote:

Cosmic wrote:

TheGame wrote:

Walsh has just essentially made the exact same trade IT made 4 years ago. In fact, in throwing in Hill, Walshes trade is even worse. Except whereas IT traded for an actual player who he thought would become a cornerstone of our franchise, Walsh has traded for cap space and the 50% chance (at best) that Lebron wants to leave Cleveland and play in NY. If this was his plan all along, then why not trade Nate and Jeffries last year when it would not have cost us nearly as much. It was poor planning and the only thing that can save this disaster in the making is if McGrady returns to near-all star form and he can entice Lebron and Bosh to come here.

Why do I have to keep explaining that Isiah threw in picks to acquire long term contracts that turned out to be terrible players who destroyed our flexibility ---- WHERE Walsh made the pick trades to CREATE infinite flexibility --- AND that flexibility will turn out to be players who make us a good team --- who could entirely invalidate the 2011 swap --- and make the 2012 pick at the best a late teens pick --- and that Jordan Hill is a scrub?

TMac is now the key to LeBron? No. No he isn't.

I expect the guy to go down in a heap once again and get waived at the end of the year. He was here to dump Jeffries and be given a look-see the same way Donnie gave Wilcox, Hughes, Darko look-sees, and the same way hes going to give House a look-see.

Nothing more.

Cosmic, cap flexibility sure turned the Pistons into a contender this year, right? Cap flexibility don't mean squat unless you can sign franchise talent and franchise talent does not move around in this league easily. Walsh traded away all our assets on the slim chance that the planets will align and McGrady will return to form and Lebron and Bosh desire to play some where else next season. You can talk about flexibility all you want, but have trade assets gives you flexibility too and Walsh just eliminated that option for us.

This trade gave us more options. Before this trade, we had the space to sign one max player. What top FA is coming to Knicks with Gallo and Chandler as the main attraction? With Jeffries numbers cleared out, now we have the option to two bring in 2 FA's. Thats more options and flexibility. Cuury is still on the books for another year which gives up another trading option. If we can sign two max contracts, Curry's contract can be used as part of a package to get a Monta Ellis type contract.

TMS wrote:we not getting Monta Ellis for Eddy Curry w/o throwing in some serious assets, & we seem to be running low on those at this point.

Not necessarily Ellis, but we would have the ability to absorb a contract like that with our max guy or guys in place. Once you have the star player to build around, thats when you go over the cap looking for the right championship piece.

TMS wrote:

Uptown wrote:

TMS wrote:we not getting Monta Ellis for Eddy Curry w/o throwing in some serious assets, & we seem to be running low on those at this point.

Not necessarily Ellis, but we would have the ability to absorb a contract like that with our max guy or guys in place. Once you have the star player to build around, thats when you go over the cap looking for the right championship piece.

i agree if we land Lebron then all the cap concerns go out the window, but i don't see any teams trading us star players for Eddy's expiring... we're realistically looking at players like Elton Brand who is severely underperforming his contract, or someone like Gilbert Arenas who WAS is desperate to unload... maybe even Corey Maggette, or role players w/bloated contracts like Boris Diaw perhaps... unless we're throwing in Wilson or Gallo as a sweetener, or maybe combining Eddy with Lee in a sign & trade package this summer, i don't see any way we're gonna be able to purge him for any better than that.

If Lebron or Wade decides to put on Knik Uni's, you have to think either Chandler or Gallo would be moved because we would stocked with swing players. Personally, I'd move Gallo before Chanlder but I know thats not happening. But yes, Chandlers contract would have to be attached to Currys contract in a move.

TMS wrote:let's say you move Curry in a S&T package involving Lee this summer with Wilson in it as sweetener for 1 of the max FA's, it would give us the ability to sign another impact FA & offer Lebron a chance to play on a true contender next season.

if S&T for 1 max player + another FA (T-Mac? Manu?) + Gallinari isn't enough to lure Lebron to NY, then nothing will.

So the best case scenario is we got Bosh for Lee, Wilson and Curry (Colangelo is going to need picks, but let's assume for now he does not). That leaves Sergio, Douglas, TMac, Gallo and Bosh. Pretty good team. Let's say Lebron refuses to sign an extension in Cleveland and Ferry is looking at sign and trade options. Only Cleveland can offer the 6th year. What can the Knicks offer? Not much, Maybe Gallo and Douglas and 2014, 2016 picks, but that looks too far. Ferry can get a much better package from NJ, Chicago, Clippers. Even Dallas, Spurs.
So not only Lebron has to want NY bad enough to leave a winning team and his home state but he has to forego the 6th year of the max contract. He has to hurt Cleveland by not agreeing to any sign and trade package from any team or take a lesser package from the Knicks (No picks to trade until 2104 at the earliest).
Knicks need him to walk away from Cleveland as the bad guy, I don't think he will be able to do that. That's asking a lot.

Wade on the other hand, I can see walking away from the heat. But maybe to Chicago

WindsorPl wrote:

TMS wrote:let's say you move Curry in a S&T package involving Lee this summer with Wilson in it as sweetener for 1 of the max FA's, it would give us the ability to sign another impact FA & offer Lebron a chance to play on a true contender next season.

if S&T for 1 max player + another FA (T-Mac? Manu?) + Gallinari isn't enough to lure Lebron to NY, then nothing will.

So the best case scenario is we got Bosh for Lee, Wilson and Curry (Colangelo is going to need picks, but let's assume for now he does not). That leaves Sergio, Douglas, TMac, Gallo and Bosh. Pretty good team. Let's say Lebron refuses to sign an extension in Cleveland and Ferry is looking at sign and trade options. Only Cleveland can offer the 6th year. What can the Knicks offer? Not much, Maybe Gallo and Douglas and 2014, 2016 picks, but that looks too far. Ferry can get a much better package from NJ, Chicago, Clippers. Even Dallas, Spurs.
So not only Lebron has to want NY bad enough to leave a winning team and his home state but he has to forego the 6th year of the max contract. He has to hurt Cleveland by not agreeing to any sign and trade package from any team or take a lesser package from the Knicks (No picks to trade until 2104 at the earliest).
Knicks need him to walk away from Cleveland as the bad guy, I don't think he will be able to do that. That's asking a lot.

Wade on the other hand, I can see walking away from the heat. But maybe to Chicago

yes, u bring up valid points... it is asking a lot for Lebron to walk away from CLE & leave them w/nothing, but i don't see any other way to get him at this point... we obviously don't have the assets to get both max guys on S&T deals, & no matter what we don't have enough to get Lebron from CLE in any trade, so unless he signs here outright we're not going to get him... i highly doubt Lebron would be losing out on much anyway by foregoing that 6th year, it's not like we wouldn't sign him to a full max extension anyways after this contract expired, & the Knicks would definitely take care of him til he retired guaranteed... i don't think any other FA would have that guarantee but Lebron definitely would.

as for the leaving CLE as the bad guy part, even if he forces a S&T from CLE, he's going to be looked upon as the bad guy anyway... the mere fact that he's leaving there will resonate w/their fans forever... if he wanted to stay he wouldn't be agreeing to any S&T's to begin with... so that's not really a valid concern... i'm sure Lebron is well aware of all this so if he decides he wants to come to NY, he will make it happen 1 way or the other.

TMS wrote:

JohnWallace44 wrote:I still don't like what Donnie's done here. Basically half of the first round picks selected after Gallo would have been better and more valuable choices. (Gordon, Bayless, Randolph, McGee, Lopez, Thompson, Hickson, Anderson, Batum, Hill, Greene) Then in 2009, when our most glaring need was PG, he passes over Jennings, Teague, Maynor, Collison, Holiday, Lawson, and Beaubois for a project in Hill. What's the logic in a team as bad as the Knicks picking a project guy anyway?

Pick any of the dudes I mentioned from 2008 and any of the dudes from 2009 and we're in a completely different position aren't we? Every yeah you can say we missed on somebody, but that's a lot of possibilities when your guys are looking like busts.

We dealt from a position of weakness because he drafted us into a corner.

Crawford for Al was probably his best move because we got talent coming back.

ZBo for trash would have been OK if he was willing to use the Mobley deal, but instead he sat on it to save the Knicks money. Making the team weaker instead of using that deal will come back to bite us, and not getting some kind of talent for ZBo is rough, but I get why he did it.

The worst non-draft moves that he made was the sentimental treatment of Lee and Nate at the 2009 trade deadline. That was our opportunity to really make a deal. Those two were balling, and could have helped a lot of teams in the playoffs or at the gate, and we didn't move them for picks, or move them to help get Jeffries out of here. That was god-awful, and then he ends up moving Nate for what amounts to Bill Walker. In a vacuum, I like the fact that we have Bill Walker, but is that really all Nate is worth?

It just seems like our GM has been getting schooled since he got here by every team except for Golden State, and I don't know if that's something you want to brag about.

i think everything u said is fair & i agree... even tho i wasn't unhappy w/the Jordan Hill pick i can understand why people were upset over it when our biggest need was for a PG & so many good looking PG prospects were there for the taking... all i can say is i think MDA had a big part in that decision to pass over Brandon Jennings... just a guess but judging from the style of players & personalities that MDA likes to work with, Jennings doesn't seem to fit the mold... MDA obviously played a huge role in getting Gallo here too, but i think he's been a good pick for us regardless of who was available after him personally.

every other point u made here i agree with wholeheartedly.

I dont disagree that MDA may have had input on drafting Gallo, and to be honest I dont have a problem with a coach having input on the players he has to..well..coach. As far as passing on Jennings, I will place that blame on Walsh and his staff, not MDA, as Walsh said himself he didn't have enough information on Jennings at the time.

Chandler is blossoming into a good all-around player who could be great. With David Lee's skill set he would be great as a SF getting some minutes at PF. I suppose the theory is that speed kills. So far ...it's just a theory.

Bosh and not Lebron should be the number one target.

Olbrannon wrote:I just don't see how you can expect to have improved with the loss of any semblance of defense in the paint. To me it seems you could add all the swing men you want and not go anywhere because you have no height. If you add Lebron and any other guard type you are not gonna be more than a perennial 4-5 th place team...just like the Suns were in D'Antoni's best days in Phoenix.

Chandler is blossoming into a good all-around player who could be great. With David Lee's skill set he would be great as a SF getting some minutes at PF. I suppose the theory is that speed kills. So far ...it's just a theory.

Bosh and not Lebron should be the number one target.

The guy deserves a chance to execute this plan. 2 years isnt asking a lot to turn around a 23 win team.

i think i've been very patient w/DW & his plan ever since he got here... always supported every move he made even the Duhon signing when others were down on it... never ragged his hiring of MDA, his selection of Gallo or his selection of Hill... the only moves i've criticized when he made them was the Roberson & Bender signings & those were minor... but there is so much riding on this T-Mac trade with no real fall back plan that i can't just bite my tongue & convince myself everything's gonna be OK when no one knows what Lebron's plans are... i don't wanna hear about re-signing D Lee & signing Joe Johnson to the max as a fall back option either... that's a failure if we just unloaded all those assets to get those 2 guys, i'm sorry... we could have signed Joe Johnson in free agency w/o making this trade & D Lee is NOT worth all we gave up regardless of how much people love him in NY.