TMS wrote:

martin wrote:TMS, what's the beef with Bender? Dude is a 7 footer who can stroke the 3, get rebounds, block shots. He is getting squat minutes. If a second round rookie got those stats and minutes we would all be overly joyed.

have u been watching him play? dude looks horrible. he doesn't belong on the court at all, especially in meaningful minutes early on in the game when the team is trying to get into a groove... who cares if he's a 7 footer if he doesn't play like one? i'd rather have Jordan Hill running the P&R than Bender planting himself beyond the 3 pt. line in the corner on every possession, spot minutes or not... Hill can at least guard players on the other end too... Bender is just not physically capable of doing it, he's got zero lateral movement... this is nothing personal against the guy, i'm sure he's trying his best out there, but he's not helping this team & i think Jordan Hill brings more to the table & should be seeing those minutes instead... & like i said, i think Jeffries' minutes should be reduced & a chunk of it given to Hill as well... we should be getting Hill at least 12-15 minutes a game every game right now no matter what... developing him should be very high on our priority list... seeing Bender & FL getting those minutes should be last on our priority list... as usual we do everything ass backwards.

I expect that Hill's issue is consistency and decision making related. If you look solely at the good things Hill does, but not at the things he does not do well at this point, or does not do at all, you are missing what the coach is looking for/at.

Shonn Greene (sp) just scores.

Jets up 17-7!

Paladin55 wrote:I would like to see Hill getting more minutes, but I am not able to see all the things that MDA sees when the Knicks are practicing? I consider MDA to be a capable coach, and I choose to accept his decisions, even though I admit that I don't always agree with them.

I expect that Hill's issue is consistency and decision making related. If you look solely at the good things Hill does, but not at the things he does not do well at this point, or does not do at all, you are missing what the coach is looking for/at.

i consider MDA to be a capable coach too, but i choose to voice my disagreement w/his decisions when i don't agree with them... i don't think it's wrong to criticize a coach or a player when he's doing things u don't agree with no matter who it is.

any weakness in Hill's consistency or decision making won't be alleviated by having him seeing such sporadic action IMO... he needs to get his feet wet & get into the flow of games, not just see garbage minutes every 2 weeks... i never said he was a finished product, he needs time to develop & mature, & to do that he needs to be seeing playing time... what i see Jordan Hill not doing is looking comfortable on the floor & not knowing exactly where he should be... IMO that's a direct result of not seeing regular action, as it is for any player who sees such sporadic action... guys aren't gonna come back after such a long layoff & explode like Nate did on a regular basis... Hill doesn't have the knee issues that Bender has to overcome either... but what i do see Jordan Hill doing is being extremely active on both ends of the floor & taking good shots when he does get the ball in his hands... matter of fact i think most Knick fans would like to see Hill seeing more playing time.

TMS wrote:just telling u now, Jordan Hill's got plenty more moves in his arsenal than just that midrange J... he showed some of his low post skills vs. the Pistons the other night, faking out Charlie V on a couple sweet up & under moves & toasting him on a very nice turn around fadeaway J in the post... he's also got a nice running hook shot that he hasn't yet shown... & once we finally get a PG in here who can really push the tempo & start the fastbreak you'll start seeing Jordan Hill's ability to run the fastbreak & finish... when Nate runs the fastbreak there's no one else running with him... it's almost like everyone knows he's gonna either force up the shot or try to draw contact... would love to see Hill running the lane instead of Fishlips who blows at least 3 easy layups every game it seems.

i just think all this kid needs is playing time & you all will be more than satisfied w/what he brings to the table... if i'm wrong on him i'm gonna eat crow, but i don't think i will be.

dude i think most people agree with you that hill has some skills and eventually will be a good player but i absolutely agree with paladin when he says that we dont see everything d'antoni sees. it's not all about eating crow and saying you were right or wrong. if miked thought jordan hill gave him the best chance to win every night, i guarentee you he would be playing him. that's not to say he wont be playing him alot more coming up, but to me it seems that d'antoni will do ANYTHING to win basketball games. thats why im not mad about him not playing hill.

TMS wrote:

nyk4ever wrote:

TMS wrote:just telling u now, Jordan Hill's got plenty more moves in his arsenal than just that midrange J... he showed some of his low post skills vs. the Pistons the other night, faking out Charlie V on a couple sweet up & under moves & toasting him on a very nice turn around fadeaway J in the post... he's also got a nice running hook shot that he hasn't yet shown... & once we finally get a PG in here who can really push the tempo & start the fastbreak you'll start seeing Jordan Hill's ability to run the fastbreak & finish... when Nate runs the fastbreak there's no one else running with him... it's almost like everyone knows he's gonna either force up the shot or try to draw contact... would love to see Hill running the lane instead of Fishlips who blows at least 3 easy layups every game it seems.

i just think all this kid needs is playing time & you all will be more than satisfied w/what he brings to the table... if i'm wrong on him i'm gonna eat crow, but i don't think i will be.

dude i think most people agree with you that hill has some skills and eventually will be a good player but i absolutely agree with paladin when he says that we dont see everything d'antoni sees. it's not all about eating crow and saying you were right or wrong. if miked thought jordan hill gave him the best chance to win every night, i guarentee you he would be playing him. that's not to say he wont be playing him alot more coming up, but to me it seems that d'antoni will do ANYTHING to win basketball games. thats why im not mad about him not playing hill.

i'm not trying to make this about being right or wrong on Jordan Hill... everyone has their preferences when it comes to prospects & i don't expect everyone to have liked this kid, most have never seen him play aside from the sporadic action he's gotten on the floor this season... the original point was that this kid should have been seeing minutes over Bender & FL didn't need to be playing 30+ a night... i think that's counterproductive to our longterm benefit... we need to get Hill as much burn as we can manage while not sacrificing wins or losses.

as far as what MDA sees & what we don't, i can't speak on it... all i can speak on is what i see on the court in games... i defy anyone on this forum to tell me based on what they've seen out of Bender this season that he gives us the best chance to win games over Jordan Hill.

you're probably right about hill bringing more to the table than bender, although i really think that bender has played well so far this year, i rarely see him being a negative out on the court - that's not to say that hill would be a negative on the court. i just really like what bender has done so far this year, i know you don't see it, but i think this guy is still working himself into basketball shape again (and while he's doing that hes doing good things on the court) and will make a very cheap quality rotation player next year when we conceivably have a better team playing around him and will need guys like bender to play key parts on our team.

with all that being said, i fully expect jordan hill to be playing more minutes going forth this year and next year i expect him to be a borderline starter based on who we sign in the offseason. i just think miked and donnie walsh know when its the proper time to insert him into the rotation for good and i think when they do he will show to be a pretty good player. i just think right now miked is doing what he thinks is best for this team and i don't have a problem with it.

Jordan should be playing. I feel like this is Sweetney all over again. There was no reason why Sweetney sat the first half of his rookie year and then when he started playing, he was a help. We're not so good that we can't play a top 10 lottery pick...especially one from a big conference school that played a lot.

CrushAlot wrote:

VDesai wrote:Bender stinks. I think the only reason he's been playing is that D'Antoni became enamored with his ability to hit a 3 pt shot every once in a while. But Bender isn't really a good player at this point.

Jordan should be playing. I feel like this is Sweetney all over again. There was no reason why Sweetney sat the first half of his rookie year and then when he started playing, he was a help. We're not so good that we can't play a top 10 lottery pick...especially one from a big conference school that played a lot.

After last night you have to wonder if it isn't more like Camby again. Remember Camby had the misfortune of being traded for Oakley and JVG was so loyal to Oak he wouldn't play him. I am not sure why D'Antoni is playing Bender over Hill but it can't be because he brings more or has more upside for a team 8 games below .500 at the halfway mark of the season. D'Antoni is really viewed with rose colored glasses. Imagine another coach benching the 6th pick in the draft to get his team to the 8 game below .500 because they are competing for a playoff berth. If D'Antoni was in the final year of his contract that might make sense but there is no reason for Hill and Douglas's lack of playing time. D'Antoni needs to 'respect' some more vets that won't be around next year.

Another way to view the situation is that D'Antoni actually respects the process and this is expressed in his 'respect' for the vets, not playing Hill, etc.,.

You try to go for playoffs, given the vet situation you first try to win and make playoffs with the vets. If it works, fine, Hill play next year. If no, then you move to the next step in the process-- playing youngs. He might think of the rookies as players that have their whole careers ahead of them and they will get their shot. Which I would agree with. There is really no rush at this point. Hill and TD are rooks and in no position to demand anything. This is the natural order.

D'Antoni's decisions this season can be thought of as following a natural order. If this is the case, watch for Hill and TD to start playing more if the Knicks keep slipping. But if the Knicks start winning again with the older players, then Hill and TD would stay on the bench more often than not. This is fine. As far as development, sure, game experience is great. But the things they work on outside of games are not to be underestimated.

CrushAlot wrote:

orangeblobman wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

VDesai wrote:Bender stinks. I think the only reason he's been playing is that D'Antoni became enamored with his ability to hit a 3 pt shot every once in a while. But Bender isn't really a good player at this point.

Jordan should be playing. I feel like this is Sweetney all over again. There was no reason why Sweetney sat the first half of his rookie year and then when he started playing, he was a help. We're not so good that we can't play a top 10 lottery pick...especially one from a big conference school that played a lot.

After last night you have to wonder if it isn't more like Camby again. Remember Camby had the misfortune of being traded for Oakley and JVG was so loyal to Oak he wouldn't play him. I am not sure why D'Antoni is playing Bender over Hill but it can't be because he brings more or has more upside for a team 8 games below .500 at the halfway mark of the season. D'Antoni is really viewed with rose colored glasses. Imagine another coach benching the 6th pick in the draft to get his team to the 8 game below .500 because they are competing for a playoff berth. If D'Antoni was in the final year of his contract that might make sense but there is no reason for Hill and Douglas's lack of playing time. D'Antoni needs to 'respect' some more vets that won't be around next year.

Another way to view the situation is that D'Antoni actually respects the process and this is expressed in his 'respect' for the vets, not playing Hill, etc.,.

You try to go for playoffs, given the vet situation you first try to win and make playoffs with the vets. If it works, fine, Hill play next year. If no, then you move to the next step in the process-- playing youngs. He might think of the rookies as players that have their whole careers ahead of them and they will get their shot. Which I would agree with. There is really no rush at this point. Hill and TD are rooks and in no position to demand anything. This is the natural order.

D'Antoni's decisions this season can be thought of as following a natural order. If this is the case, watch for Hill and TD to start playing more if the Knicks keep slipping. But if the Knicks start winning again with the older players, then Hill and TD would stay on the bench more often than not. This is fine. As far as development, sure, game experience is great. But the things they work on outside of games are not to be underestimated.

I guess my question to you are, the Knicks are 8 games under .500, and the 10th seed in a very weak conference, would they be much worse if Hill and Douglas were getting minutes? Is playing limited vets who are not a part of the future being done so the fans can see a team that has a better chance to win or to placate a coach who hasn't committed to the rebuilding process despite the gms open agenda to rid the team of salary so that it can be a part of the free agency frenzy this summmer?

Hmm. They could be significantly worse, only because of the timing of things. Hill and TD earlier in the season, and without the recent meshing of the other players, December might have been decent but worse than what they were able to pull off.

The right time seems to be around the corner, and D'Antoni might have envisioned this on some level.

enough with the MDA resume recitations & tell me if based on what you've seen do u think J Bender should be getting minutes ahead of Jordan Hill... use your own observations & formulate an opinion... don't wait for Jordan Hill to start putting up big numbers & then tell me how MDA so skillfully developed this kid by giving him DNP-CD's for half the season

I saw David Lee give Hill instructions twice on defense on where to be. Once he just gently pushed him into place. This was fine as Lee, a vet, is helping Hill to learn.
One other problem with Hill is his wild, fall away jumper. He looks so awkward with it. At 6'10" I think he could be more natural and smooth. But overall, he played very well on Sat.