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D Lee is the man
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King1
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12/6/2009  4:03 PM
If Lee was playing the four he would get 15 rebounds a game and wouldnt have to guard guys 5 inches taller and 30 lbs heavier every night. Go have Chandler guard the point guard every game or Gallinari guard the point and see what that would look like defensively. If Lee leaves a Lopez, Shaq, Ming, or Howard and let them get there momentum again it is a dunk or a layup. He is playing out of positiuon defensively so we dont know how he would fair against four men in the league. Bottom line none of these 5 men can stop him offenisvely
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TheGame
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12/6/2009  4:12 PM
Lee is a solid defensive rebounder and that is part of defense, but his help defense is none existent and his on the ball defense is average at best. I am just wondering could Hill work as well on those pick and roll plays if given the minutes. Hill is not ready yet, but is paying Lee $10 a year the right move with Hill on the bench. Walsh should trade Lee before the deadline to ensure we get something in return for him.
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TMS
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12/6/2009  4:13 PM
KT had the same disadvantages that Lee had when he was a Knick, guarding guys 3-6 inches taller than him on a nightly basis & he wasn't nearly the athlete that Lee is... that doesn't buy Lee any excuses as far as i'm concerned... u don't have to be tall or heavy to draw a charge in the lane, or to play help defense... u need a desire & willingness to do it... just look at Fishlips, the guy is putrid as a basketball player & skinny as a rail but he puts an effort on playing defense at least... Lee can do the same if he wants to... just cuz he's a good player on the offensive end & an elite rebounder doesn't mean we can't discuss his shortcomings here.
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King1
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12/6/2009  5:02 PM
KT didnt have other players living in the lane and had a HOF center playing with him. Lee has to wrestle with seven footers every night and still has to rebound. Give him a defensive center and it makes him much better.
TMS
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12/6/2009  5:12 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/6/2009  5:16 PM
King1 wrote:KT didnt have other players living in the lane and had a HOF center playing with him. Lee has to wrestle with seven footers every night and still has to rebound. Give him a defensive center and it makes him much better.

i'm talking about when KT was playing undersized at the C position... he was here well after Ewing was gone... & u weren't watching the games if u think guys like Howard Eisley & Moochie Norris were able bodied perimeter defenders while KT was patrolling the paint.

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Cosmic
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12/6/2009  5:19 PM
BRIGGS: We have been down the road before. Musing about how great Curry or Zach would be if only we had a defensive player next to "him". You can't do that as a team. You don't seek out a player with a specific skillset with the thought of using him to offset the failures of another player on your team. For now you are starting TWO players who are deficient in areas of the game. You can't do this and we can't afford to do this. ---- As to teams with cap space that may miss out on the top tier of FAs and look to give David Lee a bigger payday than he deserves just so they can say they didn't miss out on the FA crop of 2010? Unfortunately WE are also in that boat. Please...let us not pull a Chicago Bulls and pay a Jalen Rose twice what he is worth just because nobody else will come!

TMS: You're right on Lee. Good analysis. However I think he is incapable of becoming even an acceptable defender. It is about reaction and if you watch Eddy Curry he too has trouble with moving targets. David Lee does as well. They just don't respond. They remind me of the person you could easily sneak a sucker punch on because you know they have no idea what to do when they see it coming. It's the same idea. It's not going to change. So either they have to be so exceptional with what they do well - or - you have to dump them. I think we need to dump Lee. I mean let us face facts: If he was so good as some say he is we'd most certainly have had more wins than we have had since he came on board. Sure, it's a team game, but if you're going to build up a player as a star then he better be able to carry a team to a few wins. Lee can't. Time to move on. Maybe we can use him to get more 2010 cap room.

Hey, what if you can tell LeBron we can also sign Wade to play with him? What do we want as fans? Lee, Chandler, and Nate back? Or Wade and LeBron? For that is what it comes down to.

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TMS
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12/6/2009  5:34 PM    LAST EDITED: 12/6/2009  5:35 PM
but it doesn't take reaction time to work downlow to front your man & deny him the ball, which i also don't really see him do on a regular basis... when I see David making the smart outlet pass intantaneously after grabbing a rebound, or knowing exactly when to cut to the basket for an easy layup or when to set a screen & roll towards the hoop, i don't think he's got slow reaction time or response time... David has worked hard to develop those skills at the NBA level... if he'd worked hard on developing his defensive skills i have no doubt he'd be a better defender than he is now... i don't think any player is physically incapable of playing solid defense... that just doesn't fly with me... i'm not saying he needs to be All-NBA here, just give forth the same kinda effort on defense that he does on offense... Curry could be a way better defender too if he was willing to work at it, but he's lazy.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Cosmic
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12/6/2009  6:02 PM
Maybe you're right but I just don't know. It seems to be a mental impediment....and not one you can resolve. I think Lee will always be a deer in headlights on the defensive end. Now, if that's not the case, and he's purposely not trying for any given reason, then that is reason enough to not want to keep such a player. So either way it's a problem that is likely not to be resolved by the player in question, and, unlikely to be masked by the acquisition of a player who can do what he can't (thus, you play them together, you think you have no problem, but in reality you now have two - two players who do some things well and other things terrible).

So, well, I'm pretty much convinced that David Lee needs to go. If we can trade him for assets, be it picks or other interesting players on rookie deals, or use him to dump more salary (Ala Walsh who told teams last season that if they wanted Lee they also wanted Curry) then we should press ahead to do it.

Even if we struck out next summer I'd see no reason to turn around and give Lee his 10M+ per year. To do what? Continue to barely win 30 games a year? Nah....no thanks. Lee can take his double doubles somewhere else and let that team's fans wonder why he gives up twice as much on the other end each game.

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TMS
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12/6/2009  6:43 PM
i agree, i wouldn't tie up $10 mil per for D Lee this offseason... unless he's willing to sign some kinda lowball offer, i'd rather trade him for future assets & use that cap space on guys who play on both sides of the ball.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
kam77
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12/6/2009  9:36 PM
Say we sign a MAX guy this summer. Bron, Bosh, JJ whoever it is... and say that leaves about 7 mil left. We offer that to Lee, would he even take it? Seems below his asking price. He walks in this case.

Say we trade JJ and sign an MAx guy, we have about 14 mil left for another Max guy. Not Lee. So nothing for Lee. He walks in this case.

Say we trade JJ and Eddy leaving us able to sign 2 max guys and have about 9-10 mi left over. We could offer it all to Lee and he might take it. Every other rent-a-knick walks in this case.

Seems to me, there's a 1 in 3 chance at best (we would have ot move Eddy and Jared this year) that Lee will accept any offer if we manage to land a Max player.

lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
Markji
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12/6/2009  11:13 PM
TMS wrote:but it doesn't take reaction time to work downlow to front your man & deny him the ball, which i also don't really see him do on a regular basis... when I see David making the smart outlet pass intantaneously after grabbing a rebound, or knowing exactly when to cut to the basket for an easy layup or when to set a screen & roll towards the hoop, i don't think he's got slow reaction time or response time... David has worked hard to develop those skills at the NBA level... if he'd worked hard on developing his defensive skills i have no doubt he'd be a better defender than he is now... i don't think any player is physically incapable of playing solid defense... that just doesn't fly with me... i'm not saying he needs to be All-NBA here, just give forth the same kinda effort on defense that he does on offense... Curry could be a way better defender too if he was willing to work at it, but he's lazy.

I just caught up on the Knicks-Suns game (Thanks Cosmic). Lee played Amar'e very, very well. Defending him and out-rebounding one of the best in the league. You say he has no D??? Give him some credit. Lee is already improving on the "weaker" part of his game.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
TMS
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12/6/2009  11:58 PM
Markji wrote:
TMS wrote:but it doesn't take reaction time to work downlow to front your man & deny him the ball, which i also don't really see him do on a regular basis... when I see David making the smart outlet pass intantaneously after grabbing a rebound, or knowing exactly when to cut to the basket for an easy layup or when to set a screen & roll towards the hoop, i don't think he's got slow reaction time or response time... David has worked hard to develop those skills at the NBA level... if he'd worked hard on developing his defensive skills i have no doubt he'd be a better defender than he is now... i don't think any player is physically incapable of playing solid defense... that just doesn't fly with me... i'm not saying he needs to be All-NBA here, just give forth the same kinda effort on defense that he does on offense... Curry could be a way better defender too if he was willing to work at it, but he's lazy.

I just caught up on the Knicks-Suns game (Thanks Cosmic). Lee played Amar'e very, very well. Defending him and out-rebounding one of the best in the league. You say he has no D??? Give him some credit. Lee is already improving on the "weaker" part of his game.

dude, just read what i wrote & stop generalizing my comments... i explained exactly what his weaknesses are... u don't need to point out that he's a great rebounder, i already know... that's not what this discussion is about.

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Markji
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12/7/2009  7:57 AM    LAST EDITED: 12/7/2009  8:12 AM
TMS wrote:
Markji wrote:
TMS wrote:but it doesn't take reaction time to work downlow to front your man & deny him the ball, which i also don't really see him do on a regular basis... when I see David making the smart outlet pass intantaneously after grabbing a rebound, or knowing exactly when to cut to the basket for an easy layup or when to set a screen & roll towards the hoop, i don't think he's got slow reaction time or response time... David has worked hard to develop those skills at the NBA level... if he'd worked hard on developing his defensive skills i have no doubt he'd be a better defender than he is now... i don't think any player is physically incapable of playing solid defense... that just doesn't fly with me... i'm not saying he needs to be All-NBA here, just give forth the same kinda effort on defense that he does on offense... Curry could be a way better defender too if he was willing to work at it, but he's lazy.

I just caught up on the Knicks-Suns game (Thanks Cosmic). Lee played Amar'e very, very well. Defending him and out-rebounding one of the best in the league. You say he has no D??? Give him some credit. Lee is already improving on the "weaker" part of his game.

dude, just read what i wrote & stop generalizing my comments... i explained exactly what his weaknesses are... u don't need to point out that he's a great rebounder, i already know... that's not what this discussion is about.


READ my comments. I said that he DEFENDED Amar'e very well! That means his Defense was very good. He plays defense hard, banging against bodies bigger than him.

My comments aren't just directed at your comments. I understand your point. Lee's "help defense" is poor. He doesn't take charges.
Then read other posts where they extend that idea to "Lee is very poor defensively so lets get rid of him." Blah! Blah! Blah!

I am saying his overall defense isn't poor when you consider everything that goes into "defense". And his overall game, offense and defense, keeps improving.

Bottom line: I want to keep David Lee if it works out so we still get LBJ.

As an extra comment not directed at you, TMS as this thread title is "DLee is the Man!":
Watch Lee on offense around the basket. He reminds me of Larry Bird. He uses his body extremely well to block out the defender while he switches hands for the layup. He is equally good with either hand and in the Suns game he actually hit a shot (about 5 ft) shooting with his opposite hand (right). These little things really add up and make Lee an excellent player. That is why he is putting up 18.3/10reb and shooting more than 57%.

There are only 2 players who are scoring 18 ppg or more that have a higher FG%age than David Lee (57.3%). They are Dwight Howard (64.6%) and Bynum (57.6%). Lee's FG% is better than Amar'e, Tim Duncan, Boozer, and all of the rest.

The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense. Tom Clancy - author
McK1
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12/7/2009  8:55 AM
guys hate lee's defense but want to throw 15 mil at Amare. bi-polar
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
fishmike
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12/7/2009  10:10 AM
McK1 wrote:guys hate lee's defense but want to throw 15 mil at Amare. bi-polar
tell you what else... I would rather get some help at center and play Lee at the 4 than pay Bosh or Amare $17mm.

IF (and its a big IF) IF we can get the stud wing guy in Lebron, I would rather build size and skill up front than blow my wad on Bosh or Amare. If you sign Bosh or Amare you still dont have a center and you say goodbye to Lee. I would rather sign Lee at something that starts at $8-$9mm and give someone like Camby (he loved playing here) $4-$5mm. I think for $12mm-$14mm thats better bang for your buck. Maybe you get something from Curry (contract year).

After that you can also look to use your expiring contracts for a pricey guy another team might want to lose. Maybe Chander + Curry or JJ for Elton Brand or Okafor.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
McK1
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12/7/2009  10:38 AM
fishmike wrote:tell you what else... I would rather get some help at center and play Lee at the 4 than pay Bosh or Amare $17mm.

IF (and its a big IF) IF we can get the stud wing guy in Lebron, I would rather build size and skill up front than blow my wad on Bosh or Amare. If you sign Bosh or Amare you still dont have a center and you say goodbye to Lee. I would rather sign Lee at something that starts at $8-$9mm .

agree 150%

just wouldn't pursue okafor brand or camby however.

camby is winding his career down.
ok4 is overpaid and was never that good to begin with.
brand is physically finished.

pay Noah!

the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
fishmike
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12/7/2009  11:25 AM
McK1 wrote:
fishmike wrote:tell you what else... I would rather get some help at center and play Lee at the 4 than pay Bosh or Amare $17mm.

IF (and its a big IF) IF we can get the stud wing guy in Lebron, I would rather build size and skill up front than blow my wad on Bosh or Amare. If you sign Bosh or Amare you still dont have a center and you say goodbye to Lee. I would rather sign Lee at something that starts at $8-$9mm .

agree 150%

just wouldn't pursue okafor brand or camby however.

camby is winding his career down.
ok4 is overpaid and was never that good to begin with.
brand is physically finished.

pay Noah!

Camby is totally winding down but is still a good player and we need that kind of length. I think $4-$5mm for 20 minutes a night and you get great rebounding and shot blocking. He can still run like a deer.

OK4 is overpaid which is what makes him viable. Once you sign Lebron, Lee, etc your capped out forever so the money doesnt matter. OK4 would be a great center next to Lee and would really help us defend the basket. JJ's expiring contract and Chandler and cash. Then you would look like this:
PG Douglas
SG Lebron
SF Gallinari
PF Lee
C OK4
Bench: Hill, Camby, Landry

Thats a big long athletic team that can defend and Gallo forces you to space with that shooting he brings. Your only weak spot on D is Lee and he's cleaning the glass so you live with his man 2 man struggles

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
TMS
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12/7/2009  2:56 PM
fishmike wrote:
McK1 wrote:guys hate lee's defense but want to throw 15 mil at Amare. bi-polar
tell you what else... I would rather get some help at center and play Lee at the 4 than pay Bosh or Amare $17mm.

IF (and its a big IF) IF we can get the stud wing guy in Lebron, I would rather build size and skill up front than blow my wad on Bosh or Amare. If you sign Bosh or Amare you still dont have a center and you say goodbye to Lee. I would rather sign Lee at something that starts at $8-$9mm and give someone like Camby (he loved playing here) $4-$5mm. I think for $12mm-$14mm thats better bang for your buck. Maybe you get something from Curry (contract year).

After that you can also look to use your expiring contracts for a pricey guy another team might want to lose. Maybe Chander + Curry or JJ for Elton Brand or Okafor.

for me it's a question of who another max FA would wanna come & play next to... if i'm Lebron or Wade & i have a choice to play next to Bosh or Amare or D Lee & some midlevel C, i'd choose Bosh or Amare... if Lee leaves u still have Jordan Hill who can play in the frontcourt as well... u may not think Bosh or Amare are worth big dollars but there's a reason why those guys are being paid that cheddar, & those guys are marquee names that will attract other bigname FA's to NY, certainly moreso than someone like D Lee will.

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misterearl
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12/12/2009  12:15 PM
Check the rankings at center

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/playerrankings/regularseason/C

sheesh. David Lee is number three.

once a knick always a knick
BigSm00th
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12/12/2009  12:46 PM
the questions with lee are A) what can you get for him via trade and B) how much is he going to want this offseason? i wasn't privy to negotiations and I didn't really follow it this summer, I think Lee is a nice player but I think paying him $10mm/yr is excessive. if its 5 yrs/$40 mil, i'm happy with that deal. if he's asking for 5 yrs/$55 mil, then i'd try to trade the guy. he's a nice player but i don't think he's a game changer. he is definitely good enough to command something on the trade market. could he be pawned off with jeffries or even curry? and if he could, do you make the deal? those are the questions I think you need to be answering if you're donnie walsh, not if lee can play, clearly the guy can play.
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