When u don't know what to do and where to be it can make you hesitant and look like you're not giving effort. Hill was showing energy and explosion but it wasn't effective. In time he'll learn how to use his talents in this system. You're making a mistake in bashing him so early. I'll explain why. In college he made great improvement from freshman yr to junior. That guy was a raw a sushi when he started. Yet he put in work and was highly rated for good reason.
The knicks had a good look at Hill and liked his potential. Key word is potential!!! Meaning he hasn't peaked yet. My bet is that Blair isn't going to get much better than what he is. Hill has a lot more room for growth and a higher upside IMO.
Posted by BRIGGS: 2. Jordan Hill looked SCARY bad. I didnt want to say it--but there it is. I'm sorry but most guys dont even play 3 years at a high D-1 school like AZ and I DO NOT buy the raw and need to understand the speed of the game. I watched a guy who looked like he didnt know what he was doing--it's not rocket science--got beat down court had absolute awful fundamentals on his shot and looked like a pure 4-5 tweener with a low basketball IQ. Lets put the pressure where it should be---Jordan Hill is a guy who should play better next game without excuse. You get picked 8th and play like that even in game 1--you deserve criticism. Atleast he can give more effort.
I think these are both fair and the truth lies somewhere in between. I would say Hill was a low BBIQ player in college, but he was a guy new to the game and showed dramatic improvement on a year to year basis. He went from a role player to one of the better bigs in college. There is definatly a learning curve and major adjustment. I suspect that adjustment will take a couple of years. Hill wont be the first of the last (David West comes to mind) big that needs 80-120 games before he starts to adjust to this level.
That being said, just because he did it at AZ doesnt mean he will do it here. For whatever reason MDA and Walsh were very high on him. Eventually I expect him to show us why.
As for the late first rounder the Knicks wanted Douglas and got Douglas. I cant fault them for that, and after watching Cosmic's video (thanks) you could see his speed to the ball on defense and his ability to quickly close on guys. He looked great pushing the ball as well, but its clear right out of the box he's going to have an impact on D.
Blair was an exciting player @ Pitt but he's 6'5. 6'6 in shoes, and has had two knee operations and isnt exactly slim. I cant blame management for passing on that especially when the guy they wanted was on the board.
fishmike--how come our guy is raw yet guys like Gibson Blair Clark all picked after him played very very well? Those guys look like they know what they were doing. Im sorry to complain--I dont want to but I hope I see a much different player out there Friday. It''s very easy to say first game pre-season but thats where the cycle just starts. I want quality production and smarter and higher more focused effort NOW. This is NOT a HS player. No excuses.
What did the raw Bynum do in his first year? was it worth waiting for? giving him a year or so go get his game up to speed?
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fishmike Posts: 53902
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complain away. Your still under your quota for Hill. Its the endless debate of upside vs. skills isnt it? Clarl was a very polished highly skilled forward in CBB but he's not the athlete that Hill is. Blair is 6'6. Both Blair and Clark have an established skil set and thats going to come out right away. Hill has to adjust. Remember how good Sweetney looked for stretches?
Knicks picked Hill because he's a long athletic guy that can really run with a good head and reputation for being a hard worker. He was a great rebounder and shot blocker in CBB and the thought was he has great potential. He's gonna look bad for stretches and thats ok. Whats more interesting is to see how fast he adjusts and how effective he will be as he does. Lets look for improvement as the preseason progresses.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
MS Posts: 27061
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He took Thabeet and stuck him in the rim. The kid can beast, rebound and produce. He wouldn't have been a good player at 29. If Hill is such a raw project I don't understand why we didn't just take a player like Derozen, Earl Clark or just trade down.
If you like Hill that's fine. He can be productive yes, but he will never dominate or blow you away.
orangeblobman Posts: 27269
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Maybe it's his personality. I know from experience-- used to be really shy as a youth and sometimes, in school, people would think i was stupid because those shyness-related anxieties dominated my thought process in a problem solving situation. So my raw intelligence, computing-power was obscured by the dominating, negative, thought processes.
If this is the case with Hill, which, by accounts of his shyness and 'late-blooming', it very well could be, then we have nothing to worry about. This is something that is overcome with time and there is no reason why his over-thinking should persist in his NBA career. I mean, look at me, I'm awesome now.
WE AIN'T NOWHERE WITH THIS BUM CHOKER IN CARMELO. GIVE ME STARKS'S 2-21 ANY DAY OVER THIS LACKLUSTER CLUSTEREFF.
BRIGGS Posts: 53275
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When u don't know what to do and where to be it can make you hesitant and look like you're not giving effort. Hill was showing energy and explosion but it wasn't effective. In time he'll learn how to use his talents in this system. You're making a mistake in bashing him so early. I'll explain why. In college he made great improvement from freshman yr to junior. That guy was a raw a sushi when he started. Yet he put in work and was highly rated for good reason.
The knicks had a good look at Hill and liked his potential. Key word is potential!!! Meaning he hasn't peaked yet. My bet is that Blair isn't going to get much better than what he is. Hill has a lot more room for growth and a higher upside IMO.
Posted by BRIGGS: 2. Jordan Hill looked SCARY bad. I didnt want to say it--but there it is. I'm sorry but most guys dont even play 3 years at a high D-1 school like AZ and I DO NOT buy the raw and need to understand the speed of the game. I watched a guy who looked like he didnt know what he was doing--it's not rocket science--got beat down court had absolute awful fundamentals on his shot and looked like a pure 4-5 tweener with a low basketball IQ. Lets put the pressure where it should be---Jordan Hill is a guy who should play better next game without excuse. You get picked 8th and play like that even in game 1--you deserve criticism. Atleast he can give more effort.
I think these are both fair and the truth lies somewhere in between. I would say Hill was a low BBIQ player in college, but he was a guy new to the game and showed dramatic improvement on a year to year basis. He went from a role player to one of the better bigs in college. There is definatly a learning curve and major adjustment. I suspect that adjustment will take a couple of years. Hill wont be the first of the last (David West comes to mind) big that needs 80-120 games before he starts to adjust to this level.
That being said, just because he did it at AZ doesnt mean he will do it here. For whatever reason MDA and Walsh were very high on him. Eventually I expect him to show us why.
As for the late first rounder the Knicks wanted Douglas and got Douglas. I cant fault them for that, and after watching Cosmic's video (thanks) you could see his speed to the ball on defense and his ability to quickly close on guys. He looked great pushing the ball as well, but its clear right out of the box he's going to have an impact on D.
Blair was an exciting player @ Pitt but he's 6'5. 6'6 in shoes, and has had two knee operations and isnt exactly slim. I cant blame management for passing on that especially when the guy they wanted was on the board.
fishmike--how come our guy is raw yet guys like Gibson Blair Clark all picked after him played very very well? Those guys look like they know what they were doing. Im sorry to complain--I dont want to but I hope I see a much different player out there Friday. It''s very easy to say first game pre-season but thats where the cycle just starts. I want quality production and smarter and higher more focused effort NOW. This is NOT a HS player. No excuses.
What did the raw Bynum do in his first year? was it worth waiting for? giving him a year or so go get his game up to speed?
Bynum=HS player Sure Ill wait--thats what Knick fans do.
RIP Crushalot😞
fishmike Posts: 53902
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I loved Earl Clark and thought he would be a great MDA fit. He's also from Plainfield where I lived for several years and he went to HS in Rahway. Good kid and a great player. Hill has a bigger stronger body and that translated into stats in school. Hill cant shoot and handle like Clark, so Clark is going to be able to come in right away do more. Clark is never going to be a double double guy, Hill can be. At least I guessing thats the thinking
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
EwingsGlass Posts: 27679
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I think Briggs position is valid and yet completely useless to the extent that it adds no new information. The probability of the Knicks picking a player that will be outperformed by a later draft pick is a near certainty. To make any assumption based upon such a small sample set is pure stupidity. And yet, each year I read countless of posts about which player outperformed who.
Somehow Anthony Randolph needs time to develop but is a raw talent (even though he got dunked on by Tim Thomas and started to cry) meanwhile Hill looks a step behind in his pre-season premiere and is immediately a bust. Gallo is busted, but Blair isn't. Its all BS.
You know I gonna spin wit it
MS Posts: 27061
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Bynum in his first year is a terrible example. He was a 17 year old that didn't play college ball. He had more length and better hands.
Hill looks to be in space when he is out on the court. Much like Frye he is noted as a shotblocker which I just don't see. The truth is the Knicks can't afford to wait. They can't afford to miss. Let's say Gallo get's injured and Hill is a subpar this year. Who the hell is going to want to come play here. Who the hell want's Bosh for 17 million? The Knicks needed a home run on of two years. Gallo has the skills and is a winning type player. However we missed three good guys last year maybe even four. Drafting isn't a sure thing, but from what I have seen and what other have seen Hill is far to raw to be taken where he was. You just can't get beat down the court, this was happening in summer league where he spaced out and lost his man. We need him to suceed much the way we need Gallo, Chandler, Harrington to all play well together this year.
Cleveland doesn't have a surplus of cap space or talent, so you have to be worried with the way the kid has played in limited action. You want guys that want to make an impression, want to make a rotation and want to be a winner.
martin Posts: 78511
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Bynum in his first year is a terrible example. He was a 17 year old that didn't play college ball. He had more length and better hands.
Hill has 5 years of organized bball, probably near that of Bynum, that was my point. Add that to the fact that players do develop at different rates. How can LeBron come out of HS ready to play and not Bynum? Because they have different learning curves.
Either way, it's a moot point. 1 preseason game.
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nixluva Posts: 56258
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So if Hill gets better and more comfortable as the yr goes on don't u think it is a good sign that he can make the pick stand up? Well how about we give him that time to see if he can figure this thing out! He's got completely change the way he's learned how to play PLUS learn a lot more that he hadn't had time to learn yet. In fact many guys don't know how to play the game the way MDA requires. You have have a great knowledge of the game to excel in MDA's system. Isn't it reasonable that a kid with just 5 yrs experience is gonna be lost trying to learn this stuff when vets often find it challenging?
eViL Posts: 25412
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I dont get the drooling over Blair, who is a strong gust of wind away from having half a knee, but the Hill frustration is very valid. Im just puzzled as to exactly what the Knick brain trust saw in him.
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BRIGGS Posts: 53275
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Bynum in his first year is a terrible example. He was a 17 year old that didn't play college ball. He had more length and better hands.
Hill has 5 years of organized bball, probably near that of Bynum, that was my point. Add that to the fact that players do develop at different rates. How can LeBron come out of HS ready to play and not Bynum? Because they have different learning curves.
Either way, it's a moot point. 1 preseason game.
Martin--lets be honest--3 years of high level division 1 basketball at AZ--that is a LOT of experience. If he only played two years of organized basketball in HS--well there are plenty of guys who fit that criteria--he's not from a foreign land where soccer is the main sport or something. Two years of HS and three years at AZ--where he averaged 18-10--how much more amateur experience can you get? It's not a hard game. I didnt like his body language court awareness hustle and we may have seen signs that his basketball IQ is just low. Even if you are not playing well hustle and intensity can make up for many things.
RIP Crushalot😞
BRIGGS Posts: 53275
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Also and final from me--I will go back to this point
We needed a talent upgrade at PG in a very heavy laden PG draft. To BYPASS all of those PGs to take a Jordan Hill means that the Knicks scouting staff mustve been super high on him. So to me that puts an expectation level--I can understand a guy like Gallinari taking some time because it is a new country--but Hill should be able to step in and play now--it's not like we were a 49 win team. We were WILLING to lose Lee and Hill was his replacement and I think that they may have over estimated his talent level and now are in excuse overdrive already.
RIP Crushalot😞
Bippity10 Posts: 13999
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Bynum in his first year is a terrible example. He was a 17 year old that didn't play college ball. He had more length and better hands.
Hill has 5 years of organized bball, probably near that of Bynum, that was my point. Add that to the fact that players do develop at different rates. How can LeBron come out of HS ready to play and not Bynum? Because they have different learning curves.
Either way, it's a moot point. 1 preseason game.
Martin--lets be honest--3 years of high level division 1 basketball at AZ--that is a LOT of experience. If he only played two years of organized basketball in HS--well there are plenty of guys who fit that criteria--he's not from a foreign land where soccer is the main sport or something. Two years of HS and three years at AZ--where he averaged 18-10--how much more amateur experience can you get? It's not a hard game. I didnt like his body language court awareness hustle and we may have seen signs that his basketball IQ is just low. Even if you are not playing well hustle and intensity can make up for many things.
2 months ago you said he was the right pick considering the circumstances. So I will take this as an admission that your assessment of his skills was way off base.
I just hope that people will like me
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Also and final from me--I will go back to this point
We needed a talent upgrade at PG in a very heavy laden PG draft. To BYPASS all of those PGs to take a Jordan Hill means that the Knicks scouting staff mustve been super high on him. So to me that puts an expectation level--I can understand a guy like Gallinari taking some time because it is a new country--but Hill should be able to step in and play now--it's not like we were a 49 win team. We were WILLING to lose Lee and Hill was his replacement and I think that they may have over estimated his talent level and now are in excuse overdrive already.
Wow, I think you are making alot of assumptions with zero to back it up. Firstly, Lee was a restricted FA which as you know means that the Knicks could match any offer. I believe DW was quooted at saying that he would infact match any reasonable offer that did not impact....you know what, I can't do this it's just to boring to repeat the same stuff ad naseum.
MS Posts: 27061
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I think that everyone is sick and tired or waiting is the problem and we have seen the organization making bad selections for years. Nate, Chandler, Lee are all nice selection and good player. But we saw Frye taken over player like Bynum and Granger who most were very high on, we saw Balkman and Collins taken ahead of Rondo and Lowry when we needed a pg, and we saw Gallo (jury is out) taken ahead of Lopez, Gordon and even Randolph.
The Knicks don't have a clear starter right now outside of Lee from the 7 years we have been terrible and a joke organization. Watching guys flourish and hoping our draft pick turns out to be healthy and or effective is nerve racking. Because if we don't get Lebron we are going to the lottery again next season most likely, not to mention we don't have a pick in this years draft.
Markji Posts: 22753
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I dont get the drooling over Blair, who is a strong gust of wind away from having half a knee, but the Hill frustration is very valid. Im just puzzled as to exactly what the Knick brain trust saw in him.
This sums it up quite well.
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.
Tom Clancy - author
nixluva Posts: 56258
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From the drafting standpoint I think we've done very well. We can't base everything what we did or didn't do in the past. This draft was guard heavy, but not every guard fit our needs or the temperment Walsh and MDA want. So that limited the choices. Aside from S. Curry they didn't like a lot of the guards that high. They had Hill high on their board and took him to fill another need for a big with speed and defense.
I'm still trying to figure out how so many know we messed up after summer league and a single preseason game!!!
thanks pal, you're always right!!