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Stop Reading The Papers, Random Blogs and Gossip Nonsense And Have Some Personal Patience For Donnie In 2010
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Bippity10
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9/15/2009  2:34 PM
I personally do not endorse Walsh. I think he has a lot of work to do. But again I can't argue with the position we are in. He needs to be shrewd and like all rebuilding teams luck will play a factor. That's part of rebuilding. But what I do like about Walsh is everytime one of his plans falls through I look at our situation and I see cap space and young players. I'm yet to get an explanation as to why that is bad other than, "because we won't be good this year"
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RemBee76
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9/15/2009  2:54 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
If you think back to the pre-draft talk everyone, including Walsh, said that this was a weak draft and there was not much difference between pick 6-20. So I think that is why he did not feel a need to "tank" in order to move up in the draft.

We ended up at 6th. With less concern for bringing in productive players (Harrington, trading for Hughes, we could have let Zach go for a trade exception) we would very easily have been within the range where there was a difference. Not to mention that, as you know, our chances of ending up in the top three in the lottery would have improved dramatically.
Posted by Bippity10:
No matter what you say about his moves we still are lead by 2 lottery picks, 2-4 recent first rounders and loads of upcoming cap space.

Al Harrington was/is our starting PF and leading scorer last year, and likely will be this year. Larry Hughes likely starts for us at the two. We are starting either Curry, Darko or Lee at center, and at point we have an inconsistent vet who will be playing for his next contract. We aren't "lead" by our two lottery picks. Not by a long shot.
Posted by Bippity10:
I do however have to ask, what do you mean D'Antoni isn't the coach you hire when you are rebuilding? Who do you hire?

One who wouldn't demand the highest salary in the league, for a start. We brought in D'Antoni to win games, and he wouldn't have come here if he thought his GM's plan was to lose.
Posted by Bippity10:
Without him or any other big name free agent we are still left in a position to improve. Just not on the time frame that New Yorkers demand

This is my central problem with your argument. At no point am I advocating for a certain time frame, or one "demanded" by New Yorkers. I'm talking about Walsh's timeframe, the one he set out for himself on day one. 2010.

You could argue that improving the team and winning games wasn't a goal Walsh felt he needed to meet within that timeframe. I don't think that’s true, and have presented plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Do with it what you like.



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martin
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9/15/2009  3:36 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by Bippity10:
If you think back to the pre-draft talk everyone, including Walsh, said that this was a weak draft and there was not much difference between pick 6-20. So I think that is why he did not feel a need to "tank" in order to move up in the draft.

We ended up at 6th. With less concern for bringing in productive players (Harrington, trading for Hughes, we could have let Zach go for a trade exception) we would very easily have been within the range where there was a difference. Not to mention that, as you know, our chances of ending up in the top three in the lottery would have improved dramatically.

Knicks ended up 8th. 2.8% chance of getting the top pick (the only one that really really mattered in this draft). If we lost 8 more we may have shot up to 6th in a 3-way tie for a 7.5% chance at first place. Losing an additional 5 more on top of that would have been key and put us in a tie with LAC and WAS for 2nd/3rd worst. From there it's still a crapshot to the Blake pick.

Knicks were lucky (I guess in a way to further this losing effort) that Gallo was out and Marbury KO'ed himself and that Duhon couldn't hold up. That has to account for some nice loses.

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Bippity10
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9/15/2009  3:41 PM
Rembee: Let me preface my remarks by saying thank you for having a rational conversation about this. Agree or disagre I appreciate your points.

Now here are all the areas where you are wrong

1.) Walsh is on record as saying that after #1 there was not much difference between the top picks and those you'd get further down the draft. He felt you could get a good player in the teens as well. Whether you and I agree with him is irrelevant. This is what he felt so he was not concerned with trading to lose more games. His thought(because he said it) was to earn a playoff spot and try to change the culture here. Get rid of the sting of losing and let the young guys experience success. It appears that your definition of "building through the draft" is different than mine. To you, it's lose games and get a higher pick. To me, it's use the draft as a tool for improvement. Whether that is to pick wisely or trade for quality it really doesn't matter. There is no formula to winning. What I do know is that he used a lottery pick two straight years and traded for a 2nd first rounder this year, so despite all the trades he still is appears to be using the draft. The only thing he did not do was tank.

2.)the only players that have somewhat of a guarantee of being part of the long-term plans is Gallo and Chandler(and by virtue of being new, Hill and Douglas). That has not only been implied it has also been said by Walsh. It is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that this team is chandler's and Gallo's. Whether they choose to take it, is up to them. It is there team.

3.) When you rebuild why is it a requirement to find someone that isn't the highest paid? You still haven't answered the question. If Phil Jackson decided he wanted to coach here over the last summer do we turn him down because his salary will be high?.......... Do you hear D'Antoni complaining? Everytime I hear him he seems to be on the same page as Walsh. So what's the problem? Walsh has been 100% up front with us about his plan, do you think he lied to D'Antoni? There was no mystery in NY. It was going to take time to rebuild this thing. No coach was coming in thinking differently. It only seems to be the fans that think we can improve this thing overnight.

4.) I think in NY part of the problem is we clamor for winning year over year. If we stunk last year, than go out and get someone that makes us better this year. But in reality when you rebuild it's not that simple. That's what Isiah tried to do. To truly rebuild you map out a long-term plan. You then guide yourself in that direction. Opportunities will come up that may make you alter your plan or they may not. To be successful you have to always think about the long-term. I have no doubt that without a pick this year Walsh wanted to improve the team this year. But I also have no doubt that he was not willing to sacrifice a long-term true chance at success to bog down the salary cap again. Why do I know this, because he has told us this. I'm okay with that. I wanted to make a move that made us better this year. He-ll yeah I did. But I'm also aware of the situation Laymas put us in and realize that this will be a tough go.

Regardless of how little Walsh did this summer, if you pull back and look at the big picture: 2 lottery picks, 2-4 recent first rounders and ending contracts galore I'm still not sure what the issue is. It's the anti Laymas situation.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 15-09-2009 3:43 PM]
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RemBee76
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9/15/2009  4:13 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
His thought(because he said it) was to earn a playoff spot and try to change the culture here.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Though I did a few posts ago.
Posted by Bippity10:
2.)the only players that have somewhat of a guarantee of being part of the long-term plans is Gallo and Chandler(and by virtue of being new, Hill and Douglas).

Those are the guys who will be here after next year, yes. They are not the guys who will be leading us this year.
Posted by Bippity10:
Walsh has been 100% up front with us about his plan, do you think he lied to D'Antoni?

Nope. Which, again, was my point. I think he told him he wanted to make the playoffs (see first point above) which isn't typically something that you say when you expect losing to be "part of the process."
Posted by Bippity10:
I think in NY part of the problem is we clamor for winning year over year

There is no problem. My point, which we now seem to agree on, is that Walsh wanted to win, and these were not expectations forced upon him by rabid fans on the leash of Mark Berman. They were expectations he put on himself, as putting a good team together was integral to Walsh's plan to attract a top FA to NYC.

I don't think even he saw signing a 23 yr old point to a contract that would have been comparable to the lottery pick we would have had next season had Isiah not traded it away as anything comparable to Layden's blunders (though signing Kidd to three years at 5 per might have been).

But really, we are in agreement. Yeaaa for UK.


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kam77
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9/15/2009  5:53 PM
Do we know if Walsh has the ability to say..."we will be bad for a while"?

His marching orders for putting a playoff type team on the floor may come from above him.
lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
misterearl
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9/15/2009  6:01 PM
The Answer Man Counts Down To Training Camp and Eddy Curry Stepping On A Truck Scale At A Highway Weigh Station

Q. rembee - So it’s cool to be positive, aren’t we so going in to every season?

A. What do you mean "we"?

The Knicks off season has been a total bust. Our starting point guard is still Chris Duhon, David Lee and Nate are unsigned, Danilo has yet to test his tender lower lumbar region in combat, Warren Carter was arrested for his notorious habit of driving cars the wrong way down one way streets, and Lebron's Moms ain't feeling New York.

Other than that, everything is cool

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Bippity10
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9/15/2009  7:33 PM
Posted by RemBee76:
Posted by Bippity10:
His thought(because he said it) was to earn a playoff spot and try to change the culture here.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Though I did a few posts ago.
Posted by Bippity10:
2.)the only players that have somewhat of a guarantee of being part of the long-term plans is Gallo and Chandler(and by virtue of being new, Hill and Douglas).

Those are the guys who will be here after next year, yes. They are not the guys who will be leading us this year.
Posted by Bippity10:
Walsh has been 100% up front with us about his plan, do you think he lied to D'Antoni?

Nope. Which, again, was my point. I think he told him he wanted to make the playoffs (see first point above) which isn't typically something that you say when you expect losing to be "part of the process."
Posted by Bippity10:
I think in NY part of the problem is we clamor for winning year over year

There is no problem. My point, which we now seem to agree on, is that Walsh wanted to win, and these were not expectations forced upon him by rabid fans on the leash of Mark Berman. They were expectations he put on himself, as putting a good team together was integral to Walsh's plan to attract a top FA to NYC.

I don't think even he saw signing a 23 yr old point to a contract that would have been comparable to the lottery pick we would have had next season had Isiah not traded it away as anything comparable to Layden's blunders (though signing Kidd to three years at 5 per might have been).

But really, we are in agreement. Yeaaa for UK.

Again Rembee I think you miss the long term plan. D'Antoni and Walsh have both been 100% in agreement of the long-term plan. Walsh has said from the beginning what his plan was. He said this even before D'Antoni was hired, so what do you think D'Antoni missed? And if D'Antoni was misinformed why is he not complaining? Until he does I don't think we can assume that D'Antoni was under the impression we would be going for teh gold this year by signing a stable of free agents. Right now that seems to be more of your impression than D'Antoni's. Until it comes out of his mouth it's just speculation. Speculation that I would expect to see in the NY post

Losing is part of this process. That does not mean that if your young guys are doing well and battling for a playoff spot that you cut ties and tank for a top 3 pick. That's not losing, that's demoralizing. Walsh took a shot at the playoffs, but he did so without ruining the long term plan. The long-term plan is all I care about. Shooting for the playoffs was a move for the young guys, a move for the fans and a move to change the culture. We came up short, but the message was still sent and may serve us well. But by signing short term contracted veterans it changed nothing of Walsh's plan so how could anyone(D'Antoni) be mislead. If Walsh had gone out and signed guys with 3-5 year contracts I could see your point. But by signing guys with short 1-2 year contracts it seems clear to me, that we said "let's take a shot to get some experience in the playoffs, if it doesn't work we are still in line for 2010, which is what we've been articulating since day one". What's the issue with this?

Listen Gallinari and Chandler are the only guys in the long-term plan. Therefore it is there team. Now Harrington may step up and take the lead or Hughes or Curry or Jared Jeffries. Who friggin knows who will step up because currently there are no leaders. But Rembee if you are a young guy on my team and I tell you "Rembee I'm pretty sure most of this roster will be gone this year and next, but I want to make it clear that you will be here beyond next year." Guess what I told you. I just told you it's your team. Whether you choose to take that challenge will say a lot about you as a player. But trust me, it's Gallo and Wilson's team right now! The rest are just renting space.

Again back to the winning. We are again looking at short term vs. long-term and this is the point you seem to be missing. D'Antoni and Walsh 100% understand the long road ahead of them. They have articulated the 2010 plan to get under the cap and pursue free-agents and have never once deviated from it. They have flirted with deviating at least twice but so far are right on target for it. Whether they shoot for the playoffs this year or last year or not is only relevant if you deviate from this plan. Either way, you are tearing it down by getting rid of players for draft picks, ending salaries or young players. Any one of these fits into the long-term goal. So what is the issue? What is misleading?

Still waiting for you to answer the why not D'Antoni for a rebuilding team question.



[Edited by - bippity10 on 15-09-2009 7:37 PM]

[Edited by - bippity10 on 15-09-2009 7:41 PM]
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BasketballJones
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9/15/2009  7:36 PM
blah blah blah blah
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Bippity10
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9/15/2009  7:42 PM
Nope. Which, again, was my point. I think he told him he wanted to make the playoffs (see first point above) which isn't typically something that you say when you expect losing to be "part of the process."

Pure speculation, where did you get that? The papers?
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Bippity10
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9/15/2009  7:42 PM
Posted by BasketballJones:

blah blah blah blah

Shut up you jackash
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Stop Reading The Papers, Random Blogs and Gossip Nonsense And Have Some Personal Patience For Donnie In 2010

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