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Donnie - stop messing with the fanbase and FA's in general
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JohnWallace44
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9/8/2009  9:09 PM
From the point that we passed the Winter 2009 trade deadline the 2010 plan was done. I've been saying that and so has Briggs ever since.

For whatever reason Donnie couldn't put a package together to get rid of Jeffries and its been over from that point.

We've been putting up the numbers to support that ever since, but it took Stern's recent memo for it to sink in with Donnie. I wish his staff could do a little better than a couple of bloggers.

The two Max player plan has been done since the deadline. My opinion has been that without room for two players you're not going to get one of them, they'll just stay where they are.

Donnie should accept that, move forward and use that to his advantage. There are plenty of teams that are desperate to compete for the 2010 FA's that are closer to competing than we are. We can take on 2010 salary that expires in 2011.

In 2011, all, not some of our bad contracts would be gone and we could actually do this thing right and get Durant and Melo or some combination like that. Think Durant wouldn't pick NYC over OKC? He doesn't have any personal ties to the city like LeBron does.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
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Moonangie
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9/8/2009  10:01 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:
LeBron is just an excuse to not build a team at this point, and I have to wonder if its just a front to cut salary and make the team easier to sell to a potential buyer.

You should bookmark this topic and check back at the end of next summer to see if you still feel that way. Until then, try not to create the next train wreck. Rash moves by the NYK has not panned out well over the past 15 years. No reason to suspect they will
Posted by JohnWallace44:

From the point that we passed the Winter 2009 trade deadline the 2010 plan was done. I've been saying that and so has Briggs ever since.

For whatever reason Donnie couldn't put a package together to get rid of Jeffries and its been over from that point.

You are assuming JJ and Eddy can't be moved before the deadline. If either is moved, the two player in 2010 plan is back on. If not, then we at least can try for Lebron or kick it to 2011. So while the "plan" isn't locked into the best possible outcome, it is still a flexible and promising direction for the team.
Posted by JohnWallace44:

We've been putting up the numbers to support that ever since, but it took Stern's recent memo for it to sink in with Donnie. I wish his staff could do a little better than a couple of bloggers.

The two Max player plan has been done since the deadline. My opinion has been that without room for two players you're not going to get one of them, they'll just stay where they are.

You mean because they will be as impatient as you? And can't bear to wait until the following summer while spending a year getting tight with their new teammates? Yeah, with Gallo and the Mayor blossoming, Tony playing lockdown perimeter D (something we haven't seen in a LONG time), Darko protecting the paint (another novelty for the Knicks), and N8 & DLee playing with a chip on their shoulders and in contract year?

Sorry John, but your assessment is unrealistically bleak. I understand the feeling, after such a long stretch of incompetent management. For me, the new guys (DW & MDA) represent a fresh change and I am prepared to take a runner on them until things pan out one way or the other. I could just as easily see the beginnings of something incredible in NYC basketball, based on a particular outcome of "the plan".
Posted by JohnWallace44:


Donnie should accept that, move forward and use that to his advantage. There are plenty of teams that are desperate to compete for the 2010 FA's that are closer to competing than we are. We can take on 2010 salary that expires in 2011.

In 2011, all, not some of our bad contracts would be gone and we could actually do this thing right and get Durant and Melo or some combination like that. Think Durant wouldn't pick NYC over OKC? He doesn't have any personal ties to the city like LeBron does.

In 2011, pretty much all of our crap paper will be gone. And yes, if we miss on Lebron, I think a nice duo to bring in 2011 would be Durant and Melo. But the King is plan A.

[Edited by - Moonangie on 09-08-2009 10:36 PM]
JohnWallace44
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9/8/2009  10:57 PM
Moon, you sound like a real impartial poster.

The Rooster,the Mayor and Douglas will all be hitting their stride at the end of the year huh? Isiah's GMing style was to assume everything would work out perfectly and he got burned again and again. I think that you have to assume that you'll hit on some and you'll miss on others.

Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
Allanfan20
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9/8/2009  11:01 PM
Johnwallace, but your expectations are allowed to be in stride too. Wilson is off to a good start. Gallo is our lotto pick, so I'm pretty sure we're allowed to have someone decent expectations for him, since he's supposedly healthy. I understand what you're saying about Douglas, but we're allowed to root for the guy.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
franco12
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9/8/2009  11:48 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:

John Wallace--I am with you for the most part. I am thankful that Walsh has been disciplined to fa in 2010 and giving Darko a solid chance--I am cool with that. I think after that he has been poor from drafting and being overly conservative on down. If you disagree with something--you are whining--but I am my own man--a leader not a follower and certainly no cheerleader. Im not in love with our young players and we are going to have to renounce a boatload of players if we actually get a FA. What I fear is 5-6 more years of being terrible. It's like IT 100% the other way. We shouldve hedged our bets with Sessions--that was just plain terrible for the $ he got. I think he couldve been a 17 point 10 assists 5 rebound 46-48% PG in 38 minutes here. Ramon Sessions making 4mm per year has NOTHING to do with our cap--I GUARANTEE we WILL NOT get a Better second FA next year than Sessions. Jesus I hope we get a good first FA or we can go under the covers for 5 more years.

[Edited by - BRIGGS on 09-08-2009 7:48 PM]

Something seeming lost in the discussion from Briggs & JWallace is this franchise has been driven into the ground. We traded 4 first rounders away for Cancerbury and Curry - two players who last season basically ate up cap room, jinxed the celtics and ballooned out to 380 pounds.

This isn't turning a one year losing streak around. We have a franchise that has been fooling itself into thinking 'One More Move' would put us back into the play offs, back over the edge.

Briggs, your relentless fixation on Ramon Sessions & J Wallace's 'Put a competitive team on the floor after 1 year' are identical to the way Dolan has forced this organization to misfire all of these years.

I am worried about this LBJ strategy - it is all the eggs in one basket. I'm worried that even if we get Lebron, we'll still stink because we have LBJ and 11 NBDL players. I'm worried that we don't get Lebron and instead shoot our load on a second tier talent.

But I have hope that a realistic 4-5 year effort at turning around this franchise is underway.

We are so far from having a solid franchise, that adding or not adding a Ramon Sessions really doesn't make a difference one way or the other.
30andOverClub
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9/9/2009  12:05 AM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

From the point that we passed the Winter 2009 trade deadline the 2010 plan was done. I've been saying that and so has Briggs ever since.

For whatever reason Donnie couldn't put a package together to get rid of Jeffries and its been over from that point.

We've been putting up the numbers to support that ever since, but it took Stern's recent memo for it to sink in with Donnie. I wish his staff could do a little better than a couple of bloggers.

The two Max player plan has been done since the deadline. My opinion has been that without room for two players you're not going to get one of them, they'll just stay where they are.

Donnie should accept that, move forward and use that to his advantage. There are plenty of teams that are desperate to compete for the 2010 FA's that are closer to competing than we are. We can take on 2010 salary that expires in 2011.

In 2011, all, not some of our bad contracts would be gone and we could actually do this thing right and get Durant and Melo or some combination like that. Think Durant wouldn't pick NYC over OKC? He doesn't have any personal ties to the city like LeBron does.

First off, Durant is a restricted free agent in 2011. We can't sign him outright and even if he tells OKC that he wants out, you're going to have to trade a boatload of players and picks to get him because you'll be competing with 28 other teams.

Secondly, what happens if Carmelo signs an extension prior to 2011? Who do you go after then? Right now, none of LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Amare, Dirk, or Joe Johnson have signed extensions with their teams. Which means most of them, if not ALL of them, are going to be free agents next year. To not wait one more year to make a play at one (or more if we're lucky) of them would be down right irresponsible.
Allanfan20
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9/9/2009  12:32 AM
Posted by 30andOverClub:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

From the point that we passed the Winter 2009 trade deadline the 2010 plan was done. I've been saying that and so has Briggs ever since.

For whatever reason Donnie couldn't put a package together to get rid of Jeffries and its been over from that point.

We've been putting up the numbers to support that ever since, but it took Stern's recent memo for it to sink in with Donnie. I wish his staff could do a little better than a couple of bloggers.

The two Max player plan has been done since the deadline. My opinion has been that without room for two players you're not going to get one of them, they'll just stay where they are.

Donnie should accept that, move forward and use that to his advantage. There are plenty of teams that are desperate to compete for the 2010 FA's that are closer to competing than we are. We can take on 2010 salary that expires in 2011.

In 2011, all, not some of our bad contracts would be gone and we could actually do this thing right and get Durant and Melo or some combination like that. Think Durant wouldn't pick NYC over OKC? He doesn't have any personal ties to the city like LeBron does.

First off, Durant is a restricted free agent in 2011. We can't sign him outright and even if he tells OKC that he wants out, you're going to have to trade a boatload of players and picks to get him because you'll be competing with 28 other teams.

Secondly, what happens if Carmelo signs an extension prior to 2011? Who do you go after then? Right now, none of LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Amare, Dirk, or Joe Johnson have signed extensions with their teams. Which means most of them, if not ALL of them, are going to be free agents next year. To not wait one more year to make a play at one (or more if we're lucky) of them would be down right irresponsible.

Not to mention that the GM saying "OK, there's no way one would come if we can't lure a second one. We might as well jump ship and go for the lesser 2011" is quitting on the team and New York. THAT is worthy of being fired.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
TMS
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9/9/2009  1:05 AM
i'm actually happy he didn't do anything... i'd rather stay put & keep the focus on 2010 than sign up some mediocre FA's that won't take us to the next level... Jason Kidd was never a reality, he wanted a longterm deal & Donnie wasn't willing to give him one... & who the hell wants Grant Hill? he's past his prime & has all kinds of health concerns... i would only wanna sign him to a 1 year contract as well... Ramon Sessions would have been a solid signing but he's not exactly some superstar that we can't do without either... next year is when Donnie needs to get off his arse & do some big things... until then i'm holding off on judgement.
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BasketballJones
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9/9/2009  1:15 AM
Hey, I wasn't planning to watch the Knicks this season anyway, so it's all good.
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JohnWallace44
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9/9/2009  8:47 AM
Look, here's the larger point. We had Isiah, who tried to game the system by taking on every upside player in his reach no matter the cost or fit. Now we have Donnie trying to game the system by refusing to compete in order to sign one of the NBA's premier players and shortcut the Knicks to contention.

Both plans are flawed.

Can't we just build normally? I know that it is asking a lot to expect our GM to be able to sign guys to good contracts and make smart draft choices, but seriously, that's your job Donnie.

No championship team has ever been built the way that Isiah tried to or the way that Donnie is trying to. I can't think of a top 4 team that has done it this way.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
knicks1248
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9/9/2009  9:27 AM
Walsh at this point is hoping he can get off to a quick start and possible package jeff or curry, like zack and JC at some point before the deadline. What else is pretty funny is how guys keep mentioning wilson and gallo as our potentially goto guys and are the future of this franchise. Yet I strongly feel that if walsh can dump more salary there gone as well.

Then the other ridiculous thought is that the 09/10 season is a wash...really... why would that be part of any plan, that just doesnt make any sense whatsoever, you have absolutely nothing to gain by going that route, all that does is decrease players value, theres no pick to be had and we will look even less attractive then we already are.

I feel you JohnWall, and im not completely buying the fact that the media is causing us to feel this way by reporting whats being told to them, there hasn't been one over the top story this summer, it is what it is, if he's been making soft offers to a few FA and there lauging at him so be it.

At this point the best i can ask for is that our current roster steps the hell up
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TheGame
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9/9/2009  9:56 AM
Any plan that has us giving a top-10 pick to Utah is flawed. You think there is pressure now, wait until Knick fans see Utah take some stud in the next year's draft with our pick because Walsh was tanking the season for 2010.

Bottomline, this team needs to make the playoffs or else get LeBron next summer and I don't think we can get LeBron unless we make the playoffs. We have the talent. With an improved Gallo and Chandler, a returning Nate and Lee, and the addition of Darko and Curry, we have more talent than alot of teams. We just have to come together during the regular season and get off to a fast start. Gallo, Darko, and Curry are the keys. If Darko can provide solid defense, Gallo can come in and put up an efficient 15 pts, and Curry can avoid turning the ball over every other minute, this team should contend for the eight seed.

HAving cap space is nice, but if this truly is the basketball mecca, then the Knicks need to be focused on how they are going to make the playoffs next year. Walsh has made his decision regarding the team and got MDA a big man. Now MDA needs to get this team into the playoffs.

[Edited by - thegame on 09-09-2009 09:57]

[Edited by - thegame on 09-09-2009 09:58]
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Marv
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9/9/2009  10:05 AM
Posted by TheGame:

Any plan that has us giving a top-10 pick to Utah is flawed. You think there is pressure now, wait until Knick fans see Utah take some stud in the next year's draft with our pick because Walsh was tanking the season for 2010.

Bottomline, this team needs to make the playoffs or else get LeBron next summer and I don't think we can get LeBron unless we make the playoffs. We have the talent. With an improved Gallo and Chandler, a returning Nate and Lee, and the addition of Darko and Curry, we have more talent than alot of teams. We just have to come together during the regular season and get off to a fast start. Gallo, Darko, and Curry are the keys. If Darko can provide solid defense, Gallo can come in and put up an efficient 15 pts, and Curry can avoid turning the ball over every other minute, this team should contend for the eight seed.

HAving cap space is nice, but if this truly is the basketball mecca, then the Knicks need to be focused on how they are going to make the playoffs next year. Walsh has made his decision regarding the team and got MDA a big man. Now MDA needs to get this team into the playoffs.

[Edited by - thegame on 09-09-2009 09:57]

[Edited by - thegame on 09-09-2009 09:58]

make the team as good as possible and add NO salary commitments beyond this year. and if possible lose curry/jeffries. that's the plan.

no one will be crying over utah's pick. that stuff floats by real quickly. how churned up are you about kirk snyder? remember him? ty Thomas? joakim noah? it's the past and these guys didn’t become studs. so don't worry about how long people will look in the rear view mirror.
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9/9/2009  10:36 AM
Ty Thomas could have been Brandon Roy or Rudy Gay.

There is a lot of talent in next year's draft. Remember all the guys that pulled out of this year's draft? Plus half the dudes on Kentucky and UNC.

Donnie is playing a dangerous game. If he does not make this team competitive to where we can improve on last year's win total, then he's just ratcheting up the pressure even more to get LeBron. He's putting his job in LeBron's hands. I wouldn't do that.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
Allanfan20
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9/9/2009  11:09 AM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Ty Thomas could have been Brandon Roy or Rudy Gay.

There is a lot of talent in next year's draft. Remember all the guys that pulled out of this year's draft? Plus half the dudes on Kentucky and UNC.

Donnie is playing a dangerous game. If he does not make this team competitive to where we can improve on last year's win total, then he's just ratcheting up the pressure even more to get LeBron. He's putting his job in LeBron's hands. I wouldn't do that.

And if we don't get LeBron, then we still have capspace, and/or we can still sign Chris Bosh. It sucks that we don't get him, but capspace isn't placing all your eggs in one basket. We have eggs in baskets for years to come, until we do finally do go over the cap.
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martin
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9/9/2009  11:49 AM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Look, here's the larger point. We had Isiah, who tried to game the system by taking on every upside player in his reach no matter the cost or fit. Now we have Donnie trying to game the system by refusing to compete in order to sign one of the NBA's premier players and shortcut the Knicks to contention.

Both plans are flawed.

Can't we just build normally? I know that it is asking a lot to expect our GM to be able to sign guys to good contracts and make smart draft choices, but seriously, that's your job Donnie.

No championship team has ever been built the way that Isiah tried to or the way that Donnie is trying to. I can't think of a top 4 team that has done it this way.

I dont know why you keep referring to Donnie's plan as gaming the system or just putting all eggs into 1 basket. You have thrown out a 2011 plan which is an exact mirror of Donnie's 2010 plan (being as competitive and having an out year with a bunch of expirings).

I'll go back to my original question: What would you have done differently if you were Donnie back in 2009 coming off a 20 win season?

Marbury, Jamal, Zbo, Nate, Lee, Curry, Jerome James, Q, Chandler, Rose, Collins, JJ?

The first thing he did was sign the best possible coach out there: MDA. This is a muti-purpose pick obviously: Vet coach, ties to Olympic team players, etc.

Second, sign a cap friendly PG: 2 years of Duhon. Helps the team cause he can run an offense and doesn't hurt anything long term.

Third, draft best possible long term draft prospect. Gallo; up for debate on how this will turn out. 2009-2010 will be a big showing.

Fourth, get rid of crap contracts and players who are detrimental to team or just plain crap: Marbury, Zbo, Jamal, JJ, Rose, Collins.

Firth, create an environment where your young guys are getting minutes: Nate, Lee, Chandler, Gallo got all the minutes they could handle. Now this point is one which may have been a by-product of something else (#4) or just a default happenstance.

What are you gonna do differently: Nate, Jefferies for Kenny Thomas; yes. Sign Lee and Nate to long term contracts before the 2009 season? Well, the GM just got into town and I wouldn't sign employees to long term contracts before I have seen them for a year under my own watch, so I give this a pass.

How do you upgrade the original roster? Your only assets are completely flawed players in Zbo and Jamal. Harrington and TT/Mobely would have been a pretty good exchange if Mobley were healthy (balanced the team). Let's be realistic, Zbo was just traded for Q to a team that also made the most one-sided trade over the last decade in Pau Gasol, so you can't really say that Zbo would have gotten you more. And Jamal just got traded for an injured player who was a fan fav and a draft pick who couldn't get minutes behind an oft-injured Bibby.

JohnWallace. What is YOUR plan in 2009?
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BRIGGS
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9/9/2009  12:34 PM
Posted by 30andOverClub:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

From the point that we passed the Winter 2009 trade deadline the 2010 plan was done. I've been saying that and so has Briggs ever since.

For whatever reason Donnie couldn't put a package together to get rid of Jeffries and its been over from that point.

We've been putting up the numbers to support that ever since, but it took Stern's recent memo for it to sink in with Donnie. I wish his staff could do a little better than a couple of bloggers.

The two Max player plan has been done since the deadline. My opinion has been that without room for two players you're not going to get one of them, they'll just stay where they are.

Donnie should accept that, move forward and use that to his advantage. There are plenty of teams that are desperate to compete for the 2010 FA's that are closer to competing than we are. We can take on 2010 salary that expires in 2011.

In 2011, all, not some of our bad contracts would be gone and we could actually do this thing right and get Durant and Melo or some combination like that. Think Durant wouldn't pick NYC over OKC? He doesn't have any personal ties to the city like LeBron does.

First off, Durant is a restricted free agent in 2011. We can't sign him outright and even if he tells OKC that he wants out, you're going to have to trade a boatload of players and picks to get him because you'll be competing with 28 other teams.

Secondly, what happens if Carmelo signs an extension prior to 2011? Who do you go after then? Right now, none of LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Amare, Dirk, or Joe Johnson have signed extensions with their teams. Which means most of them, if not ALL of them, are going to be free agents next year. To not wait one more year to make a play at one (or more if we're lucky) of them would be down right irresponsible.

Id rather have Ramon Sessions for 4mm than Joe Johsnon for 15. Dirk Nowitski isnt coming here and will be 38 by the time his next contract ends. I love Amare Stoudemire but he has too many injury problems to give him 60mm. That leaves Bosh[who laughed at the suggestion of coming to NY] Wade[who is not coming to NY] and Lebron[who is the only guy I think we have a 10-20% chance with.
Signing Sessions to what wouldve been less than 4mm for 2010 is a no brainer--they were extremely conservative to a fault--they thought about it way too much.

Honestly I thought it was absurd we were trying to give J Kidd and Hill money--for the first time in ages I thought that Sessions wouldve been one heckuva catch where the Knicks werent breaking the bank and gettinga good fairly sound player who can play and has nice upside as well--we have no hedge--it's all or nothing--that is the plan.
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9/9/2009  12:49 PM
^^ its not all or nothing because you can do exactly the same thing next year. Or trade for players and take back money. Or trade for a big salary attached to a very high draft pick. There are 1000 possibilities that having this kind of flexibility opens up to you, but you just choose to ignore everyone of them.

I would take a 20% chance at Lebron over watching Ramon Session 7 days a week and twice on Friday. But if you want to fill a roster up with guys that will lead us to 45 wins every year enjoy. I would rather suck and take a shot at something great.

Its not Lebron or bust.. not even close
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JohnWallace44
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9/9/2009  12:52 PM
Martin, I feel like I have described it in detail, but here goes again...

From the top...
- Signing of MikeD - fine, would have tried to do the same
- 2008 Draft - At the time, I was for Randolph or Bayless, as was most everyone on here
- Craw/Randolph trades - I would have let the roster roll until the trade deadline - if we were in a position to make the playoffs then I would have traded expirings for 2010 or 2011 expirings to gain assets. If we were out of it, then I would have seen what you can get for any of them at that point. In addition, if we were out of it I would have put Nate and Lee into deals to help clear the books.
- 2009 draft - we would have been drafting later, so I probably would have gone for someone like Johnson, and if the Lakers pick were available I would go with Beaubois.
- Going into 2009 - I like the Darko trade. I would use our market advantage to take on 2010 salary and look to 2011 and beyond for salary flexibility. "Flexibility," meaning room to sign one major player each year, or resign your own guys.

A John Wallace GM'ed 2009 roster could have looked like

PG: Bayless (Randolph is just to easy to beat Donnie up on)
SG: The Mayor (assume Craw was traded like GS did to ATL)
SF: James Johnson
PF: ZBo,
C: Darko, Jeffries

Bench: Beaubois, Mardy Collins, Balkman

Assuming that you couldn't pull off anything decent, you'd have a roster like that.

First off, that roster is more balanced. You have a clear PG, SG, SF, PF, C. Who is what on our team?

I don't think it would take much to have bettered what Donnie has done. Maybe its just me. As a fan, I would rather be competitive. Donnie cut the team apart twice last season. Its really hard to put a value on at least having a shot year to year. Giving up multiple years for something way down the road is pretty tough to swallow. The biggest Knicks story this year will be that nobody is showing up to the games. Good luck selling the team when there's no fans in the building Dolans.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
BRIGGS
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9/9/2009  1:00 PM


I would take a 20% chance at Lebron over watching Ramon Session 7 days a week and twice on Friday. But if you want to fill a roster up with guys that will lead us to 45 wins every year enjoy. I would rather suck and take a shot at something great.



We have cap space to sign Ramon Sessions for 4 yrs 16mm AND sign Lebron to a maximum contract--add it up please so this incessant redundancy will stop. Not trying to break cahones but when you post something atleast bring the right math to the table
RIP Crushalot😞
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