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OT: Welcome home, Mr. Gates
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firefly
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7/22/2009  7:29 AM
Posted by misterearl:

firefly - the piece is a commentary, intended to provide context.

Take off the defensive blockers and read the piece again from the top.

Bullcrap. It provides no context and is a commentary on a fantasy incident that the author created in his mind. It certainly doesnt help anyone who hasnt actually read the full story. Read this by itself and you think Rodney King, not some fool academic desperate to prove a point.

I reject the accusation that I have defensive blockers on. I acknowledge the existence of racism and encourage and demand action to eradicate it. Find a better story and Ill stand with you at the next protest.
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
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firefly
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7/22/2009  7:31 AM
If you read carefully you will understand it is NOT a defense of Gates or his actions.

Of course its not, because what this idiot reporter is talking about never happened to Gates.
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
firefly
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7/22/2009  7:33 AM
Posted by misterearl:

firefly - on the contrary the Ted Landsmark story has every bit of relevance to the fear on both sides.

The point is that Things do not happen in a vacuum. History provides context and perspective if you study it.

[Edited by - misterearl on 07-22-2009 07:29 AM]

I agree that the Ted Landsmark story is enormously relevant to racism and the way the two sides view each other. I further agree that the history of racism provides perspective and it is necessary to study it to fully understand the forces in play. I disagree with the view that correlating it to this incident makes any sense at all.

[Edited by - firefly on 07-22-2009 07:34 AM]
Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream things that never were and ask why not?
firefly
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7/22/2009  7:39 AM
and insight for the anger of Gates particularly for people like you.

Im no journalist, and I can think of hundreds of better ways to provide insight into Gates' anger then the way this reporter did. Why invent a situation on which to place your "context and insight", rather then use the actual event? Is it because the actual event is too mild for your likng? Thats not journalism, thats fiction.


And Im going to ignore the "people like you" remark, as I am assuming it was just poor choice of language on your part. Im much younger then you and I have been the target of more racial abuse then most black or white people I know.


[Edited by - firefly on 07-22-2009 07:57 AM]
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misterearl
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7/22/2009  7:40 AM
Context

firefly - do you think that the documented troubles that Zach Randolph had off the court in Portland, had any relevance to how he would be judged in New York?

Would his history have any impact on how he would be perceived in the press... or by Knicks fans?

Just curious
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firefly
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7/22/2009  7:50 AM
Posted by misterearl:

Context

firefly - do you think that the documented troubles that Zach Randolph had off the court in Portland, had any relevance to how he would be judged in New York?

Would his history have any impact on how he would be perceived in the press... or by Knicks fans?

Just curious

Not sure how you mean. Zach was seen as a troublemaker because he, well, made trouble.

He came to NY and didnt make a peep. No trouble whatsoever, and people commented on that. Good for him, he changed peoples minds around. He then got traded, regressed and caused more trouble and people said "Boy its lucky we traded him, we thought he had changed but he failed himself again". Thats the way it goes. He came to NY and people gave him a second chance. He then made the same mistakes again and the more times he does, the less likely people will be to trust him to change again.

Not sure what your point is, but if you want to use the way people percieve Zach Randolph as a racial commentary, I would ask you to read about Joey Barton http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joey_Barton. People will give you a chance regardless of color until you prove them wrong one too many times.

And if your point is that historical context skews peoples view of current events, I would say that each situation should be judged on its own merit, like the cases of Zach Randolph and Joey Barton, unless discrimination is seen to be institutional.

If the cops werent racist to Gates, then they werent racist regardless of how racist other cops were to other victims.
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misterearl
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7/22/2009  7:57 AM
My "point" is demonstrated in your words exactly and succinctly.

"He then made the same mistakes again and the more times he does, the less likely people will be to trust him to change again."

Thank You

The Henry Louis Gates story is one of mistrust on both sides.

Moving forward, I also think a potential signing of Ramon Sessions gives the Knicks a talented and exciting young core
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firefly
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7/22/2009  8:04 AM
Posted by misterearl:

My "point" is demonstrated in your words exactly and succinctly.

"He then made the same mistakes again and the more times he does, the less likely people will be to trust him to change again."

Thank You

The Henry Louis Gates story is one of mistrust on both sides.

Moving forward, I also think a potential signing of Ramon Sessions gives the Knicks a talented and exciting young core

Im more then happy to move forward and youre right Sessions would be great for us. Ramon to Jordan for the 'oop has a nice ring to it.

I am unsure whether there was indeed mistrust on both sides in this story, as the cops themselves didnt do anything racially motivated, while Gates was the one guilty of profiling.

Regardless, Im sure we can both agree there are plenty of cases of racism in the world and we should act to end it as quickly as possible. Sadly for Mr Gates, this wasnt one of those cases. Maybe the person to blame most is the one who called the cops in the first place.
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fishmike
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7/22/2009  8:55 AM
this isnt racism this is common sense. Lets see... you walk up to cops shouting racial accusations, its a quiet neighborhood, its night time, and the only reason the cops are there in the first place is because one of your neighbors called them. Yes.. pretty sure thats a good way to get yourself a free ride in the back of a cruiser.

I would have done the same thing. If I'm on duty and show up at the dudes house in response to a B&E call and the dude starts barking at me I'm walking away and ignoring him. If the dude follows me out to my cruiser barking more of his crap then he can bark it in the backseat while I book him for disturbing the peace.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
misterearl
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7/22/2009  9:03 AM
fishmike - note that you identify with the police first.

You refer to Gates as "you" and the police as "I".

Now, just for kicks and giggles, try the reverse. Can you describe the Henry Louis Gates position as "I"?
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izybx
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7/22/2009  9:18 AM
Woman calls the police to report a break in.

Police respond and see a man breaking in.

Police determine that no crime has been committed and leave.

Man follows police and berates them (for doing their job apparently) and is arrested.

I can see the racism all over this one!
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Marv
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7/22/2009  9:25 AM
Posted by izybx:

Woman calls the police to report a break in.

Police respond and see a man breaking in.

Police determine that no crime has been committed and leave.

Man follows police and berates them (for doing their job apparently) and is arrested.

I can see the racism all over this one!

what's supposed to happen when someone asks an officer for his name and badge number?
firefly
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7/22/2009  9:29 AM
Posted by Marv:
Posted by izybx:

Woman calls the police to report a break in.

Police respond and see a man breaking in.

Police determine that no crime has been committed and leave.

Man follows police and berates them (for doing their job apparently) and is arrested.

I can see the racism all over this one!

what's supposed to happen when someone asks an officer for his name and badge number?

OK, maybe he should have answered. So the cop is an ass. But wheres the racism? Despite my best efforts, assness is not a crime.
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fishmike
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7/22/2009  9:29 AM
Posted by misterearl:

fishmike - note that you identify with the police first.

You refer to Gates as "you" and the police as "I".

Now, just for kicks and giggles, try the reverse. Can you describe the Henry Louis Gates position as "I"?
absolutely not. I would never be so stupid as to mouth off to cops. So the answer to your question is I cant describe it as I. What I identify with is walking away from someone (Gates) who is trying to get a rise out of me.

You missed my point. I put myself in the cops shoes because I'm not racist. I was lucky to grow up in a house where there wasnt a racial or ethnic peep. So the point is I'm NOT racist and if I am that cop I do exactly the same thing. First I try to walk away and ignore the guy because I am just there doing my job. Then when he wont drop it and storms after me out onto the lawn screaming and blaming me all things wrong in racist America I'm throwing his ass into the back of my cruiser.

Cause he's black and I'm white?

No. Because at some point enough is enough and a line has been crossed.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
firefly
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7/22/2009  9:30 AM
Posted by misterearl:

fishmike - note that you identify with the police first.

You refer to Gates as "you" and the police as "I".

Now, just for kicks and giggles, try the reverse. Can you describe the Henry Louis Gates position as "I"?

You need to learn how not to be so overbearingly condescending sometimes Earl. And +1 to Fishy's reply.
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fishmike
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7/22/2009  9:38 AM
Posted by Marv:
Posted by izybx:

Woman calls the police to report a break in.

Police respond and see a man breaking in.

Police determine that no crime has been committed and leave.

Man follows police and berates them (for doing their job apparently) and is arrested.

I can see the racism all over this one!

what's supposed to happen when someone asks an officer for his name and badge number?
thats not where the wrong occured. If the cop was a douche then Gates waits till he leaves, calls the station, finds out who was there and files a complaint. Instead he lost his crap, let his temper take over and followed the guy onto the lawn screaming his head off to the point where the cop(s) felt it was appropriate to cuff him.

Most know cops can be real pricks. If Gates was on the recieving end of that I feel for him. That sucks and I have been there. Its lousy.

BUT

If you go after a cop in uniform on duty shouting and screaming he's going to bag you. Anyone thats ever watched 20 minutes of COPS on channel 5 knows this. Geeze

[Edited by - fishmike on 22-07-2009 09:38 AM]
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
bitty41
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7/22/2009  9:40 AM
Posted by fishmike:

this isnt racism this is common sense. Lets see... you walk up to cops shouting racial accusations, its a quiet neighborhood, its night time, and the only reason the cops are there in the first place is because one of your neighbors called them. Yes.. pretty sure thats a good way to get yourself a free ride in the back of a cruiser.

I would have done the same thing. If I'm on duty and show up at the dudes house in response to a B&E call and the dude starts barking at me I'm walking away and ignoring him. If the dude follows me out to my cruiser barking more of his crap then he can bark it in the backseat while I book him for disturbing the peace.


You don't even have the story correct. There was a call made to the police that two black men were breaking into someone's home. The police showed up at Gate's residence questioned him, Gates showed his two IDs, and from there Gates demanded badge numbers and names. Where are you getting the idea that he followed them? At most they should have given him the badge numbers/names eat a little crow and leave.

I wasn't aware that we lived in a police state.

izybx,

How could the police have left when they clearly arrested him in his home there's only a picture showing him being led out of his home in handcuffs.

misterearl
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7/22/2009  9:46 AM
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firefly - overbearingly condescending?

I don't "need" to learn anything dude. Notice that the word racist was never used to fish.mike but his defense jumped to that level.

All I asked is whether he could put himself in Henry Louis Gates' shoes. Plain and simple. He could not.

What is "overbearigly condescending" about that?

Absolutely Nothing.

You provide a clear demonstration why discussions of race are difficult. Stubborn defenders of police behavior get stuck and defenders of HLG get stuck. Stuck with arbitrary labels and shaky defense of improper behavior.

"Overbearlingly condescending" or just citing a truth, like you, from my perspective?

Your reality MUST be more valid - correct?

I repeat. All I asked is whether he could put himself in Henry Louis Gates' shoes.

[Edited by - misterearl on 07-22-2009 09:51 AM]
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firefly
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7/22/2009  10:17 AM
Posted by bitty41:
Posted by fishmike:

this isnt racism this is common sense. Lets see... you walk up to cops shouting racial accusations, its a quiet neighborhood, its night time, and the only reason the cops are there in the first place is because one of your neighbors called them. Yes.. pretty sure thats a good way to get yourself a free ride in the back of a cruiser.

I would have done the same thing. If I'm on duty and show up at the dudes house in response to a B&E call and the dude starts barking at me I'm walking away and ignoring him. If the dude follows me out to my cruiser barking more of his crap then he can bark it in the backseat while I book him for disturbing the peace.


You don't even have the story correct. There was a call made to the police that two black men were breaking into someone's home. The police showed up at Gate's residence questioned him, Gates showed his two IDs, and from there Gates demanded badge numbers and names. Where are you getting the idea that he followed them? At most they should have given him the badge numbers/names eat a little crow and leave.

I wasn't aware that we lived in a police state.

izybx,

How could the police have left when they clearly arrested him in his home there's only a picture showing him being led out of his home in handcuffs.

No, the cop walked out of Gates' house and Gates followed him out. On the porch, he kept making a ruckus so they arrested him. Thats how it went down according to Gates' own testimony.
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fishmike
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7/22/2009  10:19 AM
According to the initial police report Gates accused police officers at the scene of being racist and said repeatedly, "This is what happens to black men in America."

Police came to Gates's home to investigate a possible break-in about 12:40 p.m. on Thursday. The department's report said Gates was arrested "after exhibiting loud and tumultuous behavior" at his home. Officers said they tried to calm Gates, who responded, "You don't know who you're messing with."

Gates's home is owned by Harvard so he picked up the phone to call the university's real estate maintenance office. Before he could finish the conversation, a police officer was standing on his porch and asking him to come out of the house.

"Instinctively, I knew I was not to step outside," Gates said, describing the officer's tone as threatening. Gates said the policeman, who was in his 30s and several inches taller than him, followed him into his kitchen where Gates retrieved his identification

"I was thinking, this is ridiculous, but I'm going to show him my ID, and this guy is going to get out of my house," Gates said. "This guy had this whole narrative in his head. Black guy breaking and entering."

After handing the officer both his Harvard and Massachusetts state identification, which included his address, Gates said he began to ask the officer this question, repeatedly. "I said 'Who are you? I want your name and badge number.' I got angry."

According to Gates's account, the officer refused to give it. The police report says, however, that the officer identified himself.

"I weigh 150 lbs and I'm 5' 7''. I'm going to give flack to a big white guy with a gun. I might wolf later, but I won't wolf then."

But Gates did keep asking for the officer's name and said he began to feel humiliated when his question was ignored. He then said: "This is what happens to black men in America."

The officer left and Gates followed him outside. There were about a half-dozen police officers standing in his front yard.

Bitty... do tell. Because the story seems pretty mixed up doesnt it? Gates says the cop ignored him. The cop says he gave Gates his name and badge #.

doesnt it seem to be Gate who is projecting? Doesnt Gates admit he's *assuming* its racially motivated?
"I was thinking, this is ridiculous, but I'm going to show him my ID, and this guy is going to get out of my house," Gates said. "This guy had this whole narrative in his head. Black guy breaking and entering."
Looks like thats exactly what did happen no? The cop left his house. At that point it would have been over, and if Gates felt as humiliated as he said he could have filed a complaint, called the press, called whoever he wanted and dealt with it in an appropriate fashion.

Instead
The officer left and Gates followed him outside.

And Gates shouted
"This is what happens to black men in America."
"You don't know who you're messing with."

A police state? You have to be kidding me. Did they beat him? Mace him? Tazer him?

No... he wouldnt calm down and stop screaming threats so they cuffed him and put him in a cell to cool down.

Gates was right about one thing.. Its not that thats what happens to BLACK men in America. That happens to EVERY man in America.

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