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I am really curious to know what Nate should do differently to change the perception of him around here
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Martice
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7/15/2009  2:06 PM
Or lack thereof.
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Cosmic
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7/15/2009  2:13 PM
Posted by Martice:

enthusiasm, never giving up, and every other 'good' quality can be WORTHLESS if it is misguided.

And misguided potential star players reflects leadership.

Eh, some guys just don't want to hear it and just want to do their thing and go home. Not everyone is able to be guided. It's just not as simple as that.

It's akin to saying all we needed was a defensive center next to Zach and we'd be fine. All Curry needs is the right trainer and he'll lose weight. All Nate needs is the right mentor and he'll get his head screwed on right.

These things are never a given. In Nate's case I see a person who refuses to listen to anything anyone else has to say and is so defiant about the chance that he himself is wrong about any given thing. He's not coachable.

Great talent, incredible heart and motor, probably a very loyal friend and helpful person - but - a great teammate in a sport that is very reliant on teamwork he is not.

He's also not a kid anymore. He is a grown man. What you see is what you get. And with that... 20 minutes off the bench for a good team? Great thing to have. Playing 30-40 minutes and carrying a big role? Not a good thing.
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GKFv2
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7/15/2009  2:14 PM
Terribly bias post. The bad has nothing to do with Isiah regime and him not being Sessions.

Here is the real bad:

He's 5'9 and not a PG
He plays completely out of control and not a part of the offense 90% of the time
His stupid taunts after every basket are annoying; Needs to mature
Cares more about the stats he puts up than whats going on on the court
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Rookie
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7/15/2009  2:23 PM


fishmike
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7/15/2009  2:23 PM
Posted by GKFv2:

Terribly bias post. The bad has nothing to do with Isiah regime and him not being Sessions.

Here is the real bad:

He's 5'9 and not a PG
He plays completely out of control and not a part of the offense 90% of the time
His stupid taunts after every basket are annoying; Needs to mature
Cares more about the stats he puts up than whats going on on the court
equally biased response as you have made your feelings about him clear. If he was such a terrible backup at PG last year why were the Knicks a better team with him on the floor?

He's 25 and is what he is? When Chancey Billups was 25 he had been traded 3 times and played for 4 NBA teams. The best past is Dumars was laughed at for overpaying and giving him the full MLE. 25 huh? So its always about the player and never about the situation?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Cosmic
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7/15/2009  2:30 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by GKFv2:

Terribly bias post. The bad has nothing to do with Isiah regime and him not being Sessions.

Here is the real bad:

He's 5'9 and not a PG
He plays completely out of control and not a part of the offense 90% of the time
His stupid taunts after every basket are annoying; Needs to mature
Cares more about the stats he puts up than whats going on on the court
equally biased response as you have made your feelings about him clear. If he was such a terrible backup at PG last year why were the Knicks a better team with him on the floor?

He's 25 and is what he is? When Chancey Billups was 25 he had been traded 3 times and played for 4 NBA teams. The best past is Dumars was laughed at for overpaying and giving him the full MLE. 25 huh? So its always about the player and never about the situation?

Two summers ago when he owned the SL he seemed to say and do all the right things. Where did that go? What has he done to further that moment of maturity? Nothing. In fact he's less mature now than he was that week.

You can't always look at a person's age and muse they are going to grow up. 25 is not young when talking of attitude. Nate is pretty set in his ways.

Will he eventually calm down? I think he will but not all that much. One of the reasons he is where he is is a result of his ferocity. A passive Nate Robinson never makes it to the NBA. It's a catch 22 with him there.

Again, he is destined to be a very good bench player for a very good team. He does not have the proper attitude - and is unlikely to ever have the proper attitude - to be someone who plays big minutes game in and game out.

Nate Robinson plays 30+ minutes nightly for you and is one of your top 3 players (which, he is right now for us) you're not a very good team.

Just because he's ours doesn't mean everything will be alright and we need to applaud his every good move and ignore his every bad one.

When you have a bad team you focus on the negatives of every single player and let's face it: Nate's attitude and Nate's overly selfish play are HUGE negatives that if not changed will forever outweigh any positives he brings - one of which he has already lost - he used to be a great 3pt shooter - now he's terrible and chucking more and more with every passing day from deep.

3yr/10M

That is what I would offer him. 10M? Yes...for his attitude kills his points per game. 3yr? Yes. For who is to say he will ever mature? You don't want to lock up a question mark do you?



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djsunyc
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7/15/2009  2:32 PM
knicks situation the past 5 years has been anything but conducive for personal growth and stability.

even last season, nobody knew if they would remain as walsh was hacking up the roster left and right.
crzymdups
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7/15/2009  2:33 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by GKFv2:

Terribly bias post. The bad has nothing to do with Isiah regime and him not being Sessions.

Here is the real bad:

He's 5'9 and not a PG
He plays completely out of control and not a part of the offense 90% of the time
His stupid taunts after every basket are annoying; Needs to mature
Cares more about the stats he puts up than whats going on on the court
equally biased response as you have made your feelings about him clear. If he was such a terrible backup at PG last year why were the Knicks a better team with him on the floor?

He's 25 and is what he is? When Chancey Billups was 25 he had been traded 3 times and played for 4 NBA teams. The best past is Dumars was laughed at for overpaying and giving him the full MLE. 25 huh? So its always about the player and never about the situation?

i think the real problem with nate and lee is that they are highly skilled, great motors, great intensity and bball IQ... but they are terribly undersized for their positions. Nate is at least 6 inches too short to be a starter. DLee is a little short to be a starting PF. they just don't have the prototypical size for their position so they're never going to be able to start unless you have players next to them who compensate for their weaknesses.

i love the players, but you can't overlook that major flaw: they are too small to be starters - it kills us on defense. unless we get some guys that compensate for them - like actually build a team of complimentary players - it's not a good idea to sign them to contracts that eat up our cap space.

i'm hoping that we can sign each guy to the QO and tell them we'll take care of them next summer - i know they'll have a cap hold in the FA period, but i think it'd be about $2M for each guy and thus workable. i kind of think this is walsh's plan right now.
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TMS
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7/15/2009  2:35 PM
i would sign Nate longterm only at below market value, otherwise i would look to trade him... he's easily worth a full MLE contract but in our current situation keeping that cap space freed up is probably more beneficial to our longterm success IMHO.
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Cosmic
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7/15/2009  2:39 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

i'm hoping that we can sign each guy to the QO and tell them we'll take care of them next summer - i know they'll have a cap hold in the FA period, but i think it'd be about $2M for each guy and thus workable. i kind of think this is walsh's plan right now.

I hope I'm wrong but I thought I saw somewhere that a player who accepts the QO has a cap hold of 300% if a 4 year player and 200% if a 5th year player on the QO.

That's, well, tough to handle.

What is Nate's? 2.9? Lee's 2.7?

You're talking 5.6M total QO *2 = 11.2M on the cap for 2010-2011 if they're 200% (I think that's what they are) and ouch 16.8M on the cap if they are 300% (don't think they are).

We're on the books for what was it 26-27M already... so take the math from there and you have 37-38M committed which leaves us with if we're lucky with the cap number just enough to add one max FA.

It's close...
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JayNYC
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7/15/2009  2:40 PM
I'm sorry folks... I disagree!

A good majority of you seem to think that Nate is lacking guidance, and that he would benefit from playing with proper leadership. Fine, This may be true... But what if it isn't???? Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling for Nate's dismissal from the team either, I am merely pointing out the changes that I believe will help improve his perception around here.. but more importantly his effectiveness from the point guard position.

Nate Robinson is 5'9.. He is a POINT GUARD by body type, and should be by definition. He's listed as a point guard but plays shooting guard in our system, severely undersized/often overmatched. If he was 6'6 than he'd be an allstar.. That in itself is an issue.(There is no disputing that he is competitive) However, I think his current contribution to this team (scoring) can be replaced! Would it be with the same flair???.. thats questionable.. I don't know!

I've read this argument on these boards before: "we do not need anymore scorers"..
We need shooters, and true playmakers on the floor. Moreover, we need a closer in games!

I get the sense that we as Knick fans, are scared to lose Nate because at times he can be the lone bright spot at a New York Knick basketball game. and we'd hate to see him do well elsewhere. Also, the fact being he's a small guy on the court that plays big AT TIMES... Its endearing and makes him marketable. That shouldn't be the case.

Slice it anyway you want to... Leadership should come from the point guard position. The PG has to be the floor general. Point Guard is an extension of the Coach! Nate Robinson is a point guard, If he truly is NYK's best player, then he has to deliver by creating for others. Thus far, yes he has made improvements from year to year.. but those improvements are from a scoring perspective. He is still terribly inconsistant and erratic, he doesn't set people up.. and fails to lead. If he learns how to play what should be his natural position then he will have a far greater impact.

Has anyone else noticed that Nate Robinson hasn't exactly been the talk of interest amongst teams in the rumor mill. Why? because his size and inability to run a team make him less of an attraction to teams with a winning culture.





[Edited by - JayNYC on 07-15-2009 2:57 PM]
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McK1
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7/15/2009  3:01 PM
Posted by Cosmic:
Posted by crzymdups:

i'm hoping that we can sign each guy to the QO and tell them we'll take care of them next summer - i know they'll have a cap hold in the FA period, but i think it'd be about $2M for each guy and thus workable. i kind of think this is walsh's plan right now.

I hope I'm wrong but I thought I saw somewhere that a player who accepts the QO has a cap hold of 300% if a 4 year player and 200% if a 5th year player on the QO.

That's, well, tough to handle.

What is Nate's? 2.9? Lee's 2.7?

You're talking 5.6M total QO *2 = 11.2M on the cap for 2010-2011 if they're 200% (I think that's what they are) and ouch 16.8M on the cap if they are 300% (don't think they are).

We're on the books for what was it 26-27M already... so take the math from there and you have 37-38M committed which leaves us with if we're lucky with the cap number just enough to add one max FA.

It's close...

they are a 300% cap hold towards the 010 cap if they accept the QO.
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LivingLegend
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7/15/2009  3:04 PM
It's pretty simple really...3 steps.....

- Shut his mouth
- Listen to his coach
- Play defense every night
Cosmic
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7/15/2009  3:20 PM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Cosmic:
Posted by crzymdups:

i'm hoping that we can sign each guy to the QO and tell them we'll take care of them next summer - i know they'll have a cap hold in the FA period, but i think it'd be about $2M for each guy and thus workable. i kind of think this is walsh's plan right now.

I hope I'm wrong but I thought I saw somewhere that a player who accepts the QO has a cap hold of 300% if a 4 year player and 200% if a 5th year player on the QO.

That's, well, tough to handle.

What is Nate's? 2.9? Lee's 2.7?

You're talking 5.6M total QO *2 = 11.2M on the cap for 2010-2011 if they're 200% (I think that's what they are) and ouch 16.8M on the cap if they are 300% (don't think they are).

We're on the books for what was it 26-27M already... so take the math from there and you have 37-38M committed which leaves us with if we're lucky with the cap number just enough to add one max FA.

It's close...

they are a 300% cap hold towards the 010 cap if they accept the QO.

That would be a disaster...we'd have from 7 to 10M to offer a FA in 2010 if that's the case. That would put us around what 43M with a cap of 50-53M!?

What 10M free agent would put this present roster over the top? I guess if we want to be a perennial 1st round exit 7th-8th seed team it's all good!

We would then have to let them play out the year and renounce their rights losing both for nothing. I can't see us doing that nor can I see these two being allowed to screw up any chance to net a top FA next summer.

Something has to give in all of this and it won't be Walsh...
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mattshaw78
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7/15/2009  3:30 PM
I am not hating.....as he is kicking butt in my NBA 2k9 game hehe
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Bippity10
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7/15/2009  3:41 PM
Posted by mattshaw78:

I am not hating.....as he is kicking butt in my NBA 2k9 game hehe

I jack it up everytime he touches it.
I just hope that people will like me
Allanfan20
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7/15/2009  3:44 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by mattshaw78:

I am not hating.....as he is kicking butt in my NBA 2k9 game hehe

I jack it up everytime he touches it.

You jack it up whenever you touch it in a real game too, even on point guard duties. Hey I understand. Better being a 30% shooter than a 0% shooter.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
GodSaveTheKnicks
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7/15/2009  4:15 PM
Did I miss some interview with MDA where he said Nate was uncoachable and thought he was a Kobe level superstar?

I find it amusing that there are many posts presuming to know how Nate acts with coaches, freezes out his teammates, etc.

I think the numbers show he's gotten better every year. Am I wrong?

The #s will simply show if he's gotten more efficient as a scorer, shooter etc.

I don't know how anyone can confidently conclude something on his attitude. That would be an educated guess at best.

A member of the coaching staff saying that Nate breaks off plays all the time. That would be a fact being used to support the argument that Nate is selfish and not an asset. I haven't heard anything about that.

I think what seperates guys who can stay in the league and be useful from those who don't is the hunger to get better and work on improving your game throughout the season and the off season. I don't know if I can hate on someone who enjoys their wealth after working non stop for the first X years of their life to get into the league.

Nate seems to have that hunger.

If Eddie House is a useful player and he's getting paid 2.8 million, Nate is certainly worth more than that.

House has been in the league for a long time and he is what he is.

Nate already has more skills than House (better handle, much more athletic ability, much better rebounder) and there's a teeny tiny possibility that he hasn't hit his ceiling yet.

This will never happen but I would love to have an off the record (or on the record) with the coaching staff to see if they think that Nate can be a viable backup PG/combo guard or he is truly an iredeemable me-first team cancer.

Let's try to elevate the level of discourse in this byeetch. Please
SupremeCommander
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7/15/2009  4:17 PM
Posted by Rookie:




shake and bake

I will give that to Nate... I enjoyed that moment the most last year
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Paladin55
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7/15/2009  8:35 PM
To change perception of him on UK he has to change reality on the court.

Easier said than done, unfortunately.

I think that the Knicks could live with his defensive liabilities, (which would not be terrible if he only played PG) if he played within their system and kept his composure.

I'm still rooting for him to see the light, even though I know that after 4 years it might be impossible for him to change his game and control himself.

He has the kind of heart you love, but a head that makes you shake (your) head at times. When you think about Nate you think about his spectacular individual moments as a player and his amazing athletic skill- you never think of his BB IQ, composure, consistency, and his evolution as a team player. He's had a few games where he gave people a glimpse of how good he could be- but he needs to do more than that for the Knicks to pay him the $$ he thinks he deserves.

Maybe he needs to be on a winning team with strong veteran leadership that will keep him in check- something he has never had on the Knicks. I think that he really gets on MDA's nerves, and unless he is willing to take a lot less $$$ (and playing time) from the Knicks than he wants, he will play, at most, one more season in NY.

[Edited by - Paladin55 on 07-16-2009 11:12 AM]
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I am really curious to know what Nate should do differently to change the perception of him around here
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