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Getting rid of guys was the easy part
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McK1
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7/12/2009  4:01 PM
Posted by TMS:
You can re-sign Nate and Lee and add another mid-tier player or 2 whose star is on the rise/prime to break out and still have room to sign high caliber FA in 010.

care to explain to me how that's possible? i've broken down the cap situation so many times at this point i'm tired of arguing w/people who still don't know.

It starts with the premise that any of the top 10 FA's are not leaving 10-20 mil in guaranteed money on the table so if they came it would have to be a S&T so they can get the 6th year. S&T circumvents the sal cap so depending on how you structure the wage scale on an extension and I imagine Walsh would do it so its the min cap hit possible for all players signed this off-season, NY still would still likely have 8-10 mil to pay a high caliber FA going into the 010 summer.

Use the cap-space first then go after a max FA in a sign and trade, even though personally outside of Wade Lebron anbd Dirk, there is noone IMO worthy of blowing the capspace talent and 18 mil in cap relief Curry and JJ will provide for.







the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
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Bonn1997
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7/12/2009  4:14 PM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by TMS:
You can re-sign Nate and Lee and add another mid-tier player or 2 whose star is on the rise/prime to break out and still have room to sign high caliber FA in 010.

care to explain to me how that's possible? i've broken down the cap situation so many times at this point i'm tired of arguing w/people who still don't know.

It starts with the premise that any of the top 10 FA's are not leaving 10-20 mil in guaranteed money on the table so if they came it would have to be a S&T so they can get the 6th year. S&T circumvents the sal cap so depending on how you structure the wage scale on an extension and I imagine Walsh would do it so its the min cap hit possible for all players signed this off-season, NY still would still likely have 8-10 mil to pay a high caliber FA going into the 010 summer.

Use the cap-space first then go after a max FA in a sign and trade, even though personally outside of Wade Lebron anbd Dirk, there is noone IMO worthy of blowing the capspace talent and 18 mil in cap relief Curry and JJ will provide for.








We're both just speculating now but I think you've gotta at least have the threat of signing a player to a max contract if you want their team to help you out with a sign and trade. If Lebron says "I want to be signed and traded to the Knicks" and all we have is the MLE, CLE will just laugh at him and tell him "re-sign with us (Cleveland) or play for the MLE in NY. We're not helping you out here." It's implausible that a player is going to play for about 12 mil less per season. Cleveland has all the leverage and can laugh at his request. If we have cap space, though, they can't laughingly say "go play for 1.5 mil less a season in NY." That's at least a scenario they have to take seriously and it gives Lebron (or Wade or Amare, Dirk, or Bosh) much more leverage.
McK1
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7/12/2009  4:26 PM
That 20-30 mil with the 6th year is the biggest bargaining chip out there.

For any team out there not looking to sign and trade all I see happening is a repeat of the Kobe tour from 04 with player X traveling city to city having these billionare owners treat him and his family like royalty for most of the summer. Free 5 star vacation FTW!

[Edited by - McK1 on 07-12-2009 4:27 PM]
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
djsunyc
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7/12/2009  4:56 PM
this is a debate about the philosophy of building a team. those arguing that walsh did something special are really doing nothing more than being contrarian to mck1's original point. there have been many players traded throughout nba history that have had checkered pasts.

the issue is whether walsh should've bought players instead of dumped guys. there are 2 sides to that argument with valid points going each way. but to waste 10 posts about moving zach being something special is really a waste. especially since he was just traded again for shorter deals by mike dunleavy.
BasketballJones
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7/12/2009  5:18 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

this is a debate about the philosophy of building a team. those arguing that walsh did something special are really doing nothing more than being contrarian to mck1's original point. there have been many players traded throughout nba history that have had checkered pasts.

the issue is whether walsh should've bought players instead of dumped guys. there are 2 sides to that argument with valid points going each way. but to waste 10 posts about moving zach being something special is really a waste. especially since he was just traded again for shorter deals by mike dunleavy.

I disagree.
https:// It's not so hard.
djsunyc
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7/12/2009  5:19 PM
what did agree ever do to you that you now have to diss it?

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07-12-2009 5:19 PM]
Bonn1997
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7/12/2009  5:23 PM
Posted by McK1:

That 20-30 mil with the 6th year is the biggest bargaining chip out there.

For any team out there not looking to sign and trade all I see happening is a repeat of the Kobe tour from 04 with player X traveling city to city having these billionare owners treat him and his family like royalty for most of the summer. Free 5 star vacation FTW!

[Edited by - McK1 on 07-12-2009 4:27 PM]
That's misleading because you can put a player option after year 3 and then extend the contract. Nevertheless, the player and the Knicks still have much less leverage if the only contract they can offer is the MLE instead of a 5 year max contract.
McK1
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7/12/2009  5:36 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by McK1:

That 20-30 mil with the 6th year is the biggest bargaining chip out there.

For any team out there not looking to sign and trade all I see happening is a repeat of the Kobe tour from 04 with player X traveling city to city having these billionare owners treat him and his family like royalty for most of the summer. Free 5 star vacation FTW!

[Edited by - McK1 on 07-12-2009 4:27 PM]
That's misleading because you can put a player option after year 3 and then extend the contract. Nevertheless, the player and the Knicks still have much less leverage if the only contract they can offer is the MLE instead of a 5 year max contract.

you are still weighing guaranteed tens of millions vs non guaranteed even if you include the player opt as a bargaining chip.

the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Bonn1997
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7/12/2009  5:38 PM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by McK1:

That 20-30 mil with the 6th year is the biggest bargaining chip out there.

For any team out there not looking to sign and trade all I see happening is a repeat of the Kobe tour from 04 with player X traveling city to city having these billionare owners treat him and his family like royalty for most of the summer. Free 5 star vacation FTW!

[Edited by - McK1 on 07-12-2009 4:27 PM]
That's misleading because you can put a player option after year 3 and then extend the contract. Nevertheless, the player and the Knicks still have much less leverage if the only contract they can offer is the MLE instead of a 5 year max contract.

you are still weighing guaranteed tens of millions vs non guaranteed even if you include the player opt as a bargaining chip.
Well then you must admit that there's a HUGE difference between Lebron being able to say, "If you don't S & T me to NY, I'm going to sign there for the MLE" vs. "If you don't S & T me to NY, I'm going to sign there for 5 years, $90 mil"
TMS
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7/12/2009  5:39 PM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by TMS:
You can re-sign Nate and Lee and add another mid-tier player or 2 whose star is on the rise/prime to break out and still have room to sign high caliber FA in 010.

care to explain to me how that's possible? i've broken down the cap situation so many times at this point i'm tired of arguing w/people who still don't know.

It starts with the premise that any of the top 10 FA's are not leaving 10-20 mil in guaranteed money on the table so if they came it would have to be a S&T so they can get the 6th year. S&T circumvents the sal cap so depending on how you structure the wage scale on an extension and I imagine Walsh would do it so its the min cap hit possible for all players signed this off-season, NY still would still likely have 8-10 mil to pay a high caliber FA going into the 010 summer.

Use the cap-space first then go after a max FA in a sign and trade, even though personally outside of Wade Lebron anbd Dirk, there is noone IMO worthy of blowing the capspace talent and 18 mil in cap relief Curry and JJ will provide for.








u'r kidding urself if guys like Bosh & Amare wouldn't make a more positive impact on the Knicks' franchise than having Lee or Nate here for the long haul.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
McK1
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7/12/2009  5:42 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

this is a debate about the philosophy of building a team. those arguing that walsh did something special are really doing nothing more than being contrarian to mck1's original point. there have been many players traded throughout nba history that have had checkered pasts.

the issue is whether walsh should've bought players instead of dumped guys. there are 2 sides to that argument with valid points going each way. but to waste 10 posts about moving zach being something special is really a waste. especially since he was just traded again for shorter deals by mike dunleavy.

thats my fault. I should have obliged him "the old man blows" post he was fishing for so the thread could've gotten back on the topic of building a team.
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
McK1
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7/12/2009  5:59 PM
Posted by TMS:



u'r kidding urself if guys like Bosh & Amare wouldn't make a more positive impact on the Knicks' franchise than having Lee or Nate here for the long haul.

what do you believe the asking price for Stat or Bosh (especially Bosh - same div, Colangelo doing the dealing) in a S&T would be?

the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
TMS
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7/12/2009  6:05 PM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by TMS:



u'r kidding urself if guys like Bosh & Amare wouldn't make a more positive impact on the Knicks' franchise than having Lee or Nate here for the long haul.

what do you believe the asking price for Stat or Bosh (especially Bosh - same div, Colangelo doing the dealing) in a S&T would be?

who says we have to S&T for those guys? they are UFA's in 2010... that's the whole damn point of freeing up cap space that year, to pursue guys like that in the free agent market... i'm getting the feeling u're saying that we'd be better off holding onto Lee & Nate rather than using them to try & dump Curry & Jefferies' contracts, thereby freeing up cap space to sign 2 max FA's in 2010... if that's the case, i couldn't disagree w/u more & i've made that same point many times before all through last year when this whole debate was going on about how some of you thought this whole 2010 plan was a stupid idea.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
McK1
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7/12/2009  6:09 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by McK1:
Posted by TMS:



u'r kidding urself if guys like Bosh & Amare wouldn't make a more positive impact on the Knicks' franchise than having Lee or Nate here for the long haul.

what do you believe the asking price for Stat or Bosh (especially Bosh - same div, Colangelo doing the dealing) in a S&T would be?

who says we have to S&T for those guys? they are UFA's in 2010... that's the whole damn point of freeing up cap space that year, to pursue guys like that in the free agent market... i'm getting the feeling u're saying that we'd be better off holding onto Lee & Nate rather than using them to try & dump Curry & Jefferies' contracts, thereby freeing up cap space to sign 2 max FA's in 2010... if that's the case, i couldn't disagree w/u more & i've made that same point many times before all through last year when this whole debate was going on about how some of you thought this whole 2010 plan was a stupid idea.

I'm saying what person in their right mind is going to leave 20 mil plus guaranteed on the table to come here and play with Chandler Gallo Hill and Tony Douglas?
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
TMS
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7/12/2009  9:23 PM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by McK1:
Posted by TMS:



u'r kidding urself if guys like Bosh & Amare wouldn't make a more positive impact on the Knicks' franchise than having Lee or Nate here for the long haul.

what do you believe the asking price for Stat or Bosh (especially Bosh - same div, Colangelo doing the dealing) in a S&T would be?

who says we have to S&T for those guys? they are UFA's in 2010... that's the whole damn point of freeing up cap space that year, to pursue guys like that in the free agent market... i'm getting the feeling u're saying that we'd be better off holding onto Lee & Nate rather than using them to try & dump Curry & Jefferies' contracts, thereby freeing up cap space to sign 2 max FA's in 2010... if that's the case, i couldn't disagree w/u more & i've made that same point many times before all through last year when this whole debate was going on about how some of you thought this whole 2010 plan was a stupid idea.

I'm saying what person in their right mind is going to leave 20 mil plus guaranteed on the table to come here and play with Chandler Gallo Hill and Tony Douglas?

the same guy who's also coming here to play w/someone like Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Amare or Dirk maybe?
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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7/13/2009  1:08 AM
In regards to the Zach posts wasn't the title of the thread, "Getting rid of the guys was the easy part?" If there is money available, the franchise is not dysfunctional, the coach and gm are respected, and the team plays in NY free agents will be interested. If an executive takes over a franchise that has a sexual harrassment suit hanging over its head, one dimensional players with huge, untradeable longterm contracts some of whom have alot more than questionable character or a rep as dysfunctional chemistry killer , a president who has been charged with sexual harassament, is on tape saying racist and sexist statements, has called out the fans, thrown his signature players under the bus, and is the focus of every sports journalists ridicule for the way he has run the franchise, and is able to correct that in a calendar year I think that is far from the easy thing. Zach, Craw, Q, Steph, Balkman, James, are all gone. Articles are being written about how patient the guy in charge is. I did not like the drafting of Gallo, the hiring of D' and the signing of Roberson but since that initial hiccup I have been very pleased with Walsh. I think he is doing the right thing long term for the franchise and the only hard thing right now is being patient. The cap is going down so signing Lee, Nate and a free agent right now puts the Knicks in an awful spot cap wise next year because their only option would be sign and trade. I don't think you can say there is no talent on the roster and then say you can trade someone in a sign and trade. I think that the teams who have the marquee players will only do a sign and trade if they are getting nothing back and that is only a reality if a team has the cap flexibility to offer a player the max that they can.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
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