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OT: Good NYT Article on NCAA's Profiting off Student Athletes
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Bippity10
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7/6/2009  5:42 PM
Posted by sebstar:

Damn Martin, you must be a hustler by trade. I can see you now. Somebody gives you 50 bucks, for a five dollar meal..and you give them two dollars in change. And then you rattle off why that is fair compensation and a fair trade. Totally imbalanced in your favor...Free education went out once the NCAA started signing billion dollar deals.

Sure, kids can go to foreign countries to play, but how reasonable of an alternative is that? As an 18 y/o, just pack up for Europe to play? Sounds a lot easier on paper, and it's probably why Jennings struggled so much. Right now, the NCAA holds all the cards and they know it because the alternative routes are virtually non-existent. Thats why they continue to exploit. Hopefully more athletes will take the Jennings route and continue to publically embarrass the NCAA.

Okay, if this is the case, if I begin to pay you then you must maintain good grades or you owe me my money back. You must stay out of trouble or you owe me my money back. If you leave after one year how do we determine your value to the university? What did you bring in? What do you think is a fair salary?

Lastly, why does an education not cut it anymore? Is there anything more valuable? Athlete A doesn't go to classes and gets paid for playing. When his career is over and he doesn't make it to the NBA what happens to him? Athlete B goes to classes, studies and does well. The school just set him up for life. No? Why diminish the value of an education so much. Some people risk their lives for one. I was a college athlete and earned a scholarship. My college education helped me to develop enough skills to now earn a good living for the remainder of my life. I got that for free. There are people that would literally kill for that opportunity.
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Bippity10
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7/6/2009  5:42 PM
Posted by sebstar:

Now I need to come up with solutions to satisfy you? We cant even agree that that there is a problem to begin with. Thus far I was just trying to establish that there was an issue...ok, then.

A uniform stipend would be a good start.

Let's start here, what would be a fair salary for a player?
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sebstar
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7/6/2009  5:47 PM
My numbers are going to be less than concrete...

Give players 50-60% of TV revenue...divide that up based on schools who receive the most airtime and create a sliding scale based off that.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
sebstar
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7/6/2009  5:48 PM
That also applies to apparel, ticket sales, ext. Get an unbiased arbitrator to come in and crunch the numbers.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
bitty41
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7/6/2009  5:56 PM
Sebstar,

Seriously you have no idea how complicated this would become if colleges paid athletes.

Are you aware of Title 9 Patsy T. Mink Equal Opportunity in Education Act which almost every female athlete knows about. Why am I bringing this up well essentially this acts states "No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance." So in other words if you pay one athletic team then you will have to pay them all. So how would you divvy up the money? Should the track team receive less then the basketball team? Because I'm you telling that unless Universities want to spend the next century fighting lawsuits then they cannot simply give the Football team or the basketball team money and say have a nice day to everyone else. Not to mention that the smaller schools who don't have big TV contracts where's their payday? Should athletes at Davidson receive less then athletes at UNC? Remember these are still amateurs athletes and these Universities cannot act in the same way a General Manager of a NBA team can. There is major legal implications in all of this.

Sure, kids can go to foreign countries to play, but how reasonable of an alternative is that? As an 18 y/o, just pack up for Europe to play? Sounds a lot easier on paper, and it's probably why Jennings struggled so much. Right now, the NCAA holds all the cards and they know it because the alternative routes are virtually non-existent. Thats why they continue to exploit. Hopefully more athletes will take the Jennings route and continue to publically embarrass the NCAA.

Jennings struggled because he's an immature 18 year old who probably couldn't deal with being out of his comfort zone. NCAA is only exploiting an athlete if he or she allows themselves to get exploited. Meaning that if an athlete doesn't goto college and doesn't take advantage of the educational opportunity of getting (100 grand plus education) for free then yes they just got themselves exploited. A few of my ex-teammates finished school made money oversees for awhile then came back home got a more stable job. So not only did they not owe one dime in student loans but they also made themselves a big nest egg by playing overseas. We all used college basketball as means to end. Some the end as an NBA or Pro Basketball career for others it's a Bachelor's degree but make no mistake that Bachelor's Degree is invaluable after a sport's career comes to an end.

These guys who are the so-called big market players they make that money back 100 fold when they get drafted. I remember when Chris Webber was playing at Michigan every boy in my school wanted that basketball jersey. Maybe it is messed up that Michigan made money off of him while in college but guess what he's made millions of dollars since his days at Michigan.


I think a solution to this is that the schools should be mandated to spend the money on creating more scholarships for all students and if any profits are made directly off an athlete (i.e. sports gear, jerseys) part of that money should be funneled into a trust fund of sorts in which the player collect upon after he or she ends their college career. This paying players in college all sounds wonderful on paper but would be an absolute mess in real-life. Look there's options if a player wants to make money but college (at least in principle) is meant for Scholastic Advancement not athletics.

[Edited by - bitty41 on 07-06-2009 5:58 PM]
sebstar
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7/6/2009  5:56 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by sebstar:

Damn Martin, you must be a hustler by trade. I can see you now. Somebody gives you 50 bucks, for a five dollar meal..and you give them two dollars in change. And then you rattle off why that is fair compensation and a fair trade. Totally imbalanced in your favor...Free education went out once the NCAA started signing billion dollar deals.

Sure, kids can go to foreign countries to play, but how reasonable of an alternative is that? As an 18 y/o, just pack up for Europe to play? Sounds a lot easier on paper, and it's probably why Jennings struggled so much. Right now, the NCAA holds all the cards and they know it because the alternative routes are virtually non-existent. Thats why they continue to exploit. Hopefully more athletes will take the Jennings route and continue to publically embarrass the NCAA.

Okay, if this is the case, if I begin to pay you then you must maintain good grades or you owe me my money back. You must stay out of trouble or you owe me my money back. If you leave after one year how do we determine your value to the university? What did you bring in? What do you think is a fair salary?

Lastly, why does an education not cut it anymore? Is there anything more valuable? Athlete A doesn't go to classes and gets paid for playing. When his career is over and he doesn't make it to the NBA what happens to him? Athlete B goes to classes, studies and does well. The school just set him up for life. No? Why diminish the value of an education so much. Some people risk their lives for one. I was a college athlete and earned a scholarship. My college education helped me to develop enough skills to now earn a good living for the remainder of my life. I got that for free. There are people that would literally kill for that opportunity.

Education is completely overvalued, because it A) doesnt guarantee you anything other than providing one with a piece of paper (look how many college kids are struggling in this economy) and B) any economist will tell you that college is completely overpriced. A generation ago, one could go to school for pennies on the dollar; the cost of college has shot up for no discernible reason. People throw around 100k like a typical state college is even worth that.

How bout we reverse it. The executives and college administrators can receive some sort of barter exchange. Free Masters education or Doctoral studies...or something similar and the kids can receive the cash. See if they'll go for that deal.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
sebstar
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7/6/2009  6:00 PM
Bitty...I think you are with the spirit of my contention with collegiate sports so there is no need to split hairs.

But yeah, Title 9 isnt reasonable in my book. Call me sexist, but the Duke women's lacrosse team is not on equal footing with the Duke men's basketball program. But I know common sense takes a back seat in these situations, so if you can come up with a better alternative that doesnt find the bulk of the profits landing in the laps of fat cat executives, I'm all ears. Make them put the money back into the communities. I really dont care, but the NCAA system right now is full of shyt and it needs to be altered.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
sebstar
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7/6/2009  6:03 PM
And how many 18 y/o are polished enough to withstand leaving their home country to go ply their trade half way across the world? I dont know if you can label Jennings as immature.

Some players get caked off under the table, but usually they are hung out to dry once its discovered they received a few dollars for their services. If anything it just highlights how much money is being made off their backs.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
Bippity10
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7/6/2009  6:03 PM
Posted by sebstar:

My numbers are going to be less than concrete...

Give players 50-60% of TV revenue...divide that up based on schools who receive the most airtime and create a sliding scale based off that.

small school A goes up against behemoth school B. The game is televised in both local markets. The reason we book behemoth school B is because when we play them we get more money than we ever would make against smaller schools that are not televised. We split the television revenue with behemoth school B and then use that money to pay for our coach, athletic facilities, scholastic buildings etc. Now you are going to take 60% of that money and divide it with the players on the teams. So now we are getting less than half of what we received in the past. Half of the money that funded our rinky dink gym, our leaky roof, our non grass covered football field and dark dingy classrooms is now gone. Athletic scholarships for lesser athletes at our schools are now gone. But hey all the kids at behemoth school B with their $100,000 scholarships and massive paychecks from their final four run last year are doing great.

Universities use this money for good use. Did Calhoun get rich at Uconn? of course. But if you look at what that university looked like in 1987 and compare it to what it is now, it's amazing what good that money did for all of the students at that school. It's amazing how many kids come out of small school A with an education and a chance as well. Or the thrill of playing basketball at the Division I level. Out of over 3000 basketball players at that level only 30 will get guaranteed money at the NBA level. The rest walk away with an education that could last them a lifetime. Many come from poor neighborhoods who would never have a chance and now they have a chance to learn skills that can get them out of these neighborhoods or turn around and teach others.. I'm still not sure I understand why that's not valued.
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bitty41
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7/6/2009  6:03 PM
Education is completely overvalued, because it A) doesnt guarantee you anything other than providing one with a piece of paper (look how many college kids are struggling in this economy) and B) any economist will tell you that college is completely overpriced. A generation ago, one could go to school for pennies on the dollar; the cost of college has shot up for no discernible reason. People throw around 100k like a typical state college is even worth that.

No shyt and no shyt. You will not get any argument from me because in this crappy economy. I agree colleges are out of control (personally I think this issue should be on the same level of importance as the health care debate).
bitty41
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7/6/2009  6:05 PM
Posted by sebstar:

Bitty...I think you are with the spirit of my contention with collegiate sports so there is no need to split hairs.

But yeah, Title 9 isnt reasonable in my book. Call me sexist, but the Duke women's lacrosse team is not on equal footing with the Duke men's basketball program. But I know common sense takes a back seat in these situations, so if you can come up with a better alternative that doesnt find the bulk of the profits landing in the laps of fat cat executives, I'm all ears. Make them put the money back into the communities. I really dont care, but the NCAA system right now is full of shyt and it needs to be altered.

I hope you never have a daughter but you know what's funny if we were talking about race I doubt you would have the same stance. Hypocrites really are unbelievable.

[Edited by - bitty41 on 07-06-2009 6:06 PM]
sebstar
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7/6/2009  6:12 PM
Posted by bitty41:
Posted by sebstar:

Bitty...I think you are with the spirit of my contention with collegiate sports so there is no need to split hairs.

But yeah, Title 9 isnt reasonable in my book. Call me sexist, but the Duke women's lacrosse team is not on equal footing with the Duke men's basketball program. But I know common sense takes a back seat in these situations, so if you can come up with a better alternative that doesnt find the bulk of the profits landing in the laps of fat cat executives, I'm all ears. Make them put the money back into the communities. I really dont care, but the NCAA system right now is full of shyt and it needs to be altered.

I hope you never have a daughter but you know what's funny if we were talking about race I doubt you would have the same stance. Hypocrites really are unbelievable.

[Edited by - bitty41 on 07-06-2009 6:06 PM]

How am I a hypocrite? Are women worth less than men? Absolutely not. Do women sports bring in even a fraction of the revenue as their male counterparts...

Its just reality. I dont know why you're even going there with me.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
Bippity10
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7/6/2009  6:13 PM
As Bitty said, let's also keep in mind that major college sports revenue pays for most of the sports teams at these universities and yet schools are still cutting teams. Take away a majority of this revenue and more and more of the smaller sports are taken away. Which means more and more scholarships. Not to mention all the ethical dangers that come into play.
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Bippity10
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7/6/2009  6:17 PM
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by bitty41:
Posted by sebstar:

Bitty...I think you are with the spirit of my contention with collegiate sports so there is no need to split hairs.

But yeah, Title 9 isnt reasonable in my book. Call me sexist, but the Duke women's lacrosse team is not on equal footing with the Duke men's basketball program. But I know common sense takes a back seat in these situations, so if you can come up with a better alternative that doesnt find the bulk of the profits landing in the laps of fat cat executives, I'm all ears. Make them put the money back into the communities. I really dont care, but the NCAA system right now is full of shyt and it needs to be altered.

I hope you never have a daughter but you know what's funny if we were talking about race I doubt you would have the same stance. Hypocrites really are unbelievable.

[Edited by - bitty41 on 07-06-2009 6:06 PM]

How am I a hypocrite? Are women worth less than men? Absolutely not. Do women sports bring in even a fraction of the revenue as their male counterparts...

Its just reality. I dont know why you're even going there with me.

So do you cut the women's sports and take away potential scholarships for women who wouldn't have been able to play in school otherwise because we want to pay the basketball team? How many inner city kids don't go to school because someone had to cut a few programs to pay the football team?
I just hope that people will like me
sebstar
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7/6/2009  6:18 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

As Bitty said, let's also keep in mind that major college sports revenue pays for most of the sports teams at these universities and yet schools are still cutting teams. Take away a majority of this revenue and more and more of the smaller sports are taken away. Which means more and more scholarships. Not to mention all the ethical dangers that come into play.

Im not worried about the smaller schools...I'm worried about the executives, administrators, and all the fat cats that take the billions of dollars in revenue off the top and leave the crumbs for the kids. There would be more for everybody if there was more accountability
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
sebstar
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7/6/2009  6:21 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by bitty41:
Posted by sebstar:

Bitty...I think you are with the spirit of my contention with collegiate sports so there is no need to split hairs.

But yeah, Title 9 isnt reasonable in my book. Call me sexist, but the Duke women's lacrosse team is not on equal footing with the Duke men's basketball program. But I know common sense takes a back seat in these situations, so if you can come up with a better alternative that doesnt find the bulk of the profits landing in the laps of fat cat executives, I'm all ears. Make them put the money back into the communities. I really dont care, but the NCAA system right now is full of shyt and it needs to be altered.

I hope you never have a daughter but you know what's funny if we were talking about race I doubt you would have the same stance. Hypocrites really are unbelievable.

[Edited by - bitty41 on 07-06-2009 6:06 PM]

How am I a hypocrite? Are women worth less than men? Absolutely not. Do women sports bring in even a fraction of the revenue as their male counterparts...

Its just reality. I dont know why you're even going there with me.

So do you cut the women's sports and take away potential scholarships for women who wouldn't have been able to play in school otherwise because we want to pay the basketball team? How many inner city kids don't go to school because someone had to cut a few programs to pay the football team?

Who said anything about cutting? Its just unreasonable that schools have to spend dollar for dollar on their men/women sporting programs when the two programs are not generating anywhere near the same revenue. If anything it hurts collegiate sports as a whole, because schools cant delegate more resources to their bread winning programs. They're hamstrung.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
Bippity10
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7/6/2009  6:30 PM
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by Bippity10:

As Bitty said, let's also keep in mind that major college sports revenue pays for most of the sports teams at these universities and yet schools are still cutting teams. Take away a majority of this revenue and more and more of the smaller sports are taken away. Which means more and more scholarships. Not to mention all the ethical dangers that come into play.

Im not worried about the smaller schools...I'm worried about the executives, administrators, and all the fat cats that take the billions of dollars in revenue off the top and leave the crumbs for the kids. There would be more for everybody if there was more accountability

Again, it all trickles down. Small schools don't book big schools because they enjoy getting slaughtered 100-34. They book these schools because of the money they make for their universities. Book 2 or 3 and that pays for your coach and gymnasium. You start taking that money away and what happens. 30 basketball players get a little money that they are going to blow on beer and small schools have to make huge sacrifices in their programs.

As we discussed it also trickles down to the other sports at the big universities. You take revenue away to pay the players and you are now taking money away from smaller sports that make no money like track and field, lacrosse etc, and most of the women's sports. Which means less athletic scholarships. Which means more kids have to pay. Which means more college for kids that can afford to pay. Which means less opportunity for some to go to school. But hey the 12 basketball kids have enough money to buy a car.

Another thing that is not talked about is that as an athlete you receive a lot more.

1.) You get a scholarship(doesn't matter what we think it's worth, the actual cost is all that matters)
2.) You learn skills that can earn you an actual living
3.) I received thousands of dollars worth of shoes and apparel. So much that I gave a lot of it to my friends.
4.) The team received a per diem on road trips. Not going to say how much it was, but it was enough for us to eat and then use the remainder to go the bars or Foxwoods when we returned from games.
5.) We received free access to training facilities, trainers, physical therapists, massage therapists etc. If you pay the athletes, shouldn't you make them pay for that?

It's not an easy answer. Maybe one day someone can convince me they should receive a small stipend. But let's not act like it's a criminal act that the players are not getting paid. They are already getting a lot.
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sebstar
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7/6/2009  6:35 PM
See, thats the thing I keep saying. You're not taking away from smaller schools and giving to the athletes. You're taking away from the executives, administrators, and coaches and giving to the athletes and making things more equitable.

I'm sorry, even though you love him, you cant hand Calhoun, Pitino, Calipari, 5-8 million dollar per and claim poor mouth. Its too one sided.

NCAA needs a revolution.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
sebstar
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7/6/2009  6:37 PM
Thats where the hustle comes in, pitting athletes against athletes (similar to how working class whites are pitted against working class minorities) while the white collars are robbing the NCAA coffers blind.

Athletes dont receive a dime, yet the mere thought of them receiving it is the problem. Funny how that works.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
Bippity10
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7/6/2009  6:37 PM
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by bitty41:
Posted by sebstar:

Bitty...I think you are with the spirit of my contention with collegiate sports so there is no need to split hairs.

But yeah, Title 9 isnt reasonable in my book. Call me sexist, but the Duke women's lacrosse team is not on equal footing with the Duke men's basketball program. But I know common sense takes a back seat in these situations, so if you can come up with a better alternative that doesnt find the bulk of the profits landing in the laps of fat cat executives, I'm all ears. Make them put the money back into the communities. I really dont care, but the NCAA system right now is full of shyt and it needs to be altered.

I hope you never have a daughter but you know what's funny if we were talking about race I doubt you would have the same stance. Hypocrites really are unbelievable.

[Edited by - bitty41 on 07-06-2009 6:06 PM]

How am I a hypocrite? Are women worth less than men? Absolutely not. Do women sports bring in even a fraction of the revenue as their male counterparts...

Its just reality. I dont know why you're even going there with me.

So do you cut the women's sports and take away potential scholarships for women who wouldn't have been able to play in school otherwise because we want to pay the basketball team? How many inner city kids don't go to school because someone had to cut a few programs to pay the football team?

Who said anything about cutting? Its just unreasonable that schools have to spend dollar for dollar on their men/women sporting programs when the two programs are not generating anywhere near the same revenue. If anything it hurts collegiate sports as a whole, because schools cant delegate more resources to their bread winning programs. They're hamstrung.

I said something about cutting, because that's reality. Programs don't get close to dollar for dollar and nobody said that they should. At Uconn all the teams have nice facilities but the basketball and football teams benefit by far the most. But if you begin taking revenue away from these small programs, best case scenario is these programs lose scholarships and worst case scenario many are getting cut. Which means fewer scholarships and fewer opportunities for those that can't afford to pay for school. Instead smaller programs and sports teams will be taking on more of the financially fortunate amongst us. I think you are missing the point of the revenue that is taken in. It's to better the school for the entire student body.
I just hope that people will like me
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