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Walsh talks Lee (7M per over 6yr) and Nate (QO)
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Panos
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6/30/2009  7:21 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by McK1:

the best executives always get something for their assets.
Always? highly unlikely.
Here are some examples of well-run teams losing good players for nothing. Keep in mind none of these team's GMs inherited as tough a situation as Walsh.


2008-Atlanta lost Josh Childress Since when is Atlanta "well-run"?
2008-Boston-James Posey
2007-Orlando-Grant Hill Perenially injured.
2006-Atlanta-Al Harrington
2005-Dallas-Michael Finley Washed up and overpaid.
2004-Dallas-Steve Nash
2004-Detroit-Mehmet Okur
2004-Spurs-Hedo Turkoglu
2003-Spurs-Stephen Jackson
2003-LA Lakers-Robert Horry
2003-Utah Jazz-Karl Malone Was at the end of his career. What did he play 1 season?
2002-Utah-Donyell Marshall eh.
AUTOADVERT
McK1
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6/30/2009  7:29 PM
Atlanta still owns the free agent rights to Childress
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
TMS
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6/30/2009  7:42 PM
just to add to Panos' response...
Posted by Panos:

2008-Atlanta lost Josh Childress Since when is Atlanta "well-run"?
2008-Boston-James Posey
2007-Orlando-Grant Hill Perenially injured.
2006-Atlanta-Al Harrington
2005-Dallas-Michael Finley Washed up and overpaid.
2004-Dallas-Steve Nash Dallas had to worry about signing Dirk to a longterm deal
2004-Detroit-Mehmet Okur dude was a 10 & 6 player when he left DET, please
2004-Spurs-Hedo Turkoglu 9 & 5 when he left SA... nice try but FAIL
2003-Spurs-Stephen Jackson 12 & 4 when he left SA... i'm sensing a pattern here
2003-LA Lakers-Robert Horry 7 & 7 when he left LA... wow, u do try tho, i'll give u that much
2003-Utah Jazz-Karl Malone Was at the end of his career. What did he play 1 season?
2002-Utah-Donyell Marshall eh.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bonn1997
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6/30/2009  8:01 PM
Posted by TMS:

just to add to Panos' response...
Posted by Panos:

2008-Atlanta lost Josh Childress Since when is Atlanta "well-run"?
2008-Boston-James Posey
2007-Orlando-Grant Hill Perenially injured.
2006-Atlanta-Al Harrington
2005-Dallas-Michael Finley Washed up and overpaid.
2004-Dallas-Steve Nash Dallas had to worry about signing Dirk to a longterm deal
2004-Detroit-Mehmet Okur dude was a 10 & 6 player when he left DET, please
2004-Spurs-Hedo Turkoglu 9 & 5 when he left SA... nice try but FAIL
2003-Spurs-Stephen Jackson 12 & 4 when he left SA... i'm sensing a pattern here
2003-LA Lakers-Robert Horry 7 & 7 when he left LA... wow, u do try tho, i'll give u that much
2003-Utah Jazz-Karl Malone Was at the end of his career. What did he play 1 season?
2002-Utah-Donyell Marshall eh.

Nice try but you failed.

-"Grant Hill perennially injured" That's true except that he played all 82 games last season. I suppose you expected him to play at least 83.
-"Michael Finley washed up" He was so washed up that the Spurs gave him a major role for the next four seasons. Were the Mavs incompetent for losing him for nothing or were the Spurs incompetent for giving him a major role for the next four seasons. You can't logically say no to both.
-"Steve Nash: Dallas had to worry about signing Dirk" That's a legitimate excuse but worrying about the salary cap (Walsh's case) isn't? Losing the soon-to-be MVP for nothing is justifiable because you had another player to worry about? It's unreasonable to expect Cuban to focus on two things at a time? That's an awfully low standard that you're not applying to Walsh.
-Okur and Torkuglu's #s: You're using a second mistake by their GMs (failure to foresee how good they could be with more minutes) to justify their initial mistake (losing the player for nothing)
-Donyell Marshall: His numbers at the time were remarkably similar to David Lee's.

In other words, you cannot make your case without lying about the players involved or justifying the mistake of the GM by citing further mistakes of the same GM. Good Job TMS!

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 06-30-2009 8:04 PM]
McK1
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6/30/2009  8:09 PM
SA: Hedo to S Jax to Brent Barry to Finley. What do they all have in common? They filled the same role and they were/are all easily replaceable for what they meant to the Spurs.

maybe you think a guy like david lee who brings so many intangibles to the game along with the stats is as easily cycled thru as the Spurs have done with those wings but I beg to differ.




[Edited by - McK1 on 06-30-2009 8:11 PM]
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Panos
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6/30/2009  8:13 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:

just to add to Panos' response...
Posted by Panos:

2008-Atlanta lost Josh Childress Since when is Atlanta "well-run"?
2008-Boston-James Posey
2007-Orlando-Grant Hill Perenially injured.
2006-Atlanta-Al Harrington
2005-Dallas-Michael Finley Washed up and overpaid.
2004-Dallas-Steve Nash Dallas had to worry about signing Dirk to a longterm deal
2004-Detroit-Mehmet Okur dude was a 10 & 6 player when he left DET, please
2004-Spurs-Hedo Turkoglu 9 & 5 when he left SA... nice try but FAIL
2003-Spurs-Stephen Jackson 12 & 4 when he left SA... i'm sensing a pattern here
2003-LA Lakers-Robert Horry 7 & 7 when he left LA... wow, u do try tho, i'll give u that much
2003-Utah Jazz-Karl Malone Was at the end of his career. What did he play 1 season?
2002-Utah-Donyell Marshall eh.

Nice try but you failed.

-"Grant Hill perennially injured" That's true except that he played all 82 games last season. I suppose you expected him to play at least 83.
-"Michael Finley washed up" He was so washed up that the Spurs gave him a major role for the next four seasons. Were the Mavs incompetent for losing him for nothing or were the Spurs incompetent for giving him a major role for the next four seasons. You can't logically say no to both.
-"Steve Nash: Dallas had to worry about signing Dirk" That's a legitimate excuse but worrying about the salary cap (Walsh's case) isn't? Losing the soon-to-be MVP for nothing is justifiable because you had another player to worry about? It's unreasonable to expect Cuban to focus on two things at a time? That's an awfully low standard that you're not applying to Walsh.
-Okur and Torkuglu's #s: You're using a second mistake by their GMs (failure to foresee how good they could be with more minutes) to justify their initial mistake (losing the player for nothing)
-Donyell Marshall: His numbers at the time were remarkably similar to David Lee's.

In other words, you cannot make your case without lying about the players involved or justifying the mistake of the GM by citing further mistakes of the same GM. Good Job TMS!

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 06-30-2009 8:04 PM]

When Grant Hill left Orlando he was nothing more than a contract. No one could foretell that he would be a servicable player again. You could only go by the info at hand. It was not a bad decision.
Bonn1997
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6/30/2009  8:21 PM
Posted by Panos:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:

just to add to Panos' response...
Posted by Panos:

2008-Atlanta lost Josh Childress Since when is Atlanta "well-run"?
2008-Boston-James Posey
2007-Orlando-Grant Hill Perenially injured.
2006-Atlanta-Al Harrington
2005-Dallas-Michael Finley Washed up and overpaid.
2004-Dallas-Steve Nash Dallas had to worry about signing Dirk to a longterm deal
2004-Detroit-Mehmet Okur dude was a 10 & 6 player when he left DET, please
2004-Spurs-Hedo Turkoglu 9 & 5 when he left SA... nice try but FAIL
2003-Spurs-Stephen Jackson 12 & 4 when he left SA... i'm sensing a pattern here
2003-LA Lakers-Robert Horry 7 & 7 when he left LA... wow, u do try tho, i'll give u that much
2003-Utah Jazz-Karl Malone Was at the end of his career. What did he play 1 season?
2002-Utah-Donyell Marshall eh.

Nice try but you failed.

-"Grant Hill perennially injured" That's true except that he played all 82 games last season. I suppose you expected him to play at least 83.
-"Michael Finley washed up" He was so washed up that the Spurs gave him a major role for the next four seasons. Were the Mavs incompetent for losing him for nothing or were the Spurs incompetent for giving him a major role for the next four seasons. You can't logically say no to both.
-"Steve Nash: Dallas had to worry about signing Dirk" That's a legitimate excuse but worrying about the salary cap (Walsh's case) isn't? Losing the soon-to-be MVP for nothing is justifiable because you had another player to worry about? It's unreasonable to expect Cuban to focus on two things at a time? That's an awfully low standard that you're not applying to Walsh.
-Okur and Torkuglu's #s: You're using a second mistake by their GMs (failure to foresee how good they could be with more minutes) to justify their initial mistake (losing the player for nothing)
-Donyell Marshall: His numbers at the time were remarkably similar to David Lee's.

In other words, you cannot make your case without lying about the players involved or justifying the mistake of the GM by citing further mistakes of the same GM. Good Job TMS!

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 06-30-2009 8:04 PM]

When Grant Hill left Orlando he was nothing more than a contract. No one could foretell that he would be a servicable player again. You could only go by the info at hand. It was not a bad decision.
He had averaged 14 PPG on 52% shooting that very season. That doesn't even qualify as a "servicable player"?! We have people here drooling over Wilson Chandler for averaging 14 PPG on 43% shooting! And you ignored all but one example anyway, which doesn't bode well for your argument.
TMS
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6/30/2009  8:23 PM
Posted by McK1:

SA: Hedo to S Jax to Brent Barry to Finley. What do they all have in common? They filled the same role and they were/are all easily replaceable for what they meant to the Spurs.

maybe you think a guy like david lee who brings so many intangibles to the game along with the stats is as easily cycled thru as the Spurs have done with those wings but I beg to differ.




[Edited by - McK1 on 06-30-2009 8:11 PM]

only in this guy's world is a 16 & 12 player equatable to letting a 9 & 5 guy walk for nothing... if u can even understand the nonsense he posted in the previous post please translate some of it for me bro... i'm done wasting my time.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bonn1997
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6/30/2009  8:26 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by McK1:

SA: Hedo to S Jax to Brent Barry to Finley. What do they all have in common? They filled the same role and they were/are all easily replaceable for what they meant to the Spurs.

maybe you think a guy like david lee who brings so many intangibles to the game along with the stats is as easily cycled thru as the Spurs have done with those wings but I beg to differ.




[Edited by - McK1 on 06-30-2009 8:11 PM]

only in this guy's world is a 16 & 12 player equatable to letting a 9 & 5 guy walk for nothing... if u can even understand the nonsense he posted in the previous post please translate some of it for me bro... i'm done wasting my time.

You're obsessed with stats but I nevertheless accept your admission of defeat

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 06-30-2009 8:28 PM]
Panos
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6/30/2009  8:26 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Panos:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by TMS:

just to add to Panos' response...
Posted by Panos:

2008-Atlanta lost Josh Childress Since when is Atlanta "well-run"?
2008-Boston-James Posey
2007-Orlando-Grant Hill Perenially injured.
2006-Atlanta-Al Harrington
2005-Dallas-Michael Finley Washed up and overpaid.
2004-Dallas-Steve Nash Dallas had to worry about signing Dirk to a longterm deal
2004-Detroit-Mehmet Okur dude was a 10 & 6 player when he left DET, please
2004-Spurs-Hedo Turkoglu 9 & 5 when he left SA... nice try but FAIL
2003-Spurs-Stephen Jackson 12 & 4 when he left SA... i'm sensing a pattern here
2003-LA Lakers-Robert Horry 7 & 7 when he left LA... wow, u do try tho, i'll give u that much
2003-Utah Jazz-Karl Malone Was at the end of his career. What did he play 1 season?
2002-Utah-Donyell Marshall eh.

Nice try but you failed.

-"Grant Hill perennially injured" That's true except that he played all 82 games last season. I suppose you expected him to play at least 83.
-"Michael Finley washed up" He was so washed up that the Spurs gave him a major role for the next four seasons. Were the Mavs incompetent for losing him for nothing or were the Spurs incompetent for giving him a major role for the next four seasons. You can't logically say no to both.
-"Steve Nash: Dallas had to worry about signing Dirk" That's a legitimate excuse but worrying about the salary cap (Walsh's case) isn't? Losing the soon-to-be MVP for nothing is justifiable because you had another player to worry about? It's unreasonable to expect Cuban to focus on two things at a time? That's an awfully low standard that you're not applying to Walsh.
-Okur and Torkuglu's #s: You're using a second mistake by their GMs (failure to foresee how good they could be with more minutes) to justify their initial mistake (losing the player for nothing)
-Donyell Marshall: His numbers at the time were remarkably similar to David Lee's.

In other words, you cannot make your case without lying about the players involved or justifying the mistake of the GM by citing further mistakes of the same GM. Good Job TMS!

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 06-30-2009 8:04 PM]

When Grant Hill left Orlando he was nothing more than a contract. No one could foretell that he would be a servicable player again. You could only go by the info at hand. It was not a bad decision.
He had averaged 14 PPG on 52% shooting that very season. That doesn't even qualify as a "servicable player"?! We have people here drooling over Wilson Chandler for averaging 14 PPG on 43% shooting! And you ignored all but one example anyway, which doesn't bode well for your argument.

00-01 ORL 4
01-02 ORL 14
02-03 ORL 29
04-05 ORL 67
05-06 ORL 21
06-07 ORL 65

Here are his games played in each of the seasons he played in Orlando for big $$ if I'm not mistaken.
There was no reason not to think that the chronic problem with his ankle would not resurface again after signing another contract. I think in the NBA the way injured players continue to hit your cap, they did the prudent thing in letting him go. You have the benefit of hindsight.
Bonn1997
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6/30/2009  8:28 PM
Posted by McK1:

SA: Hedo to S Jax to Brent Barry to Finley. What do they all have in common? They filled the same role and they were/are all easily replaceable for what they meant to the Spurs.

maybe you think a guy like david lee who brings so many intangibles to the game along with the stats is as easily cycled thru as the Spurs have done with those wings but I beg to differ.




[Edited by - McK1 on 06-30-2009 8:11 PM]

So you can address only 4 out of the 12 examples. That's weak. Who easily replaced Steve Nash on the Mavs? Or is that too tough a question for you?
McK1
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6/30/2009  8:34 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by McK1:

SA: Hedo to S Jax to Brent Barry to Finley. What do they all have in common? They filled the same role and they were/are all easily replaceable for what they meant to the Spurs.

maybe you think a guy like david lee who brings so many intangibles to the game along with the stats is as easily cycled thru as the Spurs have done with those wings but I beg to differ.




[Edited by - McK1 on 06-30-2009 8:11 PM]

So you can address only 4 out of the 12 examples. That's weak. Who easily replaced Steve Nash on the Mavs? Or is that too tough a question for you?

Only top exec off of your list of people was RC Buford. no need to address anyone else.

But as for the Steve Nash thing, Mark Cuban made a mistake. Being a players owner doesn't make Cuban a top exec but his FO did acquire Terry that summer to replace Nash and also traded Jamison for the 5th pick and drafted Devin Harris as pg of the future.
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Bonn1997
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6/30/2009  8:41 PM
Only top exec off of your list of people was RC Buford. no need to address anyone else.
I need an English to English translation here. I don't follow what you're saying. Are you saying Buford is the only good GM out of all the ones listed or am I misunderstanding? How did those other teams make it to the finals then? Luck?

Where would you rank David Lee among PFs in our league? Top 2? 5? or more like 15? You make it sound like we won't ever be able to replace him and losing him would destroy the franchise. I just don't see it. He looks like a solid 6th man to me and nothing more.



King1
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6/30/2009  8:57 PM
If Lee is a solid 6th man and he was your best player last year you really think Lebron will come and play with 4 guys that arent NBA starters?
McK1
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6/30/2009  8:58 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Only top exec off of your list of people was RC Buford. no need to address anyone else.
I need an English to English translation here. I don't follow what you're saying. Are you saying Buford is the only good GM out of all the ones listed or am I misunderstanding? How did those other teams make it to the finals then? Luck?

Where would you rank David Lee among PFs in our league? Top 2? 5? or more like 15? You make it sound like we won't ever be able to replace him and losing him would destroy the franchise. I just don't see it. He looks like a solid 6th man to me and nothing more.

Originally posted by McK1:

the best executives always get something for their assets.

who cares how you rank David Lee amongst other pf's. It is irrelevant in this discussion.

"how did those other teams make it to the Finals?"

Great players, great caoching.

[Edited by - McK1 on 06-30-2009 9:00 PM]
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
Marv
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6/30/2009  9:24 PM
wow bonn's feeling his oats tonight

in the best of all worlds we pair lee and nate with/jj2 and fatboy and are all in for 2k10. with expirings and picks back.

in the worst of all worlds we sign and keep them both or trade them for ongoing contracts and lose out on major players in 2k10.

letting them both walk is somewhere in the middle. and acceptable to me. i don't think we'll really care if we end up with 2 top fa's and surround them with hill, gallo b free, "andrew" toney douglas, the mayor, and an assortment of other players who lead us to 60+ win seasons.

did boston rue losing al jefferson and jeff green when they took home the o'brien?
Bonn1997
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6/30/2009  9:29 PM
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Only top exec off of your list of people was RC Buford. no need to address anyone else.
I need an English to English translation here. I don't follow what you're saying. Are you saying Buford is the only good GM out of all the ones listed or am I misunderstanding? How did those other teams make it to the finals then? Luck?

Where would you rank David Lee among PFs in our league? Top 2? 5? or more like 15? You make it sound like we won't ever be able to replace him and losing him would destroy the franchise. I just don't see it. He looks like a solid 6th man to me and nothing more.

Originally posted by McK1:

the best executives always get something for their assets.

who cares how you rank David Lee amongst other pf's. It is irrelevant in this discussion.

"how did those other teams make it to the Finals?"

Great players, great caoching.

[Edited by - McK1 on 06-30-2009 9:00 PM]
Doesn't it take a great GM to get great players and great coaches?
RE: Ranking David Lee. You brought up the notion that it would be extremely difficult to replace Lee. Obviously, where he ranks among PFs is directly relevant to your question. If there's an abundance of superior or at least comparable players at his position (and I believe there are), then that indicates how replacable the player is.
Bonn1997
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6/30/2009  9:31 PM
Posted by King1:

If Lee is a solid 6th man and he was your best player last year you really think Lebron will come and play with 4 guys that arent NBA starters?
I aint focused on Lebron but to answer your question: If Lebron comes here in 2010, the motivating factors IMO will have nothing to do with the individuals who were on the 2008-9 roster.
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6/30/2009  9:57 PM
Posted by Marv:

did boston rue losing al jefferson and jeff green when they took home the o'brien?

Boston traded Al Jefferson in the KG deal & traded Green for Ray Allen & those trades were hugely responsible for them winning a championship that year... getting value for your best assets, there's a prime example... u don't let them walk for nothing, that's the worst case scenario... signing them & keeping them & missing out on FA's in 2010 isn't even in Donnie's plan right now, so we shouldn't even be considering those options.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
McK1
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6/30/2009  10:04 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by McK1:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Only top exec off of your list of people was RC Buford. no need to address anyone else.
I need an English to English translation here. I don't follow what you're saying. Are you saying Buford is the only good GM out of all the ones listed or am I misunderstanding? How did those other teams make it to the finals then? Luck?

Where would you rank David Lee among PFs in our league? Top 2? 5? or more like 15? You make it sound like we won't ever be able to replace him and losing him would destroy the franchise. I just don't see it. He looks like a solid 6th man to me and nothing more.

Originally posted by McK1:

the best executives always get something for their assets.

who cares how you rank David Lee amongst other pf's. It is irrelevant in this discussion.

"how did those other teams make it to the Finals?"

Great players, great caoching.

[Edited by - McK1 on 06-30-2009 9:00 PM]
Doesn't it take a great GM to get great players and great coaches?
RE: Ranking David Lee. You brought up the notion that it would be extremely difficult to replace Lee. Obviously, where he ranks among PFs is directly relevant to your question. If there's an abundance of superior or at least comparable players at his position (and I believe there are), then that indicates how replacable the player is.

Kupchack took over the team Jerry West built. LA ended up self destructing on his watch then the Gasol trade happened. Kupchack is good. He isn't great. He was smart enough to rehire a living legend in Phil to get LA back to the top.

Mark Cuban had a great coach in Don Nelson that helped him build Dallas. He still employs his son. A great exec would not have taken that Kidd trade.

Where he ranks amongst pfs is not relevant because the Knicks are not shopping at Pathmark with pfs lined up wall to wall on aisle 4.







[Edited by - McK1 on 06-30-2009 10:06 PM]
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
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