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OT: USA-Brazil!
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PresIke
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USA
6/28/2009  4:39 PM
Clint Dempsy announced 3rd most outstanding player in the tournament too.

Fabiano 2nd, Kaka 1st.

but the US team looks disappointed.

[Edited by - PresIke on 06-28-2009 4:40 PM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
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Cosmic
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6/28/2009  4:39 PM
Our lack of aggressive defense, always being out-numbered in our own box, was just atrocious but they did the same VS Spain and somehow got away with it. Terrible game plan defensively.

Offensively we also have poor control of the ball all we score on are breakaways and broken plays.

Amazing we were actually in the finals.

Brasil got robbed of one goal as it was.

BTW- if They call their own country Brasil, and the majority of the world recognizes them as Brasil, why are we morons and call them Brazil? Translations are one thing...substituting a Z for an S is retarded. I think Brasil knows how to spell their own countries' name. Are we so retarded we can't spell it correctly? LOL
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VDesai
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6/28/2009  4:41 PM
This was a tough loss but a great result for the US. Most prognosticators would've given the US no chance to lead Brazil in this game, much less lead 2-0. And certainly to beat Spain in any tourney is an accomplishment for any country's national team. US have not played with a lot of confidence on the international level and this is a step in the right direction. They have a long way of catching up the rest of the world, but they are consistently fielding more competetive squads than they ever have, and this was another step in the right direction.
PresIke
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6/28/2009  4:43 PM
why is Germany not called Deutschland or Nederland called the Netherlands or Holland?

it's just language, i think, which sometimes has to do with how it sounds in the other language. in english it's spelled that way.

but generally it would be why all countries aren't called their proper name in other languages.

i would also say this has to do with the history of colonization and imperialism by Europeans & other Western associated cultures (i.e. the U.S. & Australia), who basically decided to call and name countries, cities, people, etc. how they wanted versus the way indigenous or native peoples did.

[Edited by - PresIke on 06-28-2009 4:47 PM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
Cosmic
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6/28/2009  4:50 PM
Posted by PresIke:

why is Germany not called Deutschland or Nederland called the Netherlands or Holland?

it's just language, i think, which sometimes has to do with how it sounds in the other language. in english it's spelled that way.

but generally it would be why all countries aren't called their proper name in other languages.

i would also say this has to do with the history of colonization and imperialism by Europeans & other Western associated cultures (i.e. the U.S. & Australia), who basically decided to call and name countries, cities, people, etc. how they wanted versus the way indigenous or native peoples did.

[Edited by - PresIke on 06-28-2009 4:47 PM]

True, some translations are very different however one as simple as Brasil vs Brazil seems odd to me.

As to our US team, VDesai, there are no moral victories. We had an improbable 2-0 lead, we played horrendous defense which led to two quick scores one before the half and one right after, we played slow and lazy, the defensive game plan was a terribly relaxed situation I can't ever recall watching defense played in such a manner we gave them as many free opportunities as possible.

No moral victory here. Just a shameful defensive strategy.
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Silverfuel
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6/28/2009  4:53 PM
Posted by Cosmic:

As to our US team, VDesai, there are no moral victories. We had an improbable 2-0 lead, we played horrendous defense which led to two quick scores one before the half and one right after, we played slow and lazy, the defensive game plan was a terribly relaxed situation I can't ever recall watching defense played in such a manner we gave them as many free opportunities as possible.
I saw it totally different. I saw a great defensive effort against an unbelievably talented offensive team. I think the problem here is the offense. They couldn't hold the ball for more than 2 minutes. There was no developing an attack or passing to the right place. They would just cross and take shot! Does not work. But the defense was gritty and awesome IMO.
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PresIke
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6/28/2009  5:01 PM
i think the US was fatigued by the middle of the 2nd half, and brasil changed their strategy for their point of attack, which with their amazingly skilled players, they could do.

the first goal didn't come from a breakaway, that was a normal play, from what i saw.

and the 2nd goal, while it was off of a breakaway, was orchestrated on a level that us players are not traditionally associated with. the feed to donovan, and his strike was beautiful to watch.

the reality is, the u.s. is not as good as the best nations in the world. we're getting better, and we need to tap into other parts of the population and make the game a more sellable sport for athletes to look to as a potential job (studies show that many american soccer players give up after they reach 16 years old or so), and improve our coaching at lower levels (we have too many coaches who just don't "get" the game).

this is not either going to mean that we are now a world cup favorite, that is something i think people need to take a step back and realize. we could be in another tough group where we may not even make the 2nd round, but i think it would be a disappointment if we do not at least do that. however, we are a much better footballing/soccer nation than we ever have been before, and can compete at the highest level against top teams.

we need more skill/creative players with the ball, which is why we are not on the top tier, or doubted by other nations/observers. a disproportionate number of u.s. players come from middle class backgrounds, so we are not tapping into communities that could provide the u.s. with the kinds of players needed to be a top nation. america is more of a hand sport nation, and we don't have a player like a ronhaldino to show kids how cool the sport can be, that it's not boring, and not just for "sissies."

allan iverson said after he met with theiry henry that he got converted into liking soccer after watching the world cup last time around. kobe asked, what if for someone like him it was ingrained in his head to be a soccer player like it was to be a b-ball player? last summer i turned some of my staff at a camp onto the sport, by showing them ronaldinho highlights on youtube. he then kept showing me more as the year went on, and before that he never cared about the game at all.

the more that happens, the better the u.s. will be. we're not there now, but i think it will improve.

Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
orangeblobman
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6/28/2009  5:17 PM
Posted by PresIke:

i think the US was fatigued by the middle of the 2nd half, and brasil changed their strategy for their point of attack, which with their amazingly skilled players, they could do.

the first goal didn't come from a breakaway, that was a normal play, from what i saw.

and the 2nd goal, while it was off of a breakaway, was orchestrated on a level that us players are not traditionally associated with. the feed to donovan, and his strike was beautiful to watch.

the reality is, the u.s. is not as good as the best nations in the world. we're getting better, and we need to tap into other parts of the population and make the game a more sellable sport for athletes to look to as a potential job (studies show that many american soccer players give up after they reach 16 years old or so), and improve our coaching at lower levels (we have too many coaches who just don't "get" the game).

this is not either going to mean that we are now a world cup favorite, that is something i think people need to take a step back and realize. we could be in another tough group where we may not even make the 2nd round, but i think it would be a disappointment if we do not at least do that. however, we are a much better footballing/soccer nation than we ever have been before, and can compete at the highest level against top teams.

we need more skill/creative players with the ball, which is why we are not on the top tier, or doubted by other nations/observers. a disproportionate number of u.s. players come from middle class backgrounds, so we are not tapping into communities that could provide the u.s. with the kinds of players needed to be a top nation. america is more of a hand sport nation, and we don't have a player like a ronhaldino to show kids how cool the sport can be, that it's not boring, and not just for "sissies."

allan iverson said after he met with theiry henry that he got converted into liking soccer after watching the world cup last time around. kobe asked, what if for someone like him it was ingrained in his head to be a soccer player like it was to be a b-ball player? last summer i turned some of my staff at a camp onto the sport, by showing them ronaldinho highlights on youtube. he then kept showing me more as the year went on, and before that he never cared about the game at all.

the more that happens, the better the u.s. will be. we're not there now, but i think it will improve.

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orangeblobman
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6/28/2009  5:20 PM
Posted by PresIke:

why is Germany not called Deutschland or Nederland called the Netherlands or Holland?

it's just language, i think, which sometimes has to do with how it sounds in the other language. in english it's spelled that way.

but generally it would be why all countries aren't called their proper name in other languages.

i would also say this has to do with the history of colonization and imperialism by Europeans & other Western associated cultures (i.e. the U.S. & Australia), who basically decided to call and name countries, cities, people, etc. how they wanted versus the way indigenous or native peoples did.

[Edited by - PresIke on 06-28-2009 4:47 PM]

Colonization and imperialism has a bad ring to it. More accurately, it was the European drive to explore, discover, and learn that led them to traverse seas and, once they arrived, the main attempt was always to better the indigenous populations; unfortunately, most of the time these native populations lacked the capacity and/or will to improve their condition.

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Silverfuel
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6/28/2009  5:24 PM
^I am not going to get baited by your trolling posts today.
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orangeblobman
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6/28/2009  5:26 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:

^I am not going to get baited by your trolling posts today.

It's not trolling, and I don't know why I keep getting that?

Colonialism and Imperialism has a negative connotation to it. No credit is ever given to the actual motives behind European exploration-- the desire to explore, discover, and learn, and, subsequently, to improve the conditions of the native populations as the Europeans saw fit at the time. Nothing to bait, nothing to debate.
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Cosmic
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6/28/2009  5:42 PM
Posted by Silverfuel:
Posted by Cosmic:

As to our US team, VDesai, there are no moral victories. We had an improbable 2-0 lead, we played horrendous defense which led to two quick scores one before the half and one right after, we played slow and lazy, the defensive game plan was a terribly relaxed situation I can't ever recall watching defense played in such a manner we gave them as many free opportunities as possible.
I saw it totally different. I saw a great defensive effort against an unbelievably talented offensive team. I think the problem here is the offense. They couldn't hold the ball for more than 2 minutes. There was no developing an attack or passing to the right place. They would just cross and take shot! Does not work. But the defense was gritty and awesome IMO.

Offensively absolutely how many times did we just plain kick it to the other team from 5 yards away.... but defensively I just did not like how they constantly dropped back and were not aggressive and would rarely challenge the opponent until they were deep into the box. There were rare doubles and rare trap attempts. We let them operate with impunity - in basketball it's like when a player drops off his man and his man pulls up and drills the wide open 3. It's the same idea and it was allowed to happen time and time again. It allowed far too many scoring opportunities and clean looks at the goal. It cost them. I'm surprised Spain did not capitalize. I'd say 65%-70% of both matches were played with the opponent attacking and our defense just sitting back. Didn't like it.
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Silverfuel
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6/28/2009  5:45 PM
Cosmic: Spain does not have a midfielder like Kaka. Kaka just controls the midfield so well defense stands no shot. He knows how to keep the game flowing. He sees everything. David Villa and Torres cannot compete with that. US defense did great against Spain and Brazil. The only difference is Brazil has way too much talent.
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orangeblobman
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6/28/2009  5:50 PM
I didn't see the game, but it seems that USA did something like Greece in the Euro Cup, sit back and counter?
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PresIke
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6/28/2009  7:32 PM
i believe the u.s. team did use that strategy for the most part, although i recall greece using their big guys to score off of headers.

the u.s. team does play good defense, but they won the first half from what i understand.

check this breakdown of events from the NY Times GOAL Blog:

http://goal.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/28/match-tracking-confederation-cup-final-us-vs-brazil/

the second goal did come back

the first goal was off a set play/free kick and then another pass. they almost scored on two other corners too in the fist half. and the 2nd goal was from a counter attack.

i do think the u.s. has a better team than greece, particularly on the offensive end.

altidore and dempsey are probably better than greece's strikers.

dempsey was third most outstanding player in the tournament.

against a team like brasil and the u.s. team's talent level you have to employ that kind of approach, i think.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
orangeblobman
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6/28/2009  8:01 PM
LOL. I thought they won this whole time!!! WOW, no way.
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buddapaw
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6/29/2009  9:11 AM
The fact of the matter is this, in the second half Brazil kicked it up a notch using short accurate passes and utilizing the entire field with the US chasing the entire half. Technically the Brazilians are far superior and with their substitutions were brilliant.

Fabiano will continue to grow into one of the premier strikers in world, US had a strong showing, Altidore and especially Davis needs to work on their striker partnership skills. Donovan was great, he needs to play in a European league to master his skills. I watched a couple of MLS games so far this season and let me tell you I'm not impressed.

With the current salary structure this league will not develop you have players earning 40k a year which is nothing in professional soccer. Infrastructure needs to be developed from the grass roots level. What the MLS in offering is not bringing in the masses and bringing players at the end of their careers will not cut it either.
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orangeblobman
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6/29/2009  11:03 AM
^I know why soccer is doomed, still, in the United States, from my own experience-- I grew up poor and the only sport available to me was basketball; a ball and a public park hoop was my salvation. The kids that played soccer and hockey in my school all came from the hilly part of town, they were all well-off, or at least close to it. They traveled on soccer teams, went to play hockey, all that stuff.

So, until we see large areas of grass or dirt designated to soccer (the way we see parks for basketball), we won't have a world-class squad. In my home country, everyone plays soccer, they get together and turn a field into a pitch; here, it's far too organized, monopolized, and held captive by the burgois mini-van driving soccer moms who treat it as a luxury activity instead of the raw, pure sport that it is.

[Edited by - orangeblobman on 06-29-2009 11:15 AM]
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Silverfuel
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6/29/2009  7:57 PM
^I disagree.

Soccer is the ultimate poor mans game. All you need is a ball. Even basketball needs a hoop. For soccer, you just need a ball. I have seen kids in Brazil playing soccer on the street. I've seen them make a ball out of rolled up socks. I have seen kids playing barefoot in the sand. There is a reason why its the most popular sport in the world!
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firefly
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6/29/2009  8:38 PM
You guys should be very proud of the US' achievement. Losing to Brasil in the Final is no mean feat, and scoring twice against them is doubly so. Theres no shame in this loss and anyone who says this isnt a moral victory, doesnt understand soccer. The next time the US plays, they wont be talked about as the laughing stock of the world. You know, Most money, huge talent pool, no players. Instead they will be the team that gave Brasil a real run for their money. Thats currency in soccer and will earn you goodwill the world over, even in Brasil.

Regarding tactics, I couldnt go through the entire thing on one foot, but suffice it to say that the US did what they could. Cosmic mentioned that he didnt see the defense double teaming and trapping. Believe me hen I say this Cos but if the US had even tried that for 10 minutes, they would have conceded 5 goals more then they did. I see this every week when a superior team plays a less talented team. The only choice the lesser team has of stopping the better team scoring is organization. Hope to score on the break and defend deep. And the US performed that superbly for 45 minutes. But we're talking Brasil here and the US defenders arent that great to start with.

They did everything they should have done. Flat back 4 with no attacking full-backs. Deep-lying central midfield and wingers tracking back. Sometimes you lose to a better team, and theres no shame when that team's Brasil.

Think about what would have happened if they tried double-teaming. You try to hurry Kaka off the ball. But its impossible to hurry Kaka into anything. He will do whatever he wants to do and thats that. So now you have Bocanegra and Spector trying to force Kaka into a mistake. Yu now have Dani Alves or Maicon tearing down the wing, the fullbacks too busy trying to trap Kaka to stop them. Robinho, who has cut to the near edge of the penalty box has drawn Onyewu out of position because Bocanegra's not there any more to keep it flat. Of course Robinho will take the pass, but then immediately thread the ball on to Fabiano, Ramires, Silva or Melo who has sneaked into the box and now has a open goal because you tried to trap Kaka. Simply doesnt work.

Also, I get why people would have wanted Adu and Beasley out there, but its a coaches decision whether he wants the hard men in midfield or the creative men. Against a vastly superior team, like Brasil, you go for the hard men and try and stifle them before they get in good positions around the area. Hey, it worked for 45 minutes and thats nothing to sneeze at when your talking about Brasil.

Be proud of your team. A very impressive display by a team desperate to show the world how good they can be. Fingers crossed for a good World Cup from you guys. All you really need is another serious centreack with Bocanegra and someone to help Donovan create, and I reckon people will ignore the US at their peril.
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