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How about this deal with Milwaukee

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Finestrg
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5/30/2009 12:52 AM

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Posted by martin:
Posted by Finestrg:
Posted by martin:
Posted by BRIGGS:

Chris Duhon 6mm
2011 first round pick restricted to 3
3mm in cash

for
Elson 1.7mm
Ridnour 6.5mm
10th pick in draft

HELL YES I would.

Of course Marty so would I. In a heartbeat. It's a complete no-brainer for the NY Knicks. Would you pull the trigger on this if you were Milwaukee? That's the thing. I say no way. If I'm dealing away my lottery pick I want something much more than an interim backup PG, cash and a future pick in 2011 or 2012 when the Knicks should be a much better team record-wise...

[Edited by - finestrg on 05-29-2009 11:54 PM]

A majority of the owners are in this thing just for the money.

Duhon for Ridnour is a wash and $1.7M for Elson is straight money for MIL.

PHO sold their 20th pick a couple of years ago for $3M.

By selling the 10th pick ($2.1M) and accepting $3M cash (and including $1.7M for Elison), that's almost a $7M savings. And if they are OVER the cap in 2009, which is very likely, you double the salary of the 10th pick and what would be Elison, so it turns into a > $10M savings for MIL.

You could also factor in the future savings of the 10th pick for 2010 but that's prob a stretch.

$10M for the 10 pick. 20th picks are sold for $3. What's the price and how desperate is the owner?

Well if that's the case, then I'd agrue that the NBA owners who feel that way and wish to conduct business in those terms are in the wrong line of work. That's no owner I want running my team. You pick your spots when it's time to save money (as in S&T deals for Lee and Nate when the time comes) but I wouldn't mess with the 10th pick in this draft if I were Milwaukee. They have a chance to add a big-time upgrade at the point over Duhon, Ridnour, Sessions or anyone else we're talking about here or another good player to add to the mix (suppose they really like an Earl Clark, BJ Mullens or someone else). If you're an owner who has to constantly worry about stuff like that, then maybe it's time to pack it in, sell your team, and go open up a chain of McDowell's Resturants like the one Lisa's father had in Coming to America. I don't know, what do you think?

Seriously, ask yourself, what if Dolan found himself in financial trouble and orchestrated a move like that where he mortgaged our 8th pick to save money? Remember all we're talking about is money in an owner's pocket, no cap break or anything like that. Or say Walsh panicked early on and chose to include our lottery pick in a trade to unload Zach. How would you feel about either of those moves? To say a majority of Knick fans would be irrate over moves like that would be an understatement. This isn't baseball, there's a salary cap in place - some owners are a little more well off than others but there are rules in place. All owners in the NBA compete on a even playing field. As such, if an NBA owner either can't or won't find ways to pump money back into his product and can't or won't strive to make his product the best it can be then that owner, regardless of how old he is, how much he's worth, how long he's been around, needs to seriously re-evaluate where he's at in life. Maybe he's in over his head. When you play the game Monopoly, when do you start mortgaging your properties? While it's still early in the game when you still have a good deal of money & you're building up your collection of properties -- when you're trying to win and beat the guy next to you basically -- or 4 hours into the game when your wife's mopping the floor with you and all you have left to your name is 6 bucks and a get out of jail free card? That's when it's time to pack it in.. You never give anything away in Monopoly until you absolutely have to. During the majority of the game, you're looking to get lucky & make trades to get what you need. Say you land on Boardwalk or Park Place early or mid-way thru the game. Well that's your lottery pick for all intent and purposes. What do you do, mortgage it away to the bank immediately for money? Of course not. Why would you do that? A bit of a crude example but the same principles apply to NBA owners pretty much.

[Edited by - finestrg on 05-30-2009 01:40 AM]

AUTOADVERT

Finestrg
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5/30/2009 1:23 AM

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And which is it Briggs? First, you want this 10th pick for the Knicks to hopefully draft BJ Mullens who you think is the next coming of Christ, and now, from Milwaukee's perspective, you're insinuating the 10th pick won't amount to much in a "iffy draft" and should be sold by Milwaukee (a bad team with marginal talent, a team in need of improvement) because they're "hurting for cash." Well which is it? Is it a bad draft or not?

[Edited by - finestrg on 05-30-2009 01:44 AM]

earthmansurfer
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5/30/2009 3:16 AM

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I can see the bucks doing that trade. The thing that most of us are missing with these trades is that these teams are starting to hurt. Yeah, Phoenix had a nice roster and wanted to save money and the Bucks may not have a nice roster, but they are joining the ever increasing club of "NBA survival".

If you all haven't noticed things are getting worse and picks will be for sale. Maybe Briggs deal isn't good enough but it's damn close and 7.5 million is not monopoly money (anymore

). We need to work the phones and pick up another pick, to get either Mullins or another player to groom. Nothing lost in trying. We have the spots...

The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. Albert Einstein

Finestrg
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5/30/2009 11:02 AM

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Like I told Martin earlier, it's a no-brainer for the Knicks. I'd love to see Donnie pull the trigger on a trade like this while at the same time, convince Dolan to purchase as many picks as he can in this draft. This isn't about the Knicks though. It's about a lousy Buck team passing on it's lottery pick in exchange for money. That's what this boils down to and it's just not right man. As a fan of that team out there, you can't possible accept something like that. That'd be hard to swallow man. To me, if this one-sided trade ever happened (and to me it's a completely one-sided basketball trade - as a fan, money being exchanged between owners, though necessary at times, isn't something that really interests me - nor should it), it shows that a guy like Herb Kohl might be ready to throw in the towel and start waving the white flag. Again, what would a trade like this show the Bucks fans, the few decent players already on the roster like a Michael Redd and also pending FAs that Milwaukee should be trying to court? It's not like Kohl doesn't have options here - either sell the whole team off and retire from ownership (the team's said to be worth around $280 million) or if the city of Milwaukee itself is the problem, consider relocating the team to a better area where people care more and where you could generate a profit. The loyal Bucks fan would understand if the team just wasn't being supported in Milwaukee anymore and Kohl was forced to leave. Those fans could go out and get the NBA package and still watch every game. I'd be more apt to believe fans would understand an owner being forced to relocate his team over an owner giving away his lottery pick for a bag of rocks & cash, whatever the amount. Good luck trying to get fans to empathize with an owner like that man. Me personally, I'd be looking for a different team to root for...

[Edited by - finestrg on 05-30-2009 11:33 AM]

BRIGGS
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5/30/2009 11:41 AM

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Posted by Finestrg:

Like I told Martin earlier, it's a no-brainer for the Knicks. I'd love to see Donnie pull the trigger on a trade like this while at the same time, convince Dolan to purchase as many picks as he can in this draft. This isn't about the Knicks though. It's about a lousy Buck team passing on it's lottery pick in exchange for money. That's what this boils down to and it's just not right man. As a fan of that team out there, you can't possible accept something like that. That'd be hard to swallow man. To me, if this one-sided trade ever happened (and to me it's a completely one-sided basketball trade - as a fan, money being exchanged between owners, though necessary at times, isn't something that really interests me - nor should it), it shows that a guy like Herb Kohl might be ready to throw in the towel and start waving the white flag. Again, what would a trade like this show the Bucks fans, the few decent players already on the roster like a Michael Redd and also pending FAs that Milwaukee should be trying to court? It's not like Kohl doesn't have options here - either sell the whole team off and retire from ownership (the team's said to be worth around $280 million) or if the city of Milwaukee itself is the problem, consider relocating the team to a better area where people care more and where you could generate a profit. The loyal Bucks fan would understand if the team just wasn't being supported in Milwaukee anymore and Kohl was forced to leave. Those fans could go out and get the NBA package and still watch every game. I'd be more apt to believe fans would understand an owner being forced to relocate his team over an owner giving away his lottery pick for a bag of rocks & cash, whatever the amount. Good luck trying to get fans to empathize with an owner like that man. Me personally, I'd be looking for a different team to root for...

[Edited by - finestrg on 05-30-2009 11:33 AM]

What if it's the difference in being able to sign Charlie V or not being able to sign him? What would you rather have as a fan Charlie V and a future 1+2 plus additional possibility of resigning Sessions or just pick 10?
They had pick 8 in a great draft and he did not help the franchise and that hurt them.
It's bad business to assume pick 10 will be better than Villanueva or even Sessions neve rmind both.

RIP Crushalot😞

Finestrg
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5/30/2009 1:59 PM

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Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by Finestrg:

Like I told Martin earlier, it's a no-brainer for the Knicks. I'd love to see Donnie pull the trigger on a trade like this while at the same time, convince Dolan to purchase as many picks as he can in this draft. This isn't about the Knicks though. It's about a lousy Buck team passing on it's lottery pick in exchange for money. That's what this boils down to and it's just not right man. As a fan of that team out there, you can't possible accept something like that. That'd be hard to swallow man. To me, if this one-sided trade ever happened (and to me it's a completely one-sided basketball trade - as a fan, money being exchanged between owners, though necessary at times, isn't something that really interests me - nor should it), it shows that a guy like Herb Kohl might be ready to throw in the towel and start waving the white flag. Again, what would a trade like this show the Bucks fans, the few decent players already on the roster like a Michael Redd and also pending FAs that Milwaukee should be trying to court? It's not like Kohl doesn't have options here - either sell the whole team off and retire from ownership (the team's said to be worth around $280 million) or if the city of Milwaukee itself is the problem, consider relocating the team to a better area where people care more and where you could generate a profit. The loyal Bucks fan would understand if the team just wasn't being supported in Milwaukee anymore and Kohl was forced to leave. Those fans could go out and get the NBA package and still watch every game. I'd be more apt to believe fans would understand an owner being forced to relocate his team over an owner giving away his lottery pick for a bag of rocks & cash, whatever the amount. Good luck trying to get fans to empathize with an owner like that man. Me personally, I'd be looking for a different team to root for...

[Edited by - finestrg on 05-30-2009 11:33 AM]

What if it's the difference in being able to sign Charlie V or not being able to sign him? What would you rather have as a fan Charlie V and a future 1+2 plus additional possibility of resigning Sessions or just pick 10?
They had pick 8 in a great draft and he did not help the franchise and that hurt them.
It's bad business to assume pick 10 will be better than Villanueva or even Sessions neve rmind both.

No I'll tell you what's bad business - forgoing a lottery pick in a bad trade for no apparent reason other than to line a struggling owner's pockets. Real quick and then I'm done with this thread - this is what it boils down to for me: The Bucks salary cap is real top-heavy at the moment. Bogut's the only big long-term investment really -- Redd, Jefferson and Dan Gadzuric all eat up a considerably chunk of their immediate cap but those 3 are short-term - they all come off the books at the end of the 2010/11 season. That's only 2 more full seasons to go. That's a lot of money coming off the books in the not-so-distant future. Plus, 2 of those 3 are damn good players, guys the Bucks may have a chance to get something nice in a trade for, maybe as early as this off-season. What if they chose to go over the cap for a limited time in order to bring back both Charlie V and Sessions and execute the 10 pick? Is that really a stretch? If the 10th pick ever yielded a player who didn't work out for some reason down the road, you can always do what Utah just did with Morris Almond - just refuse to pick up the contract (and that's assuming the player picked at 10 would eventually have no trade value at all - something like this should be a last resort - I didn't really care for how Utah handled Almond to be honest - they knew they didn't like him early on, they should've tried to trade him). But for the time being, don't you owe it to your fans and to the players already on the roster to keep building toward something?? You don't think guys like Bogut, Redd and Jefferson want to see Kohl and co. add to the roster here??? Again, it goes back to what I tried to hammer home earlier - if Herb Kohl is either unwilling or unable to spend some money here to improve his team by retaining or at the very least putting himself in position to retain (because you never know, someone could come along with a crazy offersheet for either guy that wouldn't make any sense to match) two key young pieces and execute on a top-10 lottery pick then that's a MAJOR problem and really sends a horrible message to everyone involved here. If the man's financial troubles run that deep then he has no business running a professional basketball team. End of story.

[Edited by - finestrg on 05-30-2009 2:02 PM]

BRIGGS
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5/30/2009 2:01 PM

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Posted by Finestrg:
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by Finestrg:

Like I told Martin earlier, it's a no-brainer for the Knicks. I'd love to see Donnie pull the trigger on a trade like this while at the same time, convince Dolan to purchase as many picks as he can in this draft. This isn't about the Knicks though. It's about a lousy Buck team passing on it's lottery pick in exchange for money. That's what this boils down to and it's just not right man. As a fan of that team out there, you can't possible accept something like that. That'd be hard to swallow man. To me, if this one-sided trade ever happened (and to me it's a completely one-sided basketball trade - as a fan, money being exchanged between owners, though necessary at times, isn't something that really interests me - nor should it), it shows that a guy like Herb Kohl might be ready to throw in the towel and start waving the white flag. Again, what would a trade like this show the Bucks fans, the few decent players already on the roster like a Michael Redd and also pending FAs that Milwaukee should be trying to court? It's not like Kohl doesn't have options here - either sell the whole team off and retire from ownership (the team's said to be worth around $280 million) or if the city of Milwaukee itself is the problem, consider relocating the team to a better area where people care more and where you could generate a profit. The loyal Bucks fan would understand if the team just wasn't being supported in Milwaukee anymore and Kohl was forced to leave. Those fans could go out and get the NBA package and still watch every game. I'd be more apt to believe fans would understand an owner being forced to relocate his team over an owner giving away his lottery pick for a bag of rocks & cash, whatever the amount. Good luck trying to get fans to empathize with an owner like that man. Me personally, I'd be looking for a different team to root for...

[Edited by - finestrg on 05-30-2009 11:33 AM]

What if it's the difference in being able to sign Charlie V or not being able to sign him? What would you rather have as a fan Charlie V and a future 1+2 plus additional possibility of resigning Sessions or just pick 10?
They had pick 8 in a great draft and he did not help the franchise and that hurt them.
It's bad business to assume pick 10 will be better than Villanueva or even Sessions neve rmind both.

No I'll tell you what's bad business - forgoing a lottery pick in a bad trade for no apparent reason. Real quick and then I'm done with this thread - this is what it boils down to for me: The Bucks salary cap is real top heavy at the moment. Bogut's the only big long-term investment really -- Redd, Jefferson and Dan Gadzuric all eat up a considerably chunk of their immediate cap but those 3 are short-term - they all come off the books at the end of the 2010/11 season. That's only 2 more full seasons to go. That's a lot of money coming off the books in the not-so-distant future. Plus, 2 of those 3 are damn good players, guys the Bucks may have a chance to get something nice in a trade for, maybe as early as this off-season. What if they chose to go over the cap for a limited time in order to bring back both Charlie V and Sessions and execute the 10 pick for the time being? Is that really a stretch? If the 10th pick ever yielded a player who didn't work out for some reason down the road, you can always do what Utah just did with Morris Almond - just refuse to pick up the contract (and that's assuming the player picked at 10 would eventually have no trade value at all - something like this should be a last resort - I didn't really care for how Utah handled Almond to be honest - they knew they didn't like him early on, they should've tried to trade him). But for the time being, don't you owe it to your fans and to the players already on the roster to keep building toward something?? You don't think guys like Bogut, Redd and Jefferson want to see Kohl and co. add to the roster here??? Again, it goes back to what I tried to hammer home earlier - if Herb Kohl is either unwilling or unable to spend some money here to improve his team by retaining or at the very least putting himself in position to retain (because you never know, someone could come along with a crazy offersheet for either guy that wouldn't make any sense to match) two key young pieces and execute on a top-10 lottery pick then that's a MAJOR problem and really sends a horrible message to everyone involved here. If the man's financial troubles run that deep then he has no business running a professional basketball team. End of story.

[Edited by - finestrg on 05-30-2009 1:59 PM]

I'll give you a clue about money--people who have made it don't like to waste it--free advice.

RIP Crushalot😞

TMS
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5/30/2009 9:11 PM

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Posted by madlib:

I don't think the bucks would make this trade, but they are looking to trim a little salary to stay under the salary cap.

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/59412/20090527/bucks_will_be_frugal_this_summer/

It isn't as bad an idea as some of you are making out.

like i said, if we were willing to take on Redd's contract for expirings then i can see us getting their #10... but for $3 mil in cash & $4.5 mil in cap savings, i just don't see it... it's OK to question the logic behind these trades, when u post a trade idea u have to expect to have people disagree w/u on your logic behind it... it happens to all of us.