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Does anyone really think that 2010 changes things?
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TMS
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5/18/2009  11:00 PM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by TMS:

some of u guys consistently miss the point even tho it's been explained time & time again... even if Lebron or Wade don't end up signing here, the main plan for 2010 is to gain cap flexibility so that major roster moves can be made... there are other bignames out there that Donnie will definitely be targetting... names like Amare, Nash, Johnson are obvious ones that stand out... not to mention the fact that cap flexibility allows u to make trades from a position of strength instead of weakness, so we can take on a big contract from another team & no longer have to match the dollars w/crap contracts... who knows what players will become available to us in a trade in 2 years' time? no one... to say that our only chance at attaining a franchise player is through the draft is just plain wrong... there are different ways to give yourself OPTIONS... having options is what Donnie is going after... right now we don't have any but to try & shed some of these dead contracts off our payroll.

That is actually scary when you mention those second tier names. Johnson & Amare are going to in all likelihood demand large contracts that if not max, they will be near max. And those secondary talents do not get you out of the first round.

If we can't land Lebron in 2010, the best thing we can do is hold onto our money and not add a player like Amare or Johnson who will just prolong the mediocrity.

Amare is easily worth a max contract... he's an elite top 5 bigman in the NBA... 1 player can't carry a team deep into the playoffs, u need other supporting role players that go well w/him... if u added Nash & Amare to a Knicks squad with Chandler, Gallo & whoever we draft in this draft, i think that's more than good enough to get past the 1st round of the playoffs... definitely way beyond mediocre... not sure it would win us any championships tho... we'll have to get 2 max guys in free agency in 2010 IMO to have any legit chance at building a championship caliber team & i personally think Donnie Walsh realizes this as well.
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orangeblobman
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5/18/2009  11:05 PM
Amare is not worth a max contract and he is certainly not a top 5 forward in the league. i can name 5 better without effort: dirk, duncan, gasol, bosh, boozer

amare is a malcontent that beefed with mda on a team that averaged 54 wins during mda's time there.
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TMS
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5/18/2009  11:18 PM
Posted by orangeblobman:

Amare is not worth a max contract and he is certainly not a top 5 forward in the league. i can name 5 better without effort: dirk, duncan, gasol, bosh, boozer

amare is a malcontent that beefed with mda on a team that averaged 54 wins during mda's time there.

LOL... dude, do me a favor & go compare Amare's stats side by side to all those guys before u make rash general statements like that... Amare is better than everyone of those guys you just listed w/the possible exception of Dirk & Duncan, & at his age i'd have to say i'd rather have Amare over Duncan too at this point.
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franco12
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5/18/2009  11:20 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by orangeblobman:

Amare is not worth a max contract and he is certainly not a top 5 forward in the league. i can name 5 better without effort: dirk, duncan, gasol, bosh, boozer

amare is a malcontent that beefed with mda on a team that averaged 54 wins during mda's time there.

LOL... dude, do me a favor & go compare Amare's stats side by side to all those guys before u make rash general statements like that... Amare is better than everyone of those guys you just listed w/the possible exception of Dirk & Duncan, & at his age i'd have to say i'd rather have Amare over Duncan too at this point.

He may be a top five- but the reality is there is some question about whether MDA would even want him here.
TMS
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5/18/2009  11:21 PM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by orangeblobman:

Amare is not worth a max contract and he is certainly not a top 5 forward in the league. i can name 5 better without effort: dirk, duncan, gasol, bosh, boozer

amare is a malcontent that beefed with mda on a team that averaged 54 wins during mda's time there.

LOL... dude, do me a favor & go compare Amare's stats side by side to all those guys before u make rash general statements like that... Amare is better than everyone of those guys you just listed w/the possible exception of Dirk & Duncan, & at his age i'd have to say i'd rather have Amare over Duncan too at this point.

He may be a top five- but the reality is there is some question about whether MDA would even want him here.

MDA would be a fool not to want him here... & if he was as selfish to stand in the way of us acquiring a franchise bigman then i'd have to say MDA is the one that needs to go... i don't think he'd put his own interests over the interests of the Knicks tho... if those 2 got along well enough to lead Phoenix to 4 straight 50+ win seasons, then they can make things work in NY.
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franco12
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5/18/2009  11:23 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by franco12:
Posted by TMS:

some of u guys consistently miss the point even tho it's been explained time & time again... even if Lebron or Wade don't end up signing here, the main plan for 2010 is to gain cap flexibility so that major roster moves can be made... there are other bignames out there that Donnie will definitely be targetting... names like Amare, Nash, Johnson are obvious ones that stand out... not to mention the fact that cap flexibility allows u to make trades from a position of strength instead of weakness, so we can take on a big contract from another team & no longer have to match the dollars w/crap contracts... who knows what players will become available to us in a trade in 2 years' time? no one... to say that our only chance at attaining a franchise player is through the draft is just plain wrong... there are different ways to give yourself OPTIONS... having options is what Donnie is going after... right now we don't have any but to try & shed some of these dead contracts off our payroll.

That is actually scary when you mention those second tier names. Johnson & Amare are going to in all likelihood demand large contracts that if not max, they will be near max. And those secondary talents do not get you out of the first round.

If we can't land Lebron in 2010, the best thing we can do is hold onto our money and not add a player like Amare or Johnson who will just prolong the mediocrity.

Amare is easily worth a max contract... he's an elite top 5 bigman in the NBA... 1 player can't carry a team deep into the playoffs, u need other supporting role players that go well w/him... if u added Nash & Amare to a Knicks squad with Chandler, Gallo & whoever we draft in this draft, i think that's more than good enough to get past the 1st round of the playoffs... definitely way beyond mediocre... not sure it would win us any championships tho... we'll have to get 2 max guys in free agency in 2010 IMO to have any legit chance at building a championship caliber team & i personally think Donnie Walsh realizes this as well.

Amare, Nash, Chandler, Gallo & Stephen Curry don't exactly instill a lot of confidence. That group is undersized and unproven.

Could Nash in 2010 & beyond last a full season? At some point, he will start to slow up and break down.

Amare as a C? Stronger than Lee, but still undersized.

Chandler? Break out season this year, but still questions about whether he will ever bring it to another level. Inconsistent.

Gallo? Can you say back surgery?

Stephen Curry?
TMS
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5/19/2009  12:12 AM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by franco12:
Posted by TMS:

some of u guys consistently miss the point even tho it's been explained time & time again... even if Lebron or Wade don't end up signing here, the main plan for 2010 is to gain cap flexibility so that major roster moves can be made... there are other bignames out there that Donnie will definitely be targetting... names like Amare, Nash, Johnson are obvious ones that stand out... not to mention the fact that cap flexibility allows u to make trades from a position of strength instead of weakness, so we can take on a big contract from another team & no longer have to match the dollars w/crap contracts... who knows what players will become available to us in a trade in 2 years' time? no one... to say that our only chance at attaining a franchise player is through the draft is just plain wrong... there are different ways to give yourself OPTIONS... having options is what Donnie is going after... right now we don't have any but to try & shed some of these dead contracts off our payroll.

That is actually scary when you mention those second tier names. Johnson & Amare are going to in all likelihood demand large contracts that if not max, they will be near max. And those secondary talents do not get you out of the first round.

If we can't land Lebron in 2010, the best thing we can do is hold onto our money and not add a player like Amare or Johnson who will just prolong the mediocrity.

Amare is easily worth a max contract... he's an elite top 5 bigman in the NBA... 1 player can't carry a team deep into the playoffs, u need other supporting role players that go well w/him... if u added Nash & Amare to a Knicks squad with Chandler, Gallo & whoever we draft in this draft, i think that's more than good enough to get past the 1st round of the playoffs... definitely way beyond mediocre... not sure it would win us any championships tho... we'll have to get 2 max guys in free agency in 2010 IMO to have any legit chance at building a championship caliber team & i personally think Donnie Walsh realizes this as well.

Amare, Nash, Chandler, Gallo & Stephen Curry don't exactly instill a lot of confidence. That group is undersized and unproven.

Could Nash in 2010 & beyond last a full season? At some point, he will start to slow up and break down.

Amare as a C? Stronger than Lee, but still undersized.

Chandler? Break out season this year, but still questions about whether he will ever bring it to another level. Inconsistent.

Gallo? Can you say back surgery?

Stephen Curry?

i dunno what you're expecting me to tell u about 2010... do u want guarantees that we'll win championships after 2010? i can't do that for u bro... do u want guarantees that the Knicks will be in a much better position than they're in right now to put together a much better team if they keep freeing up cap space? yeah, i think i can do that for you... if that's not good enough for u then i dunno what else to tell ya bro.
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subzero0
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5/20/2009  11:29 PM
Teams currently in championship contention:

Denver (Anthony)
Cleveland (James)
Lakers (Kobe)
Orlando (Howard)

Anyone seeing a pattern here?

Again, the only way to build a team to win a championship is through the draft. I seriously dont know how many different ways I can say it to some of you guys.
TMS
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5/20/2009  11:38 PM
you win championships w/great players... whether u get those players via the draft, trade or free agency.
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franco12
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5/21/2009  1:39 AM
Posted by subzero0:

Teams currently in championship contention:

Denver (Anthony)
Cleveland (James)
Lakers (Kobe)
Orlando (Howard)

Anyone seeing a pattern here?

Again, the only way to build a team to win a championship is through the draft. I seriously dont know how many different ways I can say it to some of you guys.

more than those guys all being drafted by their current teams, those players are all top 10 talents. And my point about 2010 - unless we are getting a top 10 talent, we should not settle for Joe Johnson to just say we improved
TMS
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5/21/2009  2:33 AM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by subzero0:

Teams currently in championship contention:

Denver (Anthony)
Cleveland (James)
Lakers (Kobe)
Orlando (Howard)

Anyone seeing a pattern here?

Again, the only way to build a team to win a championship is through the draft. I seriously dont know how many different ways I can say it to some of you guys.

more than those guys all being drafted by their current teams, those players are all top 10 talents. And my point about 2010 - unless we are getting a top 10 talent, we should not settle for Joe Johnson to just say we improved

i seem to remember a team called Phoenix was on that final 4 list a couple times just a few years ago... u don't think you'd have been saying the same thing about Amare? isn't he 1 of our options in 2010? so all of a sudden he's not worth settling for? i don't get it... what about Nash? he got there via free agency... didn't he have a serious impact on that franchise to elevate them to championship contender status?... not every team w/a great roster will win the title... only 1 of these teams on this year's final 4 list are gonna win a championship this year... the Lakers won multiple championships after Shaq got there via trade, they didn't draft him... the Heat won after Shaq got there via trade, they didn't draft him... Detroit won because they acquired players via trade... Boston won because they got KG & Ray Allen via trade... having cap flexibility puts u in a better position to make trades to benefit your franchise because you don't have to match the salary you're taking on... it's all about having options like we've explained time & time again... of course we all want Lebron or Wade, but if that doesn't happen the Knicks will have other options... it ain't like only Lebron or Wade will win championships for the next 20 years so regardless if they come here or not, the Knicks will have serious options to help them build a championship calibre roster in 2010 if they keep clearing the dead contracts off this payroll before then.

no one said u foresake the draft in the meantime... the draft is an essential part of building any great team, just like making quality trades & free agent signings are... to say you can only build a champion through the draft is just plain false.
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subzero0
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5/21/2009  3:36 PM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by subzero0:

Teams currently in championship contention:

Denver (Anthony)
Cleveland (James)
Lakers (Kobe)
Orlando (Howard)

Anyone seeing a pattern here?

Again, the only way to build a team to win a championship is through the draft. I seriously dont know how many different ways I can say it to some of you guys.

more than those guys all being drafted by their current teams, those players are all top 10 talents. And my point about 2010 - unless we are getting a top 10 talent, we should not settle for Joe Johnson to just say we improved

Exactly!
subzero0
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5/21/2009  4:01 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by franco12:
Posted by subzero0:

Teams currently in championship contention:

Denver (Anthony)
Cleveland (James)
Lakers (Kobe)
Orlando (Howard)

Anyone seeing a pattern here?

Again, the only way to build a team to win a championship is through the draft. I seriously dont know how many different ways I can say it to some of you guys.

more than those guys all being drafted by their current teams, those players are all top 10 talents. And my point about 2010 - unless we are getting a top 10 talent, we should not settle for Joe Johnson to just say we improved

i seem to remember a team called Phoenix was on that final 4 list a couple times just a few years ago... u don't think you'd have been saying the same thing about Amare? isn't he 1 of our options in 2010? so all of a sudden he's not worth settling for? i don't get it... what about Nash? he got there via free agency... didn't he have a serious impact on that franchise to elevate them to championship contender status?... not every team w/a great roster will win the title... only 1 of these teams on this year's final 4 list are gonna win a championship this year... the Lakers won multiple championships after Shaq got there via trade, they didn't draft him... the Heat won after Shaq got there via trade, they didn't draft him... Detroit won because they acquired players via trade... Boston won because they got KG & Ray Allen via trade... having cap flexibility puts u in a better position to make trades to benefit your franchise because you don't have to match the salary you're taking on... it's all about having options like we've explained time & time again... of course we all want Lebron or Wade, but if that doesn't happen the Knicks will have other options... it ain't like only Lebron or Wade will win championships for the next 20 years so regardless if they come here or not, the Knicks will have serious options to help them build a championship calibre roster in 2010 if they keep clearing the dead contracts off this payroll before then.

no one said u foresake the draft in the meantime... the draft is an essential part of building any great team, just like making quality trades & free agent signings are... to say you can only build a champion through the draft is just plain false.

TMS I respect your argument, I really do but I am sorry your logic is still backwards. I am not saying that signings aren't needed to build your championship team but what I am saying is that you have to begin with the draft before you start signing players or adding players by some other means like subsequent drafts. Allow me to explain. If you start by getting a really good pick and then build around that person with signings. Just because we tried and failed that approach with Ewing doesnt mean that we shouldnt try again.

Since you like bringing up the past championship teams to prove your point allow me to show you just how wrong you are by using your examples.

2008 Boston Celtics - Started with Pierce then added Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett
2007 San Antonio Spurs - Started with Duncan then added Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili
2006 Miami Heat - Started with Wade then added Shaquille O'Neal
2005 San Antonio Spurs - Started with Duncan then added Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili
2004 Detroit Pistons - Hmmm you were right here. Thats 1 point for you. I will come back to this
2003 San Antonio Spurs - Started with David Robinson then added Duncan and Tony Parker
2002 Los Angeles Lakers - Started with Kobe Bryant then added Shaquille O'Neal
2001 Los Angeles Lakers - Started with Kobe Bryant then added Shaquille O'Neal
2000 Los Angeles Lakers - Started with Kobe Bryant then added Shaquille O'Neal
1999 San Antonio Spurs - Started with David Robinson then added Tim Duncan
1998 Chicago Bulls - Started with Michael Jordan then added Scottie Pippen
1997 Chicago Bulls - Started with Michael Jordan then added Scottie Pippen
etc

So lets get to the Detroit Pistons. Truly an anomoly that had team players that didnt cost that much to bring together. Do you think any combination number of these players available in 2010 will sign with New York without breaking the bank? No you say?? Exactly so using the Pistons as an example really isnt that good of a choice, now is it? But Im a nice guy, I will give you a point for that. Ok so that is 1 point for TMS and 11 for me before I stopped counting.

If you start signing players first you become a mediocre team and get mediocre draft picks.
That is why you start with the draft then add players.

Oh and Phoenix doesnt count because they never won a championship. I want to win a championship not be a perennial playoff loser. That really is the main point here. See franco12 gets it, oohah gets it, you dont seem to get it though.


[Edited by - subzero0 on 05-21-2009 4:18 PM]
TMS
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5/22/2009  4:07 AM
dude, trust me i am not discounting the importance of building a core through the draft... everyone knows this... what i'm saying is that it's faulty logic to think that you can ONLY build a championship contender through the draft... you need to take advantage of all avenues open to you, & that includes free agency & making smart trades... it seems like you guys are saying we're just wasting our time by freeing up cap space to create flexibility to make roster moves in 2010, & IMO that's key to the longterm future of this franchise... we can't keep taking on bad contracts thinking that's gonna get us out of this hole we've dug ourselves... we need to make smart decisions when it comes to the draft, cap management, free agency & player trades... there's not just 1 set formula to follow other than bringing in elite players to win championships... whatever way u can get those players needs to be explored & it's good to finally have a GM who finally realizes this.

whatever, u can say i'm not getting the point but it seems to me Donnie is of the same mind that i am that cap flexibility in 2010 is key.

[Edited by - TMS on 05-22-2009 01:09 AM]
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Pharzeone
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5/22/2009  6:42 AM
TMS the plan was to bring was to bring Lebron or Wade or both to NY. If Donnie tries to sell Dolan that crap about having cap flexibility while still missing the playoffs after 2010. Dolan will just say thanks for saving me some cash and send Donnie on his merry way. No way the media even let Dolan forget Donnie's 2010 mission. Dolan don't give a damn about cap flexibility. Chicago had a lot of cap flexibility after 98 up until they signed Ben Wallace. Yet their core components came through the draft. Sometimes that don't mean damn thing.
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5/22/2009  8:29 AM
Posted by TMS:

dude, trust me i am not discounting the importance of building a core through the draft... everyone knows this... what i'm saying is that it's faulty logic to think that you can ONLY build a championship contender through the draft... you need to take advantage of all avenues open to you, & that includes free agency & making smart trades... it seems like you guys are saying we're just wasting our time by freeing up cap space to create flexibility to make roster moves in 2010, & IMO that's key to the longterm future of this franchise... we can't keep taking on bad contracts thinking that's gonna get us out of this hole we've dug ourselves... we need to make smart decisions when it comes to the draft, cap management, free agency & player trades... there's not just 1 set formula to follow other than bringing in elite players to win championships... whatever way u can get those players needs to be explored & it's good to finally have a GM who finally realizes this.

whatever, u can say i'm not getting the point but it seems to me Donnie is of the same mind that i am that cap flexibility in 2010 is key.

[Edited by - TMS on 05-22-2009 01:09 AM]

To win a chip NBA team needs 2 stars + 4-5 very good players.
How far are we from this?
We are exactly 2 stars + 4-5 very good players away?
And some dreamers expect this to be accomplished in 1-2 years... Too much drugs smouking???



"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
franco12
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5/22/2009  10:04 AM
Posted by TMS:

dude, trust me i am not discounting the importance of building a core through the draft... everyone knows this... what i'm saying is that it's faulty logic to think that you can ONLY build a championship contender through the draft... you need to take advantage of all avenues open to you, & that includes free agency & making smart trades... it seems like you guys are saying we're just wasting our time by freeing up cap space to create flexibility to make roster moves in 2010, & IMO that's key to the longterm future of this franchise... we can't keep taking on bad contracts thinking that's gonna get us out of this hole we've dug ourselves... we need to make smart decisions when it comes to the draft, cap management, free agency & player trades... there's not just 1 set formula to follow other than bringing in elite players to win championships... whatever way u can get those players needs to be explored & it's good to finally have a GM who finally realizes this.

whatever, u can say i'm not getting the point but it seems to me Donnie is of the same mind that i am that cap flexibility in 2010 is key.

[Edited by - TMS on 05-22-2009 01:09 AM]

I don't think anyone is saying its bad that we are clearing cap space in anticipation of 2010. We should have started this a long time ago.

However, I don't want us to make the same mistake Orlando did when they failed to get Grant Hill & Duncan and instead settled for a lame, broken Grant Hill and perennially injured, overrated Tracy McGrady.

And that is what I worry is the outcome if we settle for our plan b target of a combo of Joe Johnson & Amare.

If we can't get LeBron, we should just wait. Keep our cap open, and start really building through the draft. And then maybe the year Howard and Chris Paul are potentially available, we should have both cap room and young, cheap assets to potentially develop with one or both of those players, or potentially use in a S&T.

And if we can't get an top rate talented through free agency, continue to try to find that centerpiece through the draft.

The last 10 years Dolan & Co. have thought they couldn't rebuild, that they were 1 player away.

And we've sucked and have nothing to show for it. See, I think, BRIGGS post on our recent draft picks and what we have left. Squat.

We need to bite the bullet, and face reality and acknowledge our past mistakes.

Because until we do, we keep repeating them.

And at some point, I'll seriously lose interest as a Knick fan.
TMS
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5/22/2009  4:41 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:

TMS the plan was to bring was to bring Lebron or Wade or both to NY. If Donnie tries to sell Dolan that crap about having cap flexibility while still missing the playoffs after 2010. Dolan will just say thanks for saving me some cash and send Donnie on his merry way. No way the media even let Dolan forget Donnie's 2010 mission. Dolan don't give a damn about cap flexibility. Chicago had a lot of cap flexibility after 98 up until they signed Ben Wallace. Yet their core components came through the draft. Sometimes that don't mean damn thing.

you're wrong... the hope was to get Lebron or Wade, but the plan was to create cap flexibility in order to target a max FA or 2 in 2010... there's no way the Knicks are coming out of 2010 w/o at least 1 bigname FA IMO... whether that be Lebron, Wade, Amare or someone else, we haven't had a player like that in ages & it makes me scratch my head when people refuse to settle for anything less than Lebron or Wade as if nothing else will do... like i said before, unless u think only Lebron or Wade will win championships from here on out, there are other possible ways to build a championship contender... it's not Lebron or bust like u seem to think it is.
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TMS
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5/22/2009  4:44 PM
Posted by arkrud:
Posted by TMS:

dude, trust me i am not discounting the importance of building a core through the draft... everyone knows this... what i'm saying is that it's faulty logic to think that you can ONLY build a championship contender through the draft... you need to take advantage of all avenues open to you, & that includes free agency & making smart trades... it seems like you guys are saying we're just wasting our time by freeing up cap space to create flexibility to make roster moves in 2010, & IMO that's key to the longterm future of this franchise... we can't keep taking on bad contracts thinking that's gonna get us out of this hole we've dug ourselves... we need to make smart decisions when it comes to the draft, cap management, free agency & player trades... there's not just 1 set formula to follow other than bringing in elite players to win championships... whatever way u can get those players needs to be explored & it's good to finally have a GM who finally realizes this.

whatever, u can say i'm not getting the point but it seems to me Donnie is of the same mind that i am that cap flexibility in 2010 is key.

[Edited by - TMS on 05-22-2009 01:09 AM]

To win a chip NBA team needs 2 stars + 4-5 very good players.
How far are we from this?
We are exactly 2 stars + 4-5 very good players away?
And some dreamers expect this to be accomplished in 1-2 years... Too much drugs smouking???

what the hell do u think Donnie's trying to do? bring in 2 stars! i don't see anyone here saying we expect championships in 1-2 years so that's coming out of your own imagination... maybe you need to lay off the crack yourself, or learn some reading comprehension.
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TMS
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5/22/2009  4:57 PM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by TMS:

dude, trust me i am not discounting the importance of building a core through the draft... everyone knows this... what i'm saying is that it's faulty logic to think that you can ONLY build a championship contender through the draft... you need to take advantage of all avenues open to you, & that includes free agency & making smart trades... it seems like you guys are saying we're just wasting our time by freeing up cap space to create flexibility to make roster moves in 2010, & IMO that's key to the longterm future of this franchise... we can't keep taking on bad contracts thinking that's gonna get us out of this hole we've dug ourselves... we need to make smart decisions when it comes to the draft, cap management, free agency & player trades... there's not just 1 set formula to follow other than bringing in elite players to win championships... whatever way u can get those players needs to be explored & it's good to finally have a GM who finally realizes this.

whatever, u can say i'm not getting the point but it seems to me Donnie is of the same mind that i am that cap flexibility in 2010 is key.

[Edited by - TMS on 05-22-2009 01:09 AM]

I don't think anyone is saying its bad that we are clearing cap space in anticipation of 2010.

i sorta get the impression that some people ARE saying it... otherwise they're just being sour on whatever the Knicks do because they've been conditioned to doing so (not you)... i dunno any other reason why people would be so down on the 2010 plan... we don't even know who Donnie's gonna get... who knows, maybe the cap flexibility will allow us to trade for someone who's name hasn't even been mentioned in free agency? i find it hilarious how everyone seems to already know exactly what's gonna go down when no one knows what'll happen in 2010, not even Lebron or Wade themselves.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
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Does anyone really think that 2010 changes things?
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