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LivingLegend
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4/1/2009  12:29 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by kingofelpaso:

Sure, Griffin is the more impressive physical specimen, without a doubt.

But dont discount the importance of a PG's ability to impact a team on the whole. Plus, for what its worth, Rubio was just awarded his league's defensive player of the year. Say what you want about the venue each plays at, but Rubio has been playing professionally against grown men for years and has been heralded by our best players in the Olympics.

As much of a freak athlete as Griffin is (Im sure there are a ton of highlights to come in the future), he cant get by on his body alone at the next level.

The decision on who to take needs to be based on more than just physcality


Without Karl Malone John Stockton is not as good. Without John Stockton Karl Malone is still just as good.

That is some turd a** logic you are using their Briggs.

You are basically saying that the point guard position is meaningless -- imparticular the point position as played by an NBA great.

In fact - its quite possible that Karl Malone is an above average never great NBA player without Stockton slipping him 4-5 dimes every night 7 getting him the ball in perfect position for 15 years.
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BRIGGS
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4/1/2009  1:27 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by kingofelpaso:

Sure, Griffin is the more impressive physical specimen, without a doubt.

But dont discount the importance of a PG's ability to impact a team on the whole. Plus, for what its worth, Rubio was just awarded his league's defensive player of the year. Say what you want about the venue each plays at, but Rubio has been playing professionally against grown men for years and has been heralded by our best players in the Olympics.

As much of a freak athlete as Griffin is (Im sure there are a ton of highlights to come in the future), he cant get by on his body alone at the next level.

The decision on who to take needs to be based on more than just physcality


Without Karl Malone John Stockton is not as good. Without John Stockton Karl Malone is still just as good.

i don't even begin to understand the above or how you can come to that conclusion.

Because a guard 1/2 as good as Stockton can get Malone the ball. Without Malone--no way Stockton has even close to the number of assists. Malone is the overwhelming conduit to the duo. he has the physical power and ability to score 25-27 points a game and he wouldve had that without Stockton. Thats not downplaying how good Stockton was but it's not under rating the power strength and ability of Malone. Its easier to replace Stockton than Malone.

Like someone mentioned above--lets hope we have the scant chance to make that decision. If we do--then I think the Knicks could see the light after some careful and diligent thought process. Blake Griffin is a dominating athletic frontourt force--he is not some kind of hit or miss 7 footer--he is a unique proven commodity and he will be shoving the ball down the NBA players throats just like he did in college.

[Edited by - BRIGGS on 04-01-2009 1:33 PM]
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fishmike
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4/1/2009  1:42 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by martin:
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by kingofelpaso:

Sure, Griffin is the more impressive physical specimen, without a doubt.

But dont discount the importance of a PG's ability to impact a team on the whole. Plus, for what its worth, Rubio was just awarded his league's defensive player of the year. Say what you want about the venue each plays at, but Rubio has been playing professionally against grown men for years and has been heralded by our best players in the Olympics.

As much of a freak athlete as Griffin is (Im sure there are a ton of highlights to come in the future), he cant get by on his body alone at the next level.

The decision on who to take needs to be based on more than just physcality


Without Karl Malone John Stockton is not as good. Without John Stockton Karl Malone is still just as good.

i don't even begin to understand the above or how you can come to that conclusion.

Because a guard 1/2 as good as Stockton can get Malone the ball. Without Malone--no way Stockton has even close to the number of assists. Malone is the overwhelming conduit to the duo. he has the physical power and ability to score 25-27 points a game and he wouldve had that without Stockton. Thats not downplaying how good Stockton was but it's not under rating the power strength and ability of Malone. Its easier to replace Stockton than Malone.

Like someone mentioned above--lets hope we have the scant chance to make that decision. If we do--then I think the Knicks could see the light after some careful and diligent thought process. Blake Griffin is a dominating athletic frontourt force--he is not some kind of hit or miss 7 footer--he is a unique proven commodity and he will be shoving the ball down the NBA players throats just like he did in college.

[Edited by - BRIGGS on 04-01-2009 1:33 PM]
I disagree... look around the league. There are an equal amount of elite pgs as their are bigmen, followed by an equal amount of lesser tier guys. Whats really rare is when they get to play together.

Did Ewing have a bigger impact on the Knicks than Gary Payton had on the Sonics? Glove made a lot of decent players look great over the years but was never able to win a title. Same with Ewing.

There is a sentiment in the NBA thats its ok to miss if you miss big. I think history shows that an elite PG has just as big an impact as an elite big. They just affect the game in different ways.

If you have an elite PG or an Elite center your going to be a good team for a very long time.
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djsunyc
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4/1/2009  1:51 PM
nba today, you can not win unless you have scoring from the perimeter. big men can not carry teams offense anymore. but a team with a good big man AND perimeter scorers can win big in the league. with that said, you can find way more scorers from the wings than a legitimate big man down low so the gamble has to be taken on a big for a higher return (w/ the higher risk) - if you want to win big. if you just want to win, then you draft the scorer from the wing and hope he turns out to be brandon roy.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 04-01-2009 1:52 PM]
BRIGGS
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4/1/2009  1:53 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by martin:
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by kingofelpaso:

Sure, Griffin is the more impressive physical specimen, without a doubt.

But dont discount the importance of a PG's ability to impact a team on the whole. Plus, for what its worth, Rubio was just awarded his league's defensive player of the year. Say what you want about the venue each plays at, but Rubio has been playing professionally against grown men for years and has been heralded by our best players in the Olympics.

As much of a freak athlete as Griffin is (Im sure there are a ton of highlights to come in the future), he cant get by on his body alone at the next level.

The decision on who to take needs to be based on more than just physcality


Without Karl Malone John Stockton is not as good. Without John Stockton Karl Malone is still just as good.

i don't even begin to understand the above or how you can come to that conclusion.

Because a guard 1/2 as good as Stockton can get Malone the ball. Without Malone--no way Stockton has even close to the number of assists. Malone is the overwhelming conduit to the duo. he has the physical power and ability to score 25-27 points a game and he wouldve had that without Stockton. Thats not downplaying how good Stockton was but it's not under rating the power strength and ability of Malone. Its easier to replace Stockton than Malone.

Like someone mentioned above--lets hope we have the scant chance to make that decision. If we do--then I think the Knicks could see the light after some careful and diligent thought process. Blake Griffin is a dominating athletic frontourt force--he is not some kind of hit or miss 7 footer--he is a unique proven commodity and he will be shoving the ball down the NBA players throats just like he did in college.

[Edited by - BRIGGS on 04-01-2009 1:33 PM]
I disagree... look around the league. There are an equal amount of elite pgs as their are bigmen, followed by an equal amount of lesser tier guys. Whats really rare is when they get to play together.

Did Ewing have a bigger impact on the Knicks than Gary Payton had on the Sonics? Glove made a lot of decent players look great over the years but was never able to win a title. Same with Ewing.

There is a sentiment in the NBA thats its ok to miss if you miss big. I think history shows that an elite PG has just as big an impact as an elite big. They just affect the game in different ways.

If you have an elite PG or an Elite center your going to be a good team for a very long time.

There are a lot of solid big men--there is only one Blake Griffin. He is going to be a 25-12 player. His combination of power and athletic ability is on the same level as Dwight Howard--he cant block shots like Dwight but he is better offensive player. This guy is a franchise big man. Ricky Rubio is only a marginal player in the Euro league. No foreign player is even close to Blake in terms of age. Come to the US and play for Oklahoma and average 22 points and 13 assists shooting 58% and I will believe,
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martin
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4/1/2009  1:58 PM
BRIGGS, how much of Rubio have you seen play versus Blake?
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BRIGGS
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4/1/2009  2:03 PM
Posted by martin:

BRIGGS, how much of Rubio have you seen play versus Blake?

I have access to youtube just like you. It's not even a question---atleast 29 NBA teams would take Griffin one without hesitation. We are the Knicks and the 30th team with our *system*
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martin
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4/1/2009  2:09 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by martin:

BRIGGS, how much of Rubio have you seen play versus Blake?

I have access to youtube just like you. It's not even a question---atleast 29 NBA teams would take Griffin one without hesitation. We are the Knicks and the 30th team with our *system*

so relatively speaking, nada. Thanks.

I don't doubt that Griffin may be as good as you say in the NBA, but your comparisons and judgment on Rubio dont hold up.
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BRIGGS
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4/1/2009  2:18 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by martin:

BRIGGS, how much of Rubio have you seen play versus Blake?

I have access to youtube just like you. It's not even a question---atleast 29 NBA teams would take Griffin one without hesitation. We are the Knicks and the 30th team with our *system*

so relatively speaking, nada. Thanks.

I don't doubt that Griffin may be as good as you say in the NBA, but your comparisons and judgment on Rubio dont hold up.
My comment here was the Knicks would be insane if they picked Ricky Rubio over Griffin. I would take several guys over Rubio. To project a skinny 6-3 foreign player to be that good is stretching the bar. Lets see him go up against physical mote athletic American players in OUR game first. You cant project that without seeing it.

[Edited by - BRIGGS on 04-01-2009 2:22 PM]
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tkf
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4/1/2009  2:23 PM
Posted by MS:

I'm with you. If we land the number one pick we have an all-star for the next decade but that's not likely to happen unless Stern grants us a miracle.

Had we drafted Randolph this season we most likely would have taken the second best player in the draft. That kid is going to be one of the best shotblockers in the entire league and could have grown into a center in Mikes lineup and paired with chandler would have given us a legit defensive frontcourt.

Walsh don't **** it up again.

The randolph talk again? wow.. I think batum is better than randolph, in every aspect...
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tkf
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4/1/2009  2:28 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by martin:
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by kingofelpaso:

Sure, Griffin is the more impressive physical specimen, without a doubt.

But dont discount the importance of a PG's ability to impact a team on the whole. Plus, for what its worth, Rubio was just awarded his league's defensive player of the year. Say what you want about the venue each plays at, but Rubio has been playing professionally against grown men for years and has been heralded by our best players in the Olympics.

As much of a freak athlete as Griffin is (Im sure there are a ton of highlights to come in the future), he cant get by on his body alone at the next level.

The decision on who to take needs to be based on more than just physcality


Without Karl Malone John Stockton is not as good. Without John Stockton Karl Malone is still just as good.

i don't even begin to understand the above or how you can come to that conclusion.

Because a guard 1/2 as good as Stockton can get Malone the ball. Without Malone--no way Stockton has even close to the number of assists. Malone is the overwhelming conduit to the duo. he has the physical power and ability to score 25-27 points a game and he wouldve had that without Stockton. Thats not downplaying how good Stockton was but it's not under rating the power strength and ability of Malone. Its easier to replace Stockton than Malone.

Like someone mentioned above--lets hope we have the scant chance to make that decision. If we do--then I think the Knicks could see the light after some careful and diligent thought process. Blake Griffin is a dominating athletic frontourt force--he is not some kind of hit or miss 7 footer--he is a unique proven commodity and he will be shoving the ball down the NBA players throats just like he did in college.

[Edited by - BRIGGS on 04-01-2009 1:33 PM]


I kind of agree with briggs here... Malone was the force behind that duo. Stockton was good no doubt, but I think even a good PG could have delivered those passes to malone, but not just any good PF could finish the way malone could.. Blake is an elite level athlete, great hands, strength and explosiveness.. with blake it is one step and destruction.... As much as we love david lee, those pick and roll shots he misses where a taller or stronger defender contests his shot, would be slammed down by griffin... A lot of NBA bigs are going to be in griffin's poster..
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nixluva
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4/1/2009  2:34 PM
It's an interesting argument. A Chris Paul can bring wins just as much as a Dwight Howard. You have to look at overall talent vs. position when it comes to PG vs. PF. Is Blake going to be a better player than Rubio, period. It's a tough thing to call, but at this point I can only speak on Blake. I've seen very little of Rubio.
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4/1/2009  2:35 PM
Payton didn't have near the impact that Ewing did and Ewing didn't have his supporting cast. Randloph is light years ahead of Batum.

And Blake Griffin has every major quality you want in a player. He can handle the ball, run the floor, jump out of the building is strong inside and has an nba ready body. He just needs to improve his jumper. There are very few players like him out there. He is going to be a better version of boozer with defensive ability. There is zero chance we get the guy, but if we did you can be assured we get a big time free agent in 2010
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4/1/2009  2:36 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by martin:
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by martin:

BRIGGS, how much of Rubio have you seen play versus Blake?

I have access to youtube just like you. It's not even a question---atleast 29 NBA teams would take Griffin one without hesitation. We are the Knicks and the 30th team with our *system*

so relatively speaking, nada. Thanks.

I don't doubt that Griffin may be as good as you say in the NBA, but your comparisons and judgment on Rubio dont hold up.
My comment here was the Knicks would be insane if they picked Ricky Rubio over Griffin. I would take several guys over Rubio. To project a skinny 6-3 foreign player to be that good is stretching the bar. Lets see him go up against physical mote athletic American players in OUR game first. You cant project that without seeing it.

[Edited by - BRIGGS on 04-01-2009 2:22 PM]

DOn't disagree with your first comment bolded.

And I think you just highlighted my second point with your last sentence. I am guessing that none of us have seen enough of Rubio to make any type of judgment on him yet. Don't think he is going to be in this draft anyway.
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4/1/2009  4:08 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by Paladin55:
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by Pharzeone:

Besides Griffin, if Rubio puts his name in the draft like he wants would your order change?

No way
The Knicks would take Rubio over DeRozan or Evans, IMHO, and if we somehow get the #1 pick with Rubio in the draft we would trade our pick to drop down a slot if we could parlay Griffin for Rubio and an extra #1 in this year's draft or next year's.

I have to think that MDA would be having wet dreams about Ricky if he realized we had a chance to pick him.

Thats insane. Blake Griffin is the second coming of Karl Malone. Who in their right minds would be so careless.

There are better ways of responding than questioning a person's sanity. My self-esteem might be damaged.

I would not call him the second coming of Malone because we don't know whether his outside game will evolve. I think he drives to the basket off the dribble better than Malone, but I have doubts about his ability to defend like Malone.


A couple of questions about Griffin. How tall is he? I will bet that pre-draft measurements will show him to be about 6'8.5" tops. He is not 6'10" and he is not a PF/C in my opinion. (Two of the most egregious examples of height exaggeration that I know of have come from Griffin's conference. Michael Beasley was listed at 6'10" and turned out to be 6'7," and way back in 1985 Wayman Tisdale, who followed Ewing in the draft, was listed at over 6'9" even though he was more like 6'6" or 6'7".)

I don't think Griffin will dominate inside, like he did in college, against the size, strength, and length of most NBA interior players. He will get his points, but he will really have to adapt his game. Defensively, he is going to be challenged. He reminded me of D.Lee at times in the way he did not contest shots against NC. If he was really 6'10" he would have blocked many more shots given his great athletic ability. He plays the passing lanes well, and has great quickness, but he is no defensive PF stud. Ultimately he will be a decent defender who has trouble with players possessing a good post-up game.

To me he plays like a very powerful SF who does not have an outside shot- perhaps a larger version of Shawn Marion without the range on his jumper. He is a very intelligent kid, who should be able to adapt and work on his shot, but I have trouble imagining him as a guy who will settle for a jumpshot. If I was a team defending him in the NBA, I would put a SF with good defensive lateral movement on him to force him to shoot from the outside.

Whether or not you like the MDA style of ball, it is predicated on having a PG who can penetrate and either score (which Duhon has great trouble doing) or dish out to our 3pt shooters, and work the pick and roll with a big man. Rubio will have to work on his J, but the form is already there, and he is much more relaxed in his shooting form than Griffin, who seems too tight at times. He defense, based on what I saw in the Olympics, was much better than advertised.

Duhon was never signed to be a permanent solution to our PG problem. Nash may, or may not end up here in his twilight years. Rubio had excellent size but plays a pure PG, unlike Evans, who is more of a combo guard. The other pure points in the draft don't have Rubio's length, and it seems that MDA and Walsh would like a large PG.

I doubt if we will have a choice like this to make in the draft, but it is an interesting topic to argue about, and I don't believe that any of us know for sure what the Knicks will do if they did face the Griffin/Rubio choice.
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BRIGGS
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4/1/2009  7:45 PM
Posted by Paladin55:
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by Paladin55:
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by Pharzeone:

Besides Griffin, if Rubio puts his name in the draft like he wants would your order change?

No way
The Knicks would take Rubio over DeRozan or Evans, IMHO, and if we somehow get the #1 pick with Rubio in the draft we would trade our pick to drop down a slot if we could parlay Griffin for Rubio and an extra #1 in this year's draft or next year's.

I have to think that MDA would be having wet dreams about Ricky if he realized we had a chance to pick him.

Thats insane. Blake Griffin is the second coming of Karl Malone. Who in their right minds would be so careless.

There are better ways of responding than questioning a person's sanity. My self-esteem might be damaged.

I would not call him the second coming of Malone because we don't know whether his outside game will evolve. I think he drives to the basket off the dribble better than Malone, but I have doubts about his ability to defend like Malone.


A couple of questions about Griffin. How tall is he? I will bet that pre-draft measurements will show him to be about 6'8.5" tops. He is not 6'10" and he is not a PF/C in my opinion. (Two of the most egregious examples of height exaggeration that I know of have come from Griffin's conference. Michael Beasley was listed at 6'10" and turned out to be 6'7," and way back in 1985 Wayman Tisdale, who followed Ewing in the draft, was listed at over 6'9" even though he was more like 6'6" or 6'7".)

I don't think Griffin will dominate inside, like he did in college, against the size, strength, and length of most NBA interior players. He will get his points, but he will really have to adapt his game. Defensively, he is going to be challenged. He reminded me of D.Lee at times in the way he did not contest shots against NC. If he was really 6'10" he would have blocked many more shots given his great athletic ability. He plays the passing lanes well, and has great quickness, but he is no defensive PF stud. Ultimately he will be a decent defender who has trouble with players possessing a good post-up game.

To me he plays like a very powerful SF who does not have an outside shot- perhaps a larger version of Shawn Marion without the range on his jumper. He is a very intelligent kid, who should be able to adapt and work on his shot, but I have trouble imagining him as a guy who will settle for a jumpshot. If I was a team defending him in the NBA, I would put a SF with good defensive lateral movement on him to force him to shoot from the outside.

Whether or not you like the MDA style of ball, it is predicated on having a PG who can penetrate and either score (which Duhon has great trouble doing) or dish out to our 3pt shooters, and work the pick and roll with a big man. Rubio will have to work on his J, but the form is already there, and he is much more relaxed in his shooting form than Griffin, who seems too tight at times. He defense, based on what I saw in the Olympics, was much better than advertised.

Duhon was never signed to be a permanent solution to our PG problem. Nash may, or may not end up here in his twilight years. Rubio had excellent size but plays a pure PG, unlike Evans, who is more of a combo guard. The other pure points in the draft don't have Rubio's length, and it seems that MDA and Walsh would like a large PG.

I doubt if we will have a choice like this to make in the draft, but it is an interesting topic to argue about, and I don't believe that any of us know for sure what the Knicks will do if they did face the Griffin/Rubio choice.

I think you are underestimating his *combination* of power agility and athletic ability. This man is 20 years old weighs 253 pounds and does not have body fat. Im not worried about 6.85 6.95 Amare Stoudemire is 6-8.5 245 and before he was hurt was becoming the dominant PF in the game. When you play 3 feet above the rim with his power and agility--there is NO one who can guard you.
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Paladin55
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4/1/2009  8:22 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:


I think you are underestimating his *combination* of power agility and athletic ability. This man is 20 years old weighs 253 pounds and does not have body fat. Im not worried about 6.85 6.95 Amare Stoudemire is 6-8.5 245 and before he was hurt was becoming the dominant PF in the game. When you play 3 feet above the rim with his power and agility--there is NO one who can guard you.
You cant name a stronger PF right now in the NBA--because there is None!
I like Griffin. My comments on his size have to do with the fact that some have even talked about him as a part-time center in the NBA. Forget about the C position, I think he will have defensive problems as a PF, at least in terms of defense in the post, simply because from what I have seen, he is not effective when backed down low. I also think that his height my haunt him at times when he is deep in the paint on offense. I also wonder about his outside shot (just like I wonder about Rubio's, by the way)

Griffin is a tough kid who can play like a bull at times, but also make some great passes when needed and make some amazingly fast and agile moves to the basket when he is around it. I would be happy if we got him, but I feel that Rubio, another guy we will probably not get, would be a perfect fit for the Knicks as a team and NYC as a town.
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4/1/2009  9:11 PM
Posted by Paladin55:
Posted by BRIGGS:


I think you are underestimating his *combination* of power agility and athletic ability. This man is 20 years old weighs 253 pounds and does not have body fat. Im not worried about 6.85 6.95 Amare Stoudemire is 6-8.5 245 and before he was hurt was becoming the dominant PF in the game. When you play 3 feet above the rim with his power and agility--there is NO one who can guard you.
You cant name a stronger PF right now in the NBA--because there is None!
I like Griffin. My comments on his size have to do with the fact that some have even talked about him as a part-time center in the NBA. Forget about the C position, I think he will have defensive problems as a PF, at least in terms of defense in the post, simply because from what I have seen, he is not effective when backed down low. I also think that his height my haunt him at times when he is deep in the paint on offense. I also wonder about his outside shot (just like I wonder about Rubio's, by the way)

Griffin is a tough kid who can play like a bull at times, but also make some great passes when needed and make some amazingly fast and agile moves to the basket when he is around it. I would be happy if we got him, but I feel that Rubio, another guy we will probably not get, would be a perfect fit for the Knicks as a team and NYC as a town.

I think being born and raised in Brooklyn NY I feel I know something about NYC. The New York fan would always want the big guy--if this ever happened the wrath of fans and the furor of the media would smash this kid to pieces. NO NY wants a bruising frontcourt player like they have been accustomed to when they were winning. Willis Reed Patrick Ewing Charles Oakley etc.. and dont bring up the name Walt Frazier--because that is an insult to Clyde.
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4/2/2009  12:04 AM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

We're not going to win the lottery so we can stop the Griffin talk.

we have about an 8% chance of getting 2/3.

if we can somehow get the #2 or #3 i'd take Derozan... i think other than Blake Griffin, that kid's got the most potential to be a franchise changing type player
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4/2/2009  6:41 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

We're not going to win the lottery so we can stop the Griffin talk.

we have about an 8% chance of getting 2/3.

if we can somehow get the #2 or #3 i'd take Derozan... i think other than Blake Griffin, that kid's got the most potential to be a franchise changing type player


My camp is

1 Griffin
2 Evans
3 DErozan
4 trade down to get Mullens and and an extra pick this year or next year[he is going to surprise people with his offensive skills I think right away and we need a big guy so badly I think they can teach him defense but he's an NBA finisher today. Now will he work hard in the offseason and is he tough willed---I think he looks like he is. Hes got a bit of a tude.


The best scenario would be to get Griffin and Mullens:) by luck and trade.

If you look at the board 8-15 those teams in between dont need a C. Chicago owns picks 15 and 25. If those top3 guys are not there--we may be able to swing a deal with Chicago where we move down to 15+25 and they move up to 8. Mullens *should* slide to 15 and I think we can find a real decent player at 25.The problem is at 7-1 275 and hes getting a head start on training ONE workout with ONE team could change the deal. I would say that I *might* be willing to pull the trigger on him at 8-9 IF the other guys are not there to be safe. I want the upper tier talent but if it's not there I want the big man. And I would be taking Evans as my PG not a SG.

[Edited by - BRIGGS on 04-02-2009 6:47 PM]
RIP Crushalot😞
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