Posted by KnicksSince88:

Duhon Off Court On Court

Per 100 possessions
On court- Knicks score 107.9
Off court- Knicks score 110.5

Knicks Effective FG%
On Court- 49.9
Off Court- 52.8

Clearly the Knick offense runs better with Duhon off the floor and fairly significantly. And who's generally running the point when Duhon is not on the floor? There lies your answer

Posted by martin:

Posted by KnicksSince88:

Here is the link

And in addition our defense plays better when hes off the floor, and the difference is even more significant than the offensive dropoff

http://www.82games.com/0809/08NYK2.HTM#onoff

this still doesn't provide an enough of a look. Does it take into account who we have played against (teams), who Duhon plays with on the floor (his numbers are skewed 2000/500 minutes on/off court), and the fact that the Knicks overall are under .500.

two examples:

1) Nate comes off the bench and plays against second stringers. The Nate's and Duhon's rolls are reversed, ie Nate plays against players who are inferior, how does that effect the +/-.

2) If Lee was on the Celtics instead of the Knicks, how would that effect the stats.

Its very true that on court/off court numbers can be misleading at times due to some of the very factors you name. But a couple of points

Its not as if every time Duhon is off the floor the Knicks are playing against 5 reserves, and its not as if every time Nate is on the floor the Knicks are playing against scrubs. Nate may start the game off the bench, but hes playing 30 min a night and hes playing in crunch time every single night. I can't remember the last time Nate wasn't on the floor with the game in the balance in the final 7-8 minutes of a close game. And the Knicks are simply a much much better team with him on the floor in any capacity, either at PG or at the two. When hes out of the game we are simply a bad basketball team. We start slow nearly every night

Also, i would be more willing to write off Duhon's on court/off court numbers if the difference wasn't so stark. We are talking about a massive massive improvement both offensively and defensively when hes not on the floor. I don't have a problem with Duhon if he wasn't playing 37 minutes a night. Thats simply way too many minutes for a guy who is a below average NBA starting PG

[Edited by - knickssince88 on 02-24-2009 3:09 PM]

[Edited by - knickssince88 on 02-24-2009 3:09 PM]

that's always the crux whenever Knick fans discuss a player's quality... they don't consider the factors of injury, of how these players have been performing over the entire season... it's always "what have u done for me lately"... Nate's playing like a stud of late so he is God & can do no wrong... Duhon's had a few off nights & has looked lethargic & tired even after he's been a good PG for us all year long, so now he's just garbage... if Nate has a bad stretch next week does he go back to being a role player again? is that how it works? just checking.

Posted by martin:

Posted by KnicksSince88:

Posted by martin:

Posted by KnicksSince88:

Here is the link

And in addition our defense plays better when hes off the floor, and the difference is even more significant than the offensive dropoff

http://www.82games.com/0809/08NYK2.HTM#onoff

this still doesn't provide an enough of a look. Does it take into account who we have played against (teams), who Duhon plays with on the floor (his numbers are skewed 2000/500 minutes on/off court), and the fact that the Knicks overall are under .500.

two examples:

1) Nate comes off the bench and plays against second stringers. The Nate's and Duhon's rolls are reversed, ie Nate plays against players who are inferior, how does that effect the +/-.

2) If Lee was on the Celtics instead of the Knicks, how would that effect the stats.

Its very true that on court/off court numbers can be misleading at times due to some of the very factors you name. But a couple of points

Its not as if every time Duhon is off the floor the Knicks are playing against 5 reserves, and its not as if every time Nate is on the floor the Knicks are playing against scrubs. Nate may start the game off the bench, but hes playing 30 min a night and hes playing in crunch time every single night. I can't remember the last time Nate wasn't on the floor with the game in the balance in the final 7-8 minutes of a close game. And the Knicks are simply a much much better team with him on the floor in any capacity, either at PG or at the two. When hes out of the game we are simply a bad basketball team. We start slow nearly every night

Also, i would be more willing to write off Duhon's on court/off court numbers if the difference wasn't so stark. We are talking about a massive massive improvement both offensively and defensively when hes not on the floor. I don't have a problem with Duhon if he wasn't playing 37 minutes a night. Thats simply way too many minutes for a guy who is a below average NBA starting PG

[Edited by - knickssince88 on 02-24-2009 3:09 PM]

[Edited by - knickssince88 on 02-24-2009 3:09 PM]

in the same token, Lee's on/off numbers are: -3.2/+1.2 while TT numbers are: +2.0/-3.8

You can't take the numbers and conclude. Too much variance. http://www.82games.com/0809/0809NYK.HTM

Lee's numbers are exactly what I expect them to be. We are better offensively with him on the floor than off the floor (2 more pts per 100 possessions). And we are worse defensively with him on the floor than off the floor. We are also a better rebounding team with him on the floor. The on court/off court for Lee is about exactly what i would expect it to be. Im not talking about +/- as much as i am how the offense and defense play with a player in the game relative to how they play when hes out of the game. With Lee on the floor we are better offensively and we are a better rebounding team. He plays zero defense and we are clearly worse defensively when hes in there. We rebound better with him in there. So hes a plus for us offensively and on the glass, he brings us value in both those areas

For Duhon, we are better with him OFF the floor by every measure imaginable. Better offensively, better defensively, better period

In regards to Tim Thomas, keep in mind that when he played here he was on the floor at the same time Nate was on the floor an overwhelming majority of the time. And as we have noticed Nate has the biggest impact of anyone on this team when it comes to on court/off court splits. Obviously thats gonna give Tim Thomas a little boost in these stats
[Edited by - knickssince88 on 02-24-2009 4:53 PM]

[Edited by - knickssince88 on 02-24-2009 4:54 PM]

[Edited by - knickssince88 on 02-24-2009 5:19 PM]

[Edited by - knickssince88 on 02-24-2009 5:25 PM]

Posted by Cartman718:

Posted by TMS:

Duhon's still the same guy that has the Knicks' record for most assists in a game right? just checking... carry on.

the fact is that this is the first season for either nate or duhon under d'antoni and duhon "carried the torch" at pg for the first half. nate can do it at pg for the 2nd half. i bet both of them would have worn down by this time didnt matter which one of them started at PG and played so many minutes.

Posted by Rookie:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by Cartman718:

Posted by TMS:

Duhon's still the same guy that has the Knicks' record for most assists in a game right? just checking... carry on.

the fact is that this is the first season for either nate or duhon under d'antoni and duhon "carried the torch" at pg for the first half. nate can do it at pg for the 2nd half. i bet both of them would have worn down by this time didnt matter which one of them started at PG and played so many minutes.

agreed about the wearing down point u made, but i don't see why these 2 need to change their roles... they're both doing a good job where MDA has them playing, why mess w/it?

Maybe a few tweaks will turn those 'feel good' losses into feel good wins. We need to play better than .500 from here on out. With our schedule, a team worthy of the playoffs can do it. I want us to beat down Starbury's chowder eating arse in the first round. F those bastuhn bastuhds