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Playoffs or Lottery??
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eViL
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It's time for the great debate again -- which would you prefer:
I want the Knicks to make the playoffs
I want the Knicks to have a better lottery position
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TMS
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1/28/2009  10:26 PM
Posted by islesfan:

You guys are nuts. No good comes from getting swept by Boston. I'd rather have any shot at Griffin and the higher draft pick.

Next year we can worry about the playoffs.

agreed completely... even if we can't land Griffin, i would at least like a legitimate shot at drafting a guy like Thabeet, Jennings, Hill, etc... i don't wanna end up w/a #14 pick w/o another pick to try & move up in the draft to work with as well... i think the time to tank is now, then u aim to set up a winning atmosphere next season in preparation for the free agent bonanza... next season we don't own our pick so that's the year we need to start thinking playoffs, not now.
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Allanfan20
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1/28/2009  10:43 PM
people used the same old lame argument that those 2 kids would gain valuable playoff experience if we somehow managed to sneak into the playoffs that year.

You can call the arguement anything you want, but it doesn't mean you're right. I think it's equally as important to make the playoffs, and yes, the playoff experience is crucial.
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TMS
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1/28/2009  10:44 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:
people used the same old lame argument that those 2 kids would gain valuable playoff experience if we somehow managed to sneak into the playoffs that year.

You can call the arguement anything you want, but it doesn't mean you're right. I think it's equally as important to make the playoffs, and yes, the playoff experience is crucial.

it's my opinion, just like ur airing urs... who's to say who's right & wrong here... i'm just saying that's the direction i would go in... ur free to disagree.
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Allanfan20
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1/28/2009  10:49 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Allanfan20:
people used the same old lame argument that those 2 kids would gain valuable playoff experience if we somehow managed to sneak into the playoffs that year.

You can call the arguement anything you want, but it doesn't mean you're right. I think it's equally as important to make the playoffs, and yes, the playoff experience is crucial.

it's my opinion, just like ur airing urs... who's to say who's right & wrong here... i'm just saying that's the direction i would go in... ur free to disagree.

Was just calling you out on calling the arguement lame, when it's in fact a very solid one. Maybe YOU don't agree, but it's my humble opinion that we need to get the winning atmosphere back. Might as well start sooner than later, particularly with a team that's ready to compete. IMO, it's also the best way to make NY an attractive place.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Allanfan20
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1/28/2009  10:49 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Allanfan20:
people used the same old lame argument that those 2 kids would gain valuable playoff experience if we somehow managed to sneak into the playoffs that year.

You can call the arguement anything you want, but it doesn't mean you're right. I think it's equally as important to make the playoffs, and yes, the playoff experience is crucial.

it's my opinion, just like ur airing urs... who's to say who's right & wrong here... i'm just saying that's the direction i would go in... ur free to disagree.

Was just calling you out on calling the arguement lame, when it's in fact a very solid one. Maybe YOU don't agree, but it's my humble opinion that we need to get the winning atmosphere back. Might as well start sooner than later, particularly with a team that's ready to compete. IMO, it's also the best way to make NY an attractive place.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
TMS
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1/28/2009  10:52 PM
next year is when we should be targetting the playoffs IMO, not now... we gotta maximize the value of the pick we own this year cuz we won't have another one for a couple more years.
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eViL
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1/29/2009  12:20 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by eViL:

Funny how after all the years in the lottery, it took a strong playoff showing to give the Hawks the boost that they needed.

exactly how many championships have the Hawks won since the last time they made the playoffs? how many do u think they're gonna win as a result of the valuable playoff experience they gained through that experience? is making the playoffs our goal or is winning championships? teams have tanked & won championships the very next season... Boston & San Antonio are prime examples... i would rather follow that method & land ourselves a stud to build around than try to eek out meaningless playoff experience & be stuck w/mediocre prospects for the rest of my life.

San Antonio is not a blueprint. The Spurs are pure luck and timing. Sorry. Neither are the Celts. Championships can be won in many ways. The most consistent way to win a championship is by winning.
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islesfan
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1/29/2009  12:22 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Allanfan20:
people used the same old lame argument that those 2 kids would gain valuable playoff experience if we somehow managed to sneak into the playoffs that year.

You can call the arguement anything you want, but it doesn't mean you're right. I think it's equally as important to make the playoffs, and yes, the playoff experience is crucial.

it's my opinion, just like ur airing urs... who's to say who's right & wrong here... i'm just saying that's the direction i would go in... ur free to disagree.

Was just calling you out on calling the arguement lame, when it's in fact a very solid one. Maybe YOU don't agree, but it's my humble opinion that we need to get the winning atmosphere back. Might as well start sooner than later, particularly with a team that's ready to compete. IMO, it's also the best way to make NY an attractive place.

Would you guys just makeout already and get rid of the sexual tension between you?

No potential free agent is going to look back in the summer of 2010 and think "Hey, the Knicks really showed me something making the 2009 playoffs even though they were one and done. I think I'm going to sign with them because of that".
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TMS
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1/29/2009  12:26 AM
Posted by eViL:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by eViL:

Funny how after all the years in the lottery, it took a strong playoff showing to give the Hawks the boost that they needed.

exactly how many championships have the Hawks won since the last time they made the playoffs? how many do u think they're gonna win as a result of the valuable playoff experience they gained through that experience? is making the playoffs our goal or is winning championships? teams have tanked & won championships the very next season... Boston & San Antonio are prime examples... i would rather follow that method & land ourselves a stud to build around than try to eek out meaningless playoff experience & be stuck w/mediocre prospects for the rest of my life.

San Antonio is not a blueprint. The Spurs are pure luck and timing. Sorry. Neither are the Celts. Championships can be won in many ways. The most consistent way to win a championship is by winning.

we ain't winning no championships w/1 max player, Lee, Nate, Gallo & Chandler sorry... we need another superstar.

Bulls had Jordan & Pippen
Rockets had Olajuwon & Drexler
Lakers had Shaq & Kobe
Spurs had Duncan & Robinson/Parker
Celtics had KG & Pierce

Knicks need that type of 1-2 superstar tandem to give themselves the best chance to win a championship.

[Edited by - TMS on 01-28-2009 9:37 PM]
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Knicksfan
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1/29/2009  12:48 AM
I voted lottery because as a rebuilding team we need to have the most good players at the shortest contracts. The draft gives you that and since we won't have a pick next season, this one is huge.

Most will say "playoffs" because of "patriotism". Oh, the point is to win the most games and you can't root for loses as a fan. Wow, congratulations. You won the fan award. Remember to pick the trophy at the lottery while the Knicks pick the lowest in it because they had another "run" for the playoffs come to the last month and missed on it. Once then we'll see how many are so "playoffs-now" when a team that had a similar record to ours right now gets the first overall pick.

Then the cycle will repeat itself. We will envy the team that gets Griffin, talk about how no free agent will sign with us when they can join him and keep praying every night three free agents come and sign with us in 2010.

The draft is the best shot we have at getting a star. Lebron and Bosh are still a dream, so they aren't in the equation yet.


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TMS
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1/29/2009  1:01 AM
Posted by Knicksfan:

I voted lottery because as a rebuilding team we need to have the most good players at the shortest contracts. The draft gives you that and since we won't have a pick next season, this one is huge.

agree w/u... i personally feel this year's draft is very deep... i don't see why everyone views it as a crappy pool of prospects... there's some real quality talent that can be had in the #7-#13 range... getting extra picks in that range could prove to be huge... u can also try & package extra picks w/our own to move up to the top 5 if there's a guy u absolutely must have, but personally i would be happy to just gain 2 extra picks via trade & use all 3 picks to gain depth for several years to come at minimal dollars, & then allocate the cap space to sign the bignames.

[Edited by - TMS on 01-28-2009 10:03 PM]
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sebstar
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1/29/2009  1:48 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by sebstar:

What do you want D'Antoni to do, take Nate, Chandler, and Lee out back and put a bullet in them to ensure a last place finish? Tell them to purposefully throw games?

I want them to win and make the playoffs, of course. For one this draft sucks, but most of all this seems like the natural progression for a franchise on the rise. This team has borderline playoff talent, this isnt a mirage.

But what is encouraging about these Knicks is the playoffs dont feel like the-end-all-be-all. Thats the way it felt with Isiah --- that he was just trying to put together a team that was good enough to compete for a slot. Clearly with the moves that Walsh has made, he has a eye on cap flexibility, attracting big time talent, and has an overall plan for the bigger picture.

It just so happens that the fill-in-talent that he has acquired and the young cats are ballin' right now. Well then I'm all for it. Let 'em win, who cares about a couple of slots in a wack ass draft. This is not a 25 win team.

Why is this even a question?

obviously the coach & players are not to be expected to purposely throw games... that is not what is meant when i say we need to tank... i'm saying if Walsh trades Lee & Nate now for picks & we free up cap space in 2010, then we will be better off, both w/a higher lottery pick this season as well as additional picks & flexibility... why is this such a difficult concept to grasp for some of u?

Because how the hell are we going to attract big name free agents if we have a bunch of kids running around still trying to learn the game? Plus 2009 is going to be a historically weak draft, you can bet that.

Our salvation is not in the draft anymore.



[Edited by - sebstar on 01-29-2009 01:51 AM]
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eViL
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1/29/2009  2:03 AM
The Bulls, with all the lottery picks they have, are behind us in the standings. Rose, Heinrich, Noah, Thomas, Deng, Gordon... Can someone explain this to me? Shouldn't they be champs by now?
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GallOfFame
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1/29/2009  2:08 AM
Posted by eViL:

The Bulls, with all the lottery picks they have, are behind us in the standings. Rose, Heinrich, Noah, Thomas, Deng, Gordon... Can someone explain this to me? Shouldn't they be champs by now?

Have they ever truly addressed their 4 or 5 spot? You can't handicap yourself when assembling a team and they have to an extent. Tell you what they've been to the playoffs more than we have since 04' and are only 1gm behind us at the moment.

[Edited by - GallOfFame on 01-29-2009 02:10 AM]
TMS
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1/29/2009  2:28 AM
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by sebstar:

What do you want D'Antoni to do, take Nate, Chandler, and Lee out back and put a bullet in them to ensure a last place finish? Tell them to purposefully throw games?

I want them to win and make the playoffs, of course. For one this draft sucks, but most of all this seems like the natural progression for a franchise on the rise. This team has borderline playoff talent, this isnt a mirage.

But what is encouraging about these Knicks is the playoffs dont feel like the-end-all-be-all. Thats the way it felt with Isiah --- that he was just trying to put together a team that was good enough to compete for a slot. Clearly with the moves that Walsh has made, he has a eye on cap flexibility, attracting big time talent, and has an overall plan for the bigger picture.

It just so happens that the fill-in-talent that he has acquired and the young cats are ballin' right now. Well then I'm all for it. Let 'em win, who cares about a couple of slots in a wack ass draft. This is not a 25 win team.

Why is this even a question?

obviously the coach & players are not to be expected to purposely throw games... that is not what is meant when i say we need to tank... i'm saying if Walsh trades Lee & Nate now for picks & we free up cap space in 2010, then we will be better off, both w/a higher lottery pick this season as well as additional picks & flexibility... why is this such a difficult concept to grasp for some of u?

Because how the hell are we going to attract big name free agents if we have a bunch of kids running around still trying to learn the game? Plus 2009 is going to be a historically weak draft, you can bet that.

Our salvation is not in the draft anymore.



[Edited by - sebstar on 01-29-2009 01:51 AM]

u can use those young kids in a trade if u want more experience... the point is u need a pair of superstar players to give urself the best chance to win a championship in my view... then u worry about how the rest of the roster will fit around those guys... the more young assets u accumulate, the more flexibility u have to make deals & free agent signings... that's been proven time & time again by successful basketball teams.
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TMS
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1/29/2009  2:29 AM
Posted by eViL:

The Bulls, with all the lottery picks they have, are behind us in the standings. Rose, Heinrich, Noah, Thomas, Deng, Gordon... Can someone explain this to me? Shouldn't they be champs by now?

i'm guessing they would have been better had they had the cap space to sign 2 superstar players to go along w/some of their young players.
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NumberTwoPencil
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1/29/2009  2:46 AM
As a Knicks fan: Playoffs.
For the sake of my children's children: Lottery.

I'd rather watch Griffin than Quentin Richardson or Jefferies. I'd like to see Teague challenge Chandler. I like Duhon (and I don't there's a better option for bkup PG) but I'd rather see Curry, or Lawson, or Jennings get a chance. And so on. Theoretically, you can't go wrong with more talent but, hey, it's the Knicks.






Paladin55
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1/29/2009  3:31 AM
Posted by TMS:

next year is when we should be targetting the playoffs IMO, not now... we gotta maximize the value of the pick we own this year cuz we won't have another one for a couple more years.

So, in a practical and concrete manner, just how does a coach, his players (all with competitive pride), go about "maximzing the value" of a draft pick, and NOT "target" the playoffs this year?

* The Knicks made trades with 2010 in mind that stripped them of their two leading scorers.

* They chose not to play Marbury in order to build a team in the MDA mold and because they knew he was not in their future plans, even though Marbury might have played well and helped them win more games.

* They have chosen not to buy out Marbury's contract, even though it might allow them to add another player to help the team.

Seemingly, they have made a number decisions which could have caused the team to lose more games than it has so far, yet they now find themselves in a fight for the playoffs.

Maybe the Knicks are just in a conference which allows a team with mediocre record to be competing for a playoff birth. Maybe both MDA and the Knicks players are simply better than some thought them to be. Maybe people have seriously underestimated the ability and competitive spirit Duhon, Nate, Lee, and others on the team. Whatever the case, midway through the season, the Knicks now find themselves in race for a playoff slot.

All we can do now is sit back and watch (and in the case of some Knicks fans, hope that we lose) but I don't think this team is going to stop playing hard any time soon, and if they manage to win a game during our upcoming "hell week" and hang tough in the other games, this team is going to be a lot more confident and win even more games.


[Edited by - Paladin55 on 01-29-2009 10:31 AM]
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Allanfan20
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1/29/2009  8:39 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by eViL:

The Bulls, with all the lottery picks they have, are behind us in the standings. Rose, Heinrich, Noah, Thomas, Deng, Gordon... Can someone explain this to me? Shouldn't they be champs by now?

i'm guessing they would have been better had they had the cap space to sign 2 superstar players to go along w/some of their young players.

Like when they killed us and signed Ben Wallace?

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Panos
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1/29/2009  8:45 AM
Posted by GallOfFame:
Posted by eViL:

The Bulls, with all the lottery picks they have, are behind us in the standings. Rose, Heinrich, Noah, Thomas, Deng, Gordon... Can someone explain this to me? Shouldn't they be champs by now?

Have they ever truly addressed their 4 or 5 spot? You can't handicap yourself when assembling a team and they have to an extent. Tell you what they've been to the playoffs more than we have since 04' and are only 1gm behind us at the moment.

[Edited by - GallOfFame on 01-29-2009 02:10 AM]

They've used 2 picks on the 4 or 5 spot, including a #2 overall.
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