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Based on this Article, IT did a good job as Knick's GM
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Solace
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1/2/2009  7:10 AM
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by CrushAlot:

If you want to let this guy know how you feel about this article you can leave a comment here:

http://sportsonmymind.com/2008/12/31/isiah%e2%80%99s-suicide-mission-revisiting-the-worst-roster-in-nba-history/

Try to refrain from using the word @ssclown when you refer to him.

They published my comment. See if you can guess which one it is.

Judging by time stamp and sarcasm, you must be Joe.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
AUTOADVERT
Solace
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1/2/2009  7:27 AM
In the probable case that my comment is removed, here's mine:
Ok, so I read through your article. Let's be fair here. Do you seriously think these are fair arguments? Every argument that you have for Isiah starts with the premise of the team that Layden left him. We all knew that Layden left Isiah in a tough spot. But, it is Isiah who took as long as he did and actually made it worse.

I laugh at the premise that Isiah won every trade. Most NBA fans and writers feel that he actually LOST every trade. What trade did he win? Almost every trade Isiah made was unnecessary and caused duplication. When this wasn't the case, he simply gave up too many assets to acquire the resource. During Isiah's tenure, the Knicks had the highest payroll in the NBA and worse records than the Layden teams every single year, including two 23 win seasons.

Even Isiah's draft, which his supporters continually praise him for, wasn't exceptional. I think he was decent at drafting... but it still has yet to be seen if the Knicks actually got any starters out of Isiah's drafting, since many feel that guys like Lee only start because the Knicks roster is so thin right now. I think Isiah did a good job with a late pick picking guys that were off the radar, but with higher picks, he was awful, picking such attrocities as Renaldo Balkman at #20.

Isiah is the man of the ever-changing plan. Every few months his plan would change and he'd make another crazy trade to contradict to previous one. Most GMs use trades to balance out the roster. Isiah used it to gather players that other teams didn't want. This is strange management, at best? The only plan that was guaranteed to fail was to spend like there's no tomorrow and continue to ignore the team's needs.

It seems like the main issue here is that you simply hate Layden, which is fine and justified -- but don't use Layden to justify Isiah's time. Anyone who had the amount of time at the helm that Isiah did would've seen that Layden's plan A wasn't working, so plan mega-A didn't really make a lot of sense. Isiah treated the roster like a game of NBA Live and that is why the Knicks were down for so long.

Anyway, in conclusion, I generally don't read your site because you have a very biased opinion, and your principle of leading us along requires leaps of faith, instead of agreement. Your arguments consist of "People say they don't like apples. Well, tables are made of wood. We all see the need for tables, don't we? Therefore, apples are much better than oranges." I try to follow along and nod my head in agreement, but being a man of logic, I can't see how you bridge the gap from point A to point B without actually addressing the points with anything of substance. Then again, maybe you should be a politician. Or maybe you are actually Isiah Thomas. Either way, congratulations on providing a haven for the closet Isiah lovers. :)
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Solace
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1/2/2009  9:52 AM
Nope. Deleted for trying to add some objectivity to the thread.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Bippity10
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1/2/2009  9:57 AM
Posted by Solace:

Nope. Deleted for trying to add some objectivity to the thread.

Deleted because you added objectivity or deleted because you insulted the author?
I just hope that people will like me
Solace
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1/2/2009  10:04 AM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by Solace:

Nope. Deleted for trying to add some objectivity to the thread.

Deleted because you added objectivity or deleted because you insulted the author?

I think they're one in the same. Other BBJ's post, I don't see any other anti-Isiah posts there, even though I know others here did post.

He really shouldn't be insulted. I challenged him to explain how his arguments had anything to do with the points he was trying to make. He obviously was unable.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Solace
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1/2/2009  10:24 AM
Actually now it shows as awaiting moderation again. Weird.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Bippity10
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1/2/2009  11:02 AM
Posted by Solace:

Actually now it shows as awaiting moderation again. Weird.

"Or maybe you are actually Isiah Thomas."

If you said that to me, I would ban you immediately
I just hope that people will like me
sebstar
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1/2/2009  11:03 AM
Posted by Solace:

Nope. Deleted for trying to add some objectivity to the thread.

what on earth are you talking about? Did you read the first five responses to the thread? You're too emotional about Isiah.

I thought the article was good, flawed but good. Give him credit for trying to defend what many consider to be the indefensible and make good points while he was at it: The pathetic roster he inherited can not be understated. Guys like Jerry West and Larry Bird havent left their rosters in much better shape despite the fact that they are more heralded. And the author was right in challenging the hypocrisy, myopia, and impatience of the NY culture. Man, the Knicks have some pretty good young talent, as much as people seem to not want to admit around here.

But Zeke made fatal flaws that demanded his firing. So here we are.
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
Solace
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1/2/2009  11:06 AM
Posted by sebstar:
Posted by Solace:

Nope. Deleted for trying to add some objectivity to the thread.

what on earth are you talking about? Did you read the first five responses to the thread? You're too emotional about Isiah.

I thought the article was good, flawed but good. Give him credit for trying to defend what many consider to be the indefensible and make good points while he was at it: The pathetic roster he inherited can not be understated. Guys like Jerry West and Larry Bird havent left their rosters in much better shape despite the fact that they are more heralded. And the author was right in challenging the hypocrisy, myopia, and impatience of the NY culture. Man, the Knicks have some pretty good young talent, as much as people seem to not want to admit around here.

But Zeke made fatal flaws that demanded his firing. So here we are.

Blaming Isiah's failures on Layden isn't justification for Isiah's failures. We have some good young role players. I give credit for that. That's why he gets decent in that mark. His trades were awful. How can you like a single one of Isiah's trades?

No, he was flat out wrong. The reason why it's indefensible is because it's indefensible (in a Steph-like tone). Isiah was flat out horrible and he deserves no defense. Isiah didn't have just a few missteps, his entire tenture here was a misstep.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
CrushAlot
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1/2/2009  12:23 PM
This guy censors the comments section on his blog. I disagreed with his article but kept my response appropriate. It was deleted.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
BasketballJones
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1/2/2009  1:39 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by BasketballJones:
Posted by CrushAlot:

If you want to let this guy know how you feel about this article you can leave a comment here:

http://sportsonmymind.com/2008/12/31/isiah%e2%80%99s-suicide-mission-revisiting-the-worst-roster-in-nba-history/

Try to refrain from using the word @ssclown when you refer to him.

They published my comment. See if you can guess which one it is.

Judging by time stamp and sarcasm, you must be Joe.

What tipped you off? The reference to Cap'n Zeke?
https:// It's not so hard.
BasketballJones
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1/2/2009  1:41 PM
Posted by CrushAlot:

This guy censors the comments section on his blog. I disagreed with his article but kept my response appropriate. It was deleted.

You have to start off by telling him how brilliant he is. Then, a couple of paragraphs down, you can lower the boom, because he obviously isn't reading the whole post.
https:// It's not so hard.
Bonn1997
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1/2/2009  7:00 PM
Posted by Solace:

Terrible article. Layden's mistakes do not excuse Isiah's. Most of it is targetted at the fact that Isiah inherited an veteran roster. Yes, the author of that article is an outright idiot. The few times I've seen his material, it's been awful and painfully biased.

Even Isiah's drafting was average. He gets a lot of credit from a loud minority, yet most of this board agrees that he didn't draft any players that are unquestionable starter quality during his tenure here.

[Edited by - Solace on Jan 01 2009 7:35 PM]
Well let's grade each of Isiah's draft picks.

#44 Trevor Ariza: B+ Merely getting a player who can meaningfully contribute is a good achievement with a mid 2nd round pick. The terrible Ariza trade to bring in Francis contributes to the F I'd give Isiah for trading but is separate from his drafting abilities.

#8 Channing Frye: D- I know, it's tempting to give this pick an F. However, he was a 6'11" big man who won multiple rookie of the month awards and finished top 4 or 5 in Rookie of the Year voting. Many were saying they wouldn't trade him for KG and he was playing great until he messed up his knee. Was that injury just a coincidence? I don't know but it coincided perfectly with a big downturn in his performance. The draft pick ended up working out terribly and gets a D-, but it's not on the Fred Weiss level IMO.

#21 Nate Robinson: B Most people would at least agree that he can be a very good sixth man, which is a solid late 1st round pick.

#30 David Lee: A It's hard to ask for more from the 30th pick.

#20 Renaldo Balkman: C- He does deserve a place in this league, maybe as a 9th or 10th man, but this was a below average pick at #20.

#29 Mardy Collins: C- See Balkman explanation.

#23 Wilson Chandler: B+ Very solid player for a late first round pick.

It looks like his average draft pick is about a B-. (I got an 80 when I converted all the letter grades to numbers and averaged them.) That's not bad, but I'll admit it's a little lower than what I thought it was going to come out to before I started this reply.
Solace
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1/2/2009  7:02 PM
I disagree, Bonn.

Frye is an F. He should've gone late first round, at the earliest. Nate Robinson is a C+. He's still 5'9", which hinders him. Balkman is an F; he was taken 30 slots too high, just as some of us said. That alone was foolish and he's going to get criticized for such a stupid decision, when he could've gotten the player way later. Collins is probably an F, since I think he'll be out of the league within a few years. For Chandler, it's too early to give him a B+. Right now I'd say B-, and we'll how he turns out.

Again, though, Isiah's strategy was predictable. For most of his picks, he simply looked at players, said which guy is the most athletic and drafted. There's a reason why a fair amount of Isiah's picks look good early, then once teams figure them out, they're exposed for being just one dimensional athletes.

But, overall, I've given Isiah credit for being solid in the draft. I think he's been decent. Not a stud, but decent. I think most GMs with that many picks picked at least a few solid role players or better. From recent posts, most of the board seems pretty convinced that none of Isiah's picks are starters on a good team. If you buy into that, then you can't say Isiah's an excellent drafter, especially with how bad he botched Frye, which is really the pick that counted.

[Edited by - Solace on Jan 02 2009 7:13 PM]
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
CrushAlot
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1/2/2009  11:59 PM
He blew the Frye draft and the Balkman draft. Balkman was a huge mistake and it was Isiah's ego and shock and awe personality that caused him to make the pick. There is even a possibility that he blew this years pick as he was reported to have been sent to scout Gallo for Walsh. The guy was a complete disaster. He destroyed the KNicks in the present with his horrible moves without regard to character, cap space, the future, player roles, on and off the court chemistry. He destroyed them for the future with his horrible disregard for the salary cap in his acquisitions, by trading away picks, and by ignoring the value of expiring contracts and buying them out. He made the franchise a laughingstock with his unprofessionalism. The guy was convicted of sexual harrassment, was taped making racial statements, called out NY fans and said that they were the reason the team was losing, got into arguments with fans who had courtside seats, he treated people horribly ( Don Chaney, Lenny Wilkins, D. Nichols etc., had no vision or plan for the team instead employing the flavor of the month philosophy, threw his signature players under the bus in an attempt to save his skin, there is lots more. Someone posted on another thread that Walsh is not a 'face' GM. Isiah was. It was all about him and that is why he could never let things unfold and develop. He had to keep changing things. He has a tragically flawed ego and probably could have a clinical diagnosis. Unfortunately he worked for someone who succumbed to his charisma and charm for 5+ years. During that time Knick fans really got to see how significant his character flaws were and how maladjusted his ego is. Calling him a narcasisst is an understatement. I have posted on here that he fits the profile of a sociopath. His most recent episode with his daughter after his suicide attempt certainly hints that this might be accurate.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
4949
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1/3/2009  8:59 AM
Posted by TheGame:
Posted by 4949:

Auh Game? I tried to make the same argument in the beginning about what he inherited. But if you look below, it's a little hard to argue with it, especially since isiah had five years to make it right. And if you remember, isiah got rid of Layden's guys pretty fast, replacing them with his own: Curry, Q, Jeffries, Jerome, Marbury, etc.

Layden: Just over four years: 175 - 181 (six games under .500_

isiah: Five seasons: 151 - 259 (108 games under .500)

And to make it worse, he had to go and get the Knicks sued.

He left Walsh with a big mess and look what Walsh went out and did in less then a few months into the brand new season? Salary cap.

Simply put, isiah was just plain stupid.

I was not defending the article. I totally agree that IT was a bad GM. I just thought the article made some interesting (albeit flawed) points and wanted to get other posters view on it.

Yeah, I know. I was just adding onto it.
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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1/3/2009  9:00 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:

I think Isiah was above average at drafting. He made some mistakes (especially Frye) but on the whole I think he batted for a higher than average percentage. He was one of the worst traders and free agent signers in the history of the game, though.

I have to agree with this.
I'll never trust this' team again.
Bonn1997
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1/3/2009  1:34 PM
Posted by 4949:
Posted by Bonn1997:

I think Isiah was above average at drafting. He made some mistakes (especially Frye) but on the whole I think he batted for a higher than average percentage. He was one of the worst traders and free agent signers in the history of the game, though.

I have to agree with this.
When we stick to basketball, we get along much better!
sebstar
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1/3/2009  2:26 PM
Balkman wasnt that big of a mistake and Nate Robinson is an A pick for sure...picks 20 or above are always a crapshoot. We should know, because our '90s teams always picked in those slots and we got nothing for years.

BTW, whats Marcus Williams up to these days?
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
Bonn1997
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1/3/2009  3:01 PM
Posted by sebstar:

Balkman wasnt that big of a mistake and Nate Robinson is an A pick for sure...picks 20 or above are always a crapshoot. We should know, because our '90s teams always picked in those slots and we got nothing for years.

BTW, whats Marcus Williams up to these days?

I agree and I think Solace is being a bit harsh in his grades, but I guess he and I just have different expectations for draft picks.
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Based on this Article, IT did a good job as Knick's GM
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