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LA Times calls us a gimmick team
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franco12
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12/19/2008  8:56 AM
Posted by Nalod:

Didn't mike winning 6 rings make mike into mike?

Its not like Jordan was winning bling before or with another team.

Shaq was in his prime, but was a liability and at games end with foul shooting problems, and was not a go to guy.

And Kobe was still seen as an immature kid. IT wasn't like Kobe was a champion type player before. Again, Jax made him.

I think Jax does not get his due because we see his players as champs, but these guys were not winners before.

Riles walked onto a team that was already in place. Magic was a NCAA champ, Worthy was a star in the making and also an NCAA champ team, and Kareem was mvp already! Jordan was a scoring machine who could not trust anyone and pippen was GOOD, but not great. He came from a small program out of college.

Jordan and Kobe not winners? Maybe, but they were the best individual talents in the league. When Jordan ruled, who was the second best player in the league?

I'd like to see Phil take Crawford and Zach and turn them into winners.

I don't think anyone is saying Jackson isn't a good coach. But how did he do against Rivers & the celtics last year? I kinda tend to feel he got outcoached.
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Bippity10
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12/19/2008  9:10 AM
Doesn't every champion tend to have the best player in the league? Outside of Detroit recently are there any recent champs without Top 50 players on them? I know the guy had Jordan and Shaq that is a definite advantage but you still have to win. If you win a million rings you are a great coach. Yes, you can argue that maybe he's not the greatest coach of all time, but you really can't take anything away from what he's done. Winning is winning.
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franco12
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12/19/2008  9:53 AM
Posted by Bippity10:

Doesn't every champion tend to have the best player in the league? Outside of Detroit recently are there any recent champs without Top 50 players on them? I know the guy had Jordan and Shaq that is a definite advantage but you still have to win. If you win a million rings you are a great coach. Yes, you can argue that maybe he's not the greatest coach of all time, but you really can't take anything away from what he's done. Winning is winning.

if phil jackson had been our coach this season iinstead of mda, who would have a better record? and, does that mean one coach is better than the other? sure, there is style of play fitting roster, but great coaches adapt to their personel, or they LB themselves out of a job.
K22
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12/19/2008  10:09 AM
To be fair - Phil Jackson came back to the Lakers and got them back over .500 after their worst season in decades and it was basically just Kobe, Odom and Caron Butler. This was the year they got Bynum in the draft, IIRC.

[Edited by - K22 on 2008-12-19 10:10 AM]
-- the preceding post was brought to you by the letter K and the number 22.
Bippity10
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12/19/2008  10:10 AM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by Bippity10:

Doesn't every champion tend to have the best player in the league? Outside of Detroit recently are there any recent champs without Top 50 players on them? I know the guy had Jordan and Shaq that is a definite advantage but you still have to win. If you win a million rings you are a great coach. Yes, you can argue that maybe he's not the greatest coach of all time, but you really can't take anything away from what he's done. Winning is winning.

if phil jackson had been our coach this season iinstead of mda, who would have a better record? and, does that mean one coach is better than the other? sure, there is style of play fitting roster, but great coaches adapt to their personel, or they LB themselves out of a job.


I don't understand the point you are trying to make?
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Bippity10
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12/19/2008  10:15 AM
All good/great coaches are the same. they go into a new situation. Most try to make the most of it(LB is a different story, his MO is to tear down immediately). They use the first year to evaluate their players. They evaluate who will fit into the style of play that they want to implement. They then get rid of all the players that they don't think will fit and then bring in those players that will fit in their system. It is very rare that a coach reinventst themselves(like Riley did). Not because they can't because they don't want to. Once a coach has a philosophy they stick with it because that's the system they feel will eventually win them a championship. Taht's why they developed that philosophy.

When would you change your philosophy? If you are a running coach and then go to a team that has an in his prime Shaq. In that scenario you would develop a post oriented offense. But anything short of Shaq you aren't going to change your philosphy. You are going to change your team.
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Nalod
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12/19/2008  10:30 AM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by franco12:
Posted by Bippity10:

Doesn't every champion tend to have the best player in the league? Outside of Detroit recently are there any recent champs without Top 50 players on them? I know the guy had Jordan and Shaq that is a definite advantage but you still have to win. If you win a million rings you are a great coach. Yes, you can argue that maybe he's not the greatest coach of all time, but you really can't take anything away from what he's done. Winning is winning.

if phil jackson had been our coach this season iinstead of mda, who would have a better record? and, does that mean one coach is better than the other? sure, there is style of play fitting roster, but great coaches adapt to their personel, or they LB themselves out of a job.


I don't understand the point you are trying to make?
'

I think MDA real strenght with this group is that he has gained their trust by benching the malcontents and those that don't put the effort. Isiahs team had plenty of talent but no chemistry or trust in the coach or each other.

The "gimmick" works because we are playing our athletic guys and letting them run.

I think Phil and the triangle would not work so quickly with this group as the triangle is a bit complicated and you have to believe. Kind of like Larry, phil wants it done a certain way and there is no compromise. Even if you pile up the losses. MDA ball is cool but not sustainable without all the proper pieces.

MDA is a good fit for this group, but its "this" group because of the coach.

Regarding Phils legacy, the guy won 2 rings and is a big follower of Red Holzman and believes in defense. He won as head coach of the CBA Albany Patroons.

I think what gets lost on some are not that Jordan was great, which he was, but how he coached Michael that helped him become legend. Same with Kobe. Any coincidence these guys basically have had the same coach during the most important formative years as a pro? ANd achieved HOF like success both individually and as teams.

Took guys like Cartwright, Longley, Purdue, Horace grant, Rick freakin Fox, Harper, Kerr, etc and molded them into a unit behind pippen and Jordan, or Kobe/shaq?

What were all those guys career's before? Kobe many times was almost traded as he was uncoachable, even by Jax! Jax wrote a book about it!

While Kobe should get the most credit for his maturity, not many coaches would suck up the ego and make it work with a player to move forward as he has done with Kobe. They both get credit.

Auerbach is seen as great but naturally its assumed with that roster how can you go wrong. But it was the roster that won championships that get remembered.

Wilt only won two rings and was seen as the best player of his generation but seen as a dissapointment for many many years.


markvmc
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12/19/2008  10:37 AM
Posted by Nalod:


Shaq was in his prime, but was a liability and at games end with foul shooting problems, and was not a go to guy.


Shq in his prime a liability!!!!! Now THAT'S funny.

Bippity10
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12/19/2008  10:43 AM
Riley couldn't win a title without Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Magic Johnson, Dwayne Wade and Shaq. Does this mean, he isn't so great as well?
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Vmart
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12/19/2008  12:38 PM
Posted by Nalod:

Didn't mike winning 6 rings make mike into mike?

Its not like Jordan was winning bling before or with another team.

Shaq was in his prime, but was a liability and at games end with foul shooting problems, and was not a go to guy.

And Kobe was still seen as an immature kid. IT wasn't like Kobe was a champion type player before. Again, Jax made him.

I think Jax does not get his due because we see his players as champs, but these guys were not winners before.

Riles walked onto a team that was already in place. Magic was a NCAA champ, Worthy was a star in the making and also an NCAA champ team, and Kareem was mvp already! Jordan was a scoring machine who could not trust anyone and pippen was GOOD, but not great. He came from a small program out of college.

So the point is you must have the best players to win a championship. No matter what system it is.

markvmc
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12/19/2008  12:41 PM
Like the Pistons did. Oh, wait...
ramtour420
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12/19/2008  12:47 PM
Ok, lets just say that MDA's coaching is better than Jax's and thats why Jax went into the whole"its a gimmick" mode? can we leave it at that? And by better i only mean he gets more out of his players.
Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
ramtour420
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12/19/2008  1:02 PM
Posted by ramtour420:

Ok, lets just say that MDA's coaching is better than Jax's and thats why Jax went into the whole"its a gimmick" mode? can we leave it at that? And by better i only mean he gets more out of his players.

I am an idiot, i misunderstood this whole thing. Jax never called us that, my bad

Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
holfresh
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12/19/2008  1:39 PM
I don't understand how you can knock a guy with not one or two, but nine rings and tell us about the virtues of a guy that doesn't have any...



Bippity10
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12/19/2008  1:48 PM
Posted by holfresh:

I don't understand how you can knock a guy with not one or two, but nine rings and tell us about the virtues of a guy that doesn't have any...





Its regoddamndiculous
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nixluva
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12/19/2008  2:16 PM
JAX wouldn't be as successful with the Knicks, cuz his system does require a good passing big and at least one or two versatile scoring, slashing studs a la Jordan or Kobe or at least an Odom or Pippen type. JAX could also win with similar guys on the next tier down, but the championship level seems to require the top tier as one would expect.

MDA can work his system with less talent and no bigs. His only requirement is a PG who can set it up and set the pace. JAX may be able to change but it seems he's set on his style like MDA. JAX teams always seem to have similar components to make the triangle work and that just so happens to be some of the more difficult types of players to find.

MDA has been underrated IMO. Mainly due to the "gimmick" aspect of how people view his offense. It's a shame, but I think things will change if he succeeds in NY. Walsh has to get MDA the missing pieces, so he can really do his thing.
Vmart
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12/19/2008  2:34 PM
Posted by nixluva:

JAX wouldn't be as successful with the Knicks, cuz his system does require a good passing big and at least one or two versatile scoring, slashing studs a la Jordan or Kobe or at least an Odom or Pippen type. JAX could also win with similar guys on the next tier down, but the championship level seems to require the top tier as one would expect.

MDA can work his system with less talent and no bigs. His only requirement is a PG who can set it up and set the pace. JAX may be able to change but it seems he's set on his style like MDA. JAX teams always seem to have similar components to make the triangle work and that just so happens to be some of the more difficult types of players to find.

MDA has been underrated IMO. Mainly due to the "gimmick" aspect of how people view his offense. It's a shame, but I think things will change if he succeeds in NY. Walsh has to get MDA the missing pieces, so he can really do his thing.

Missing pieces being LeBron and Bosh. Now you are talking championship team.

ramtour420
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12/19/2008  2:45 PM
Posted by nixluva:

JAX wouldn't be as successful with the Knicks, cuz his system does require a good passing big and at least one or two versatile scoring, slashing studs a la Jordan or Kobe or at least an Odom or Pippen type. JAX could also win with similar guys on the next tier down, but the championship level seems to require the top tier as one would expect.

MDA can work his system with less talent and no bigs. His only requirement is a PG who can set it up and set the pace. JAX may be able to change but it seems he's set on his style like MDA. JAX teams always seem to have similar components to make the triangle work and that just so happens to be some of the more difficult types of players to find.

MDA has been underrated IMO. Mainly due to the "gimmick" aspect of how people view his offense. It's a shame, but I think things will change if he succeeds in NY. Walsh has to get MDA the missing pieces, so he can really do his thing.

Hehe Jax would rather flush his rings down the toilet than take a chance with a team like the knicks, His zenniness needs not to prove anything to any1, he does have 9 proofs already!!!!

Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
ramtour420
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12/19/2008  2:46 PM
Posted by ramtour420:
Posted by nixluva:

JAX wouldn't be as successful with the Knicks, cuz his system does require a good passing big and at least one or two versatile scoring, slashing studs a la Jordan or Kobe or at least an Odom or Pippen type. JAX could also win with similar guys on the next tier down, but the championship level seems to require the top tier as one would expect.

MDA can work his system with less talent and no bigs. His only requirement is a PG who can set it up and set the pace. JAX may be able to change but it seems he's set on his style like MDA. JAX teams always seem to have similar components to make the triangle work and that just so happens to be some of the more difficult types of players to find.

MDA has been underrated IMO. Mainly due to the "gimmick" aspect of how people view his offense. It's a shame, but I think things will change if he succeeds in NY. Walsh has to get MDA the missing pieces, so he can really do his thing.

Hehe Jax would rather flush his rings down the toilet than take a chance with a team like the knicks, His zenniness needs not to prove anything to any1, he does have 9 proofs already!!!!
or is it 11 proofs

Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
holfresh
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12/19/2008  3:41 PM
Posted by nixluva:

JAX wouldn't be as successful with the Knicks, cuz his system does require a good passing big and at least one or two versatile scoring, slashing studs a la Jordan or Kobe or at least an Odom or Pippen type. JAX could also win with similar guys on the next tier down, but the championship level seems to require the top tier as one would expect.

MDA can work his system with less talent and no bigs. His only requirement is a PG who can set it up and set the pace. JAX may be able to change but it seems he's set on his style like MDA. JAX teams always seem to have similar components to make the triangle work and that just so happens to be some of the more difficult types of players to find.

MDA has been underrated IMO. Mainly due to the "gimmick" aspect of how people view his offense. It's a shame, but I think things will change if he succeeds in NY. Walsh has to get MDA the missing pieces, so he can really do his thing.

Do you think that MDA would have been as successful with the Bulls and the Lakers as JAX has been given their style of coaching???..

LA Times calls us a gimmick team

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