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Semi OT - Maybe Craw really was horrible
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Bippity10
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12/9/2008  10:32 AM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Bippity10:

I actually still like Jamal. There is room for every type of player in the NBA. The problem is that if you use jamal as a focal point of your team and do not surround him with great players that can minimize his faults than he can hurt you. To me, as much as I like the guy, he is still a role player to me. 15 years ago when defense was a must, his role would have been that of a high scoring role player off the bench.

Am I wrong in saying like a Dennis Johnson type of a role?

What Blueseats said. DJ was more of a starter and did everything well. Yes, a Vinny Johnson type role is accurate. Come in, get your points, put the pressure on the defense and play as long as you are hot. As soon as you go cold, the rest of your weaknesses start to show so you go to the bench. I'm pretty sure that's the way Jamal would have been treated 15-20 years ago. He probably would have benefitted from it too. IF he really wanted to be on the floor for extended minutes he would have been forced to learn D. In this age where we are fascinated by anyone with a crossover dribble Craw was never forced to learn. Everyone talked about his potential but nobody taught him how to get th emost out of ALL OF IT. Now he's in GState where he will once again be placed in a losing situation where no one plays defense. He will be around vets and young guys that will teach him nothing and he will continue to do the same things that he has up until this point.
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MS
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12/9/2008  10:33 AM
This is a dumb argument. We all know that crawford is terrible and produces losses. The difference here is Golden State is bringing in one guy and subtracting one guy that wasn't playing.

We took away two 35 minute a night guys and our primary post option and had to play games using Roberson and Rose because we were shorthanded.

Crawford does things you don't see in the box score like rushing shots that lead to fast break points or destroying the shot clock. I can't believe anyone is defending this guy. Worst stretch in Knicks history started when he was added as a free agent, and Golden State is going to reap the benefits of his talents.

Again we need to bring up the fact that Jamal is solid in half the games he plays and then terrible in the other half, and terrible means 35% shooting. All while playing no defense, this can't be defended look at his splits.
Bippity10
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12/9/2008  10:35 AM
Posted by MS:

This is a dumb argument. We all know that crawford is terrible and produces losses. The difference here is Golden State is bringing in one guy and subtracting one guy that wasn't playing.

We took away two 35 minute a night guys and our primary post option and had to play games using Roberson and Rose because we were shorthanded.

Crawford does things you don't see in the box score like rushing shots that lead to fast break points or destroying the shot clock. I can't believe anyone is defending this guy. Worst stretch in Knicks history started when he was added as a free agent, and Golden State is going to reap the benefits of his talents.

Again we need to bring up the fact that Jamal is solid in half the games he plays and then terrible in the other half, and terrible means 35% shooting. All while playing no defense, this can't be defended look at his splits.

I'm shocked that you would say such things.
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BlueSeats
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12/9/2008  10:44 AM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Bippity10:

I actually still like Jamal. There is room for every type of player in the NBA. The problem is that if you use jamal as a focal point of your team and do not surround him with great players that can minimize his faults than he can hurt you. To me, as much as I like the guy, he is still a role player to me. 15 years ago when defense was a must, his role would have been that of a high scoring role player off the bench.

Am I wrong in saying like a Dennis Johnson type of a role?

I think you mean Vinnie Johnson.

DJ was a tough as nails defender, with solid shot selection, leadership and orchestaration skills.

Ah yes, I did, thanks Blue. I was thinking of "The Microwave"

The only difference is that Vinnie was great off the bench because he could come in hot while Jamal needs time to warm up and get in the flow.

I don't know if anyone else remembers this, but the season Isiah took over as coach they showed training camp clips of him with the players to show how cool he was and how, after Larry, the players were going to relate to him and love him.

Anyway, one of the things he was saying when the guys were shooting around was "Do you have a button? Can you just press a button and "turn it on?" I got a button, do you have a button?"

It was for everyone, but I think it was primarily directed at Jamal, because that's how Vinnie was. You could put him in at anytime and he'd press the button and heat up fast (thus, the name "the microwave") and that's not something Jamal ever demonstrated he could do. He languished off the bench, and it often took him till the third or fourth quarter to get hot, or he might slump for games or weeks at a time.

I think a guy like Ben Gordon is pretty close to what Vinnie was.


[Edited by - blueseats on 12-09-2008 10:47 AM]
Bippity10
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12/9/2008  10:55 AM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Bippity10:

I actually still like Jamal. There is room for every type of player in the NBA. The problem is that if you use jamal as a focal point of your team and do not surround him with great players that can minimize his faults than he can hurt you. To me, as much as I like the guy, he is still a role player to me. 15 years ago when defense was a must, his role would have been that of a high scoring role player off the bench.

Am I wrong in saying like a Dennis Johnson type of a role?

I think you mean Vinnie Johnson.

DJ was a tough as nails defender, with solid shot selection, leadership and orchestaration skills.

Ah yes, I did, thanks Blue. I was thinking of "The Microwave"

The only difference is that Vinnie was great off the bench because he could come in hot while Jamal needs time to warm up and get in the flow.

I don't know if anyone else remembers this, but the season Isiah took over as coach they showed training camp clips of him with the players to show how cool he was and how, after Larry, the players were going to relate to him and love him.

Anyway, one of the things he was saying when the guys were shooting around was "Do you have a button? Can you just press a button and "turn it on?" I got a button, do you have a button?"

It was for everyone, but I think it was primarily directed at Jamal, because that's how Vinnie was. You could put him in at anytime and he'd press the button and heat up fast (thus, the name "the microwave") and that's not something Jamal ever demonstrated he could do. He languished off the bench, and it often took him till the third or fourth quarter to get hot, or he might slump for games or weeks at a time.

I think a guy like Ben Gordon is pretty close to what Vinnie was.


[Edited by - blueseats on 12-09-2008 10:47 AM]

Jamal is definitely not Vinny, but that is the role I think he would have been best suited for if he was willing to take it on. I do remember him complaining about not being able to get into the flow of the game when he came off the bench a few years ago.
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MS
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12/9/2008  11:12 AM
Just for the record:

Jamal
2007-2008 80 games played
Shot under 38% 26 times
Shot under 30% 12 times

2007-2008 59 games played
Shot under 38% 29 times
Shot under 30% 16 times

All while playing zero defense and not scoring in the flow of the game, you can't defend those stats

2007-2008 79 games played
Shot under 38% 35 times
Shot under 30% 24 times
Solace
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12/9/2008  12:25 PM
We all knew that Craw had a lot of faults and ultimately his style was contributing more to losses than wins here in NY. It's not surprising that for a team like GS, that they would have a similar effect. Craw is what he is... a player who gets inflated numbers when he starts, but not a player who is a centerpiece on a winning team. Do I think Jamal could help a winning team in the sixth or seventh man role, though? Yes, I do.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
Bippity10
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12/9/2008  1:01 PM
Posted by MS:

Just for the record:

Jamal
2007-2008 80 games played
Shot under 38% 26 times
Shot under 30% 12 times

2007-2008 59 games played
Shot under 38% 29 times
Shot under 30% 16 times

All while playing zero defense and not scoring in the flow of the game, you can't defend those stats

2007-2008 79 games played
Shot under 38% 35 times
Shot under 30% 24 times

Geez, the man played 218 games in the same season. If sure his shooting percentage would have been higher if he hadn't played in so many games
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BigC
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12/9/2008  1:11 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

The Warriors are allowing 125.3 POINTS PER GAME in the seven games Crawford has started for them.

They were allowing 104.3ppg before Crawford showed up. Is Crawford really making them 21ppg worse on defense? Wow. I love the guy, but wow.


L @ Washington 124-100
L @ Boston 119-111
L @ Cleveland 112-97
L @ New York 138-123
L vs Miami 130-129
L @ Houston 131-112
L @ San Antonio 123-88
Have you watch any of those games? Crawford is playing with a bunch of high school kids and the coach never calls a timeout. Also the lineup has been changed almost every game. Also look at the teams you are talking about.

Watch the games yourself before you make an assessment.
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arkrud
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12/9/2008  1:31 PM
Posted by BigC:
Posted by crzymdups:

The Warriors are allowing 125.3 POINTS PER GAME in the seven games Crawford has started for them.

They were allowing 104.3ppg before Crawford showed up. Is Crawford really making them 21ppg worse on defense? Wow. I love the guy, but wow.


L @ Washington 124-100
L @ Boston 119-111
L @ Cleveland 112-97
L @ New York 138-123
L vs Miami 130-129
L @ Houston 131-112
L @ San Antonio 123-88
Have you watch any of those games? Crawford is playing with a bunch of high school kids and the coach never calls a timeout. Also the lineup has been changed almost every game. Also look at the teams you are talking about.

Watch the games yourself before you make an assessment.

OK... Team is bad but Craf is good...
Well... Can you explain why he always ends up in the junkjard not with the good teams?
Because junk goes to junk. Good NBA bbal club has no need in such players.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
Bippity10
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12/9/2008  1:57 PM
Not a defense of Craw but I guess I don't get it. The team was a mess before he got there. NOw he's there and we blame him for the fact that they are still a mess?
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Cosmic
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12/9/2008  2:06 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Geez, the man played 218 games in the same season. If sure his shooting percentage would have been higher if he hadn't played in so many games

haha

Crawful is as a Crawful does.

Ever notice when you call someone out for being stupid - you end up ****ing up your own post?

I'm going to assume those are... 0708, 0607, 0506 stats.

The fact is they still prove something anyone with half a brain and a desire NOT to get attached to a basketball player knows: Crawful is ... Awful and it's a good thing he's someone else's problem.

I'm still laughing at Golden State for adding Crawful...to well... a team full of Crawfuls.

What an amazing deal by Walsh. Whether or not Harrington, another "high potential" player who didn't realize his full potential because he's not all that smart is a part of our future he's a upgrade over Crawful and expires before him.

What a WIN!
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Cosmic
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12/9/2008  2:08 PM
Posted by BigC:
Posted by crzymdups:

The Warriors are allowing 125.3 POINTS PER GAME in the seven games Crawford has started for them.

They were allowing 104.3ppg before Crawford showed up. Is Crawford really making them 21ppg worse on defense? Wow. I love the guy, but wow.


L @ Washington 124-100
L @ Boston 119-111
L @ Cleveland 112-97
L @ New York 138-123
L vs Miami 130-129
L @ Houston 131-112
L @ San Antonio 123-88
Have you watch any of those games? Crawford is playing with a bunch of high school kids and the coach never calls a timeout. Also the lineup has been changed almost every game. Also look at the teams you are talking about.

Watch the games yourself before you make an assessment.

Oh lord, come'on Big C, so now it's the coach's fault and the roster's fault that Crawful is a bum?

Lawds help you my friend. Step into the light...Crawful always was a bum and thank Walsh he's no longer our problem!!!!
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BigC
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12/9/2008  2:43 PM
Posted by arkrud:
Posted by BigC:
Posted by crzymdups:

The Warriors are allowing 125.3 POINTS PER GAME in the seven games Crawford has started for them.

They were allowing 104.3ppg before Crawford showed up. Is Crawford really making them 21ppg worse on defense? Wow. I love the guy, but wow.


L @ Washington 124-100
L @ Boston 119-111
L @ Cleveland 112-97
L @ New York 138-123
L vs Miami 130-129
L @ Houston 131-112
L @ San Antonio 123-88
Have you watch any of those games? Crawford is playing with a bunch of high school kids and the coach never calls a timeout. Also the lineup has been changed almost every game. Also look at the teams you are talking about.

Watch the games yourself before you make an assessment.

OK... Team is bad but Craf is good...
Well... Can you explain why he always ends up in the junkjard not with the good teams?
Because junk goes to junk. Good NBA bbal club has no need in such players.


So is Elton Brand a bad player? Do you really think good teams like the Lakers or Cavs would not have picked up Crawford last offseason if he was available ? Also do you see any of the Knicks current players turning that GS team around?

Good basketball teams like the Dallas Mavs still picked up Jason Terry. Good basketball teams still picked up Alston. Like the Heat and the Rockets.





[Edited by - BigC on 12-09-2008 2:50 PM]
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Bonn1997
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12/9/2008  6:14 PM
Posted by BigC:
Posted by crzymdups:

The Warriors are allowing 125.3 POINTS PER GAME in the seven games Crawford has started for them.

They were allowing 104.3ppg before Crawford showed up. Is Crawford really making them 21ppg worse on defense? Wow. I love the guy, but wow.


L @ Washington 124-100
L @ Boston 119-111
L @ Cleveland 112-97
L @ New York 138-123
L vs Miami 130-129
L @ Houston 131-112
L @ San Antonio 123-88
Have you watch any of those games? Crawford is playing with a bunch of high school kids and the coach never calls a timeout. Also the lineup has been changed almost every game. Also look at the teams you are talking about.

Watch the games yourself before you make an assessment.

Well those "high school kids" were doing a lot better before Crawford showed up
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12/9/2008  6:42 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by MS:

This is a dumb argument. We all know that crawford is terrible and produces losses. The difference here is Golden State is bringing in one guy and subtracting one guy that wasn't playing.

We took away two 35 minute a night guys and our primary post option and had to play games using Roberson and Rose because we were shorthanded.

Crawford does things you don't see in the box score like rushing shots that lead to fast break points or destroying the shot clock. I can't believe anyone is defending this guy. Worst stretch in Knicks history started when he was added as a free agent, and Golden State is going to reap the benefits of his talents.

Again we need to bring up the fact that Jamal is solid in half the games he plays and then terrible in the other half, and terrible means 35% shooting. All while playing no defense, this can't be defended look at his splits.

I'm shocked that you would say such things.

i'm flabbergasted.
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