Posted by sebstar:

Posted by Uptown:

Posted by sebstar:

cat is going to be a star...wanted him from day one out of anybody in the draft. Absolutely pathetic that we didnt pull out all the stops to get him.

We tried, but the Golden Boy (Lee) put an end to those dreams.

I feel you, and i remember all that but we're talking about moving up a slot. I dont think the Grizz were that sold on Mayo. We just had to get it done. Duke is already averaging 25 damn near. I was sick when draft day happened, and I'm getting even sicker..

If we got the Griz' pick, we could have taken Love for Minny then him and an expiring (Malik maybe)for Mayo and one of those contracts they were trying to unload (Jaric).....

Posted by crzymdups:

Posted by TMS:

rooting for losses last year is the same as rooting for losses any year there's a bigtime talent in the draft... i'd be fine w/not getting Mayo if we can nab a Jennings, Derozan or the like this season... either way we can end up w/a future star player to build around.

honestly i think there's a big difference between rooting for losses in November when you don't know what the team can do and rooting for losses in March and April when it's clear that the team needs major changes. I know we have basically the same talent base, but there were major leadership changes to the team and the talent we do have is being allowed to thrive now. Are we a great team? No. Not at all. I'd say this team has a ceiling of 40 wins if everything goes great. BUT, winning 40 games with this roster makes trades and rebuilding a LOT more flexible. I am more a proponent of trading up in the draft than trying to tank.

I really think tanking this season would make most of the roster completely untradeable and then there's no way we'd have cap room. I think winning and the players looking good is in everyone's best interest.

still, it'd be nice to have Mayo and that meaningless three game winning streak in April killed me.

i pretty much am resigned to know that this current team is not a legit playoff contender w/this current bunch of players... if i'm proven wrong i would be more than happy to man up to it, that's never been a problem for me.

what i don't get is how people somehow think that because we added a new head coach that these guys have all of a sudden transformed from being the laughing stock of the NBA 20 something win team to now being legit contenders in the Eastern Conference, or even have the hope that they have... it's a really strange thing & i think it's born out of desperation for optimism... i'm not a quintessential pessimist like some guys were on these forums, i'm just a realist... i try to temper my excitement anytime i see this team win 4 or 5 in a row because i've seen them do it before & fall back to earth again... i also don't bash on the Knicks at every turn like other posters around here just for the hell of it.

i'm hoping for real change & really believe the only way that will ever happen is if we change our complete philosophy of how to build a winning team... so far i'm very lukewarm on what Walsh has done... on the 1 hand he hasn't taken on any bad deals, so for doing nothing on that front i have guarded optimism that he actually is committed to this plan for 2010... on the other hand, he hasn't done much to unload any of the bad contracts he needs to unload if he wants any shot at being under the cap in 2010 either, so that is a bit of a concern too... he's playing the waiting game & i hope he doesn't come up craps because of it... he obviously knows a lot more about building a franchise than any one of us do so all i can do is trust in his judgement... that doesn't mean i can't voice my opinions on what i think this team should be doing to implement that plan tho, does it?

what u said about the potential damage that can be done to players' trade values when u tank is dead on, but the thing is even if we have our current guys at top value we still won't be landing any franchise calibre talent in a trade, we gotta be real about it... the best way to get a franchise talent is via the draft or free agency in our current situation because we don't have the pieces in place to trade for one... we can also target accumulating the type of young talent it would take to make a viable play for one via trade someday through the draft too... bottomline is we should always be looking at draft positioning to land a better talent until we become good enough of a team to start looking at the starphuch type deals to take us to the next level... we need to establish a core foundation first tho... i think some posters just wanna skip over building that foundation & just go right to putting up curtains & picking out carpets tho... all that does is puts some decoration on top of a house that won't stand for long.

I wanted Knicks to trade up for Mayo even if it cost them, Lee, NAte, whoever... I thought he was their best bet to get a star or close to it. Instead they took Gallo which as a player I was OK with, but he's damaged goods making it a disaster pick. Who knows if the guy ever plays and at what level. More of the same in Knick land. We had zero margin for error and needed to get *something* with that 6 pick. Instead we got hosed

Posted by fishmike:

I wanted Knicks to trade up for Mayo even if it cost them, Lee, NAte, whoever... I thought he was their best bet to get a star or close to it. Instead they took Gallo which as a player I was OK with, but he's damaged goods making it a disaster pick. Who knows if the guy ever plays and at what level. More of the same in Knick land. We had zero margin for error and needed to get *something* with that 6 pick. Instead we got hosed

somewhere in my mind, I would say that is overreacting, but deep down in my heart, the more and more I keep hearing reports about his back, I agree with you. We had zero margin of error and although I really like gallo and his skillset and upside, the kid is seeming more and more like damaged goods. Something we could not afford at this point!!

I am ok with the player. 6'10 guys with PG skills and a complete offensive arsenal dont grow on trees. But you MUST MUST MUST be sure he's healthy at pick 6. The Pacers could take a risk on Granger's health because of where they drafted him, but when your high or mid lottery you have GOT TO BE SURE the guy isnt damaged. We need building block players. OK.. maybe Bayless or Alexander dont become stars but they should be NBA players.

I almost hope this is a result of the Tractor Traylor hit (hard to imagine) just to give our management benefit of doubt.

Chandler, Lee, Nate, Duhon... might not be stars but they are building block players. Good cheap guys you can plug in that give you flexibility. Now we just have a lame duck pick whom we hope will play next year.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by fishmike:

I wanted Knicks to trade up for Mayo even if it cost them, Lee, NAte, whoever... I thought he was their best bet to get a star or close to it. Instead they took Gallo which as a player I was OK with, but he's damaged goods making it a disaster pick. Who knows if the guy ever plays and at what level. More of the same in Knick land. We had zero margin for error and needed to get *something* with that 6 pick. Instead we got hosed

as far as we know the Knicks had the deal worked out & agreed upon to get him... it was Lee & his agent that nixed it... just part of the horrible luck of being a Knicks fan.

btw, some would say that plan is also throwing all one's eggs into 1 basket, but you don't seem to have a problem going that route... how is that any different from wanting to trade D Lee, etc. now to gain more assets in the draft this season & aiming for a higher lottery pick?

Reconfigure the deal, promise Lee you'll sign him back, anything! The Knicks heart was not in it. Mayo is a special talent. That was clear and we blew it.

Posted by TMS:

Posted by fishmike:

I wanted Knicks to trade up for Mayo even if it cost them, Lee, NAte, whoever... I thought he was their best bet to get a star or close to it. Instead they took Gallo which as a player I was OK with, but he's damaged goods making it a disaster pick. Who knows if the guy ever plays and at what level. More of the same in Knick land. We had zero margin for error and needed to get *something* with that 6 pick. Instead we got hosed

as far as we know the Knicks had the deal worked out & agreed upon to get him... it was Lee & his agent that nixed it... just part of the horrible luck of being a Knicks fan.

btw, some would say that plan is also throwing all one's eggs into 1 basket, but you don't seem to have a problem going that route... how is that any different from wanting to trade D Lee, etc. now to gain more assets in the draft this season & aiming for a higher lottery pick?

who says I have a problem with that? I have no problem with forward thinking. If you get back a good package for Lee who at the very worst is a productive rotation player than fine. If your just dumping assets for something totally intangible (summer of 2010) then thats not fine, its a mistake.

I love the idea of the Knicks positioning themselves for a max level FA in 2010, but not at the expense of burning assets to do so. The simple fact is very few star players leave to sign elsewhere. Even Elton Brand and Baron Davis, good as they are are NOT in the category of Wade/Bosh/Lebron. Maybe we are the first since Shaq left the Magic to sign a franchise FA. But history proves that is highly unlikely, and dumping good players for a chance to sign a FA will more likely translate into us overpaying for the last guy out there.

If you can make trades that improve our prospects and growth as a team while at the same time opening up space in 2010 then great. If your going to dump guys like Lee and or Nate for a #25 pick and expiring contract then your going to have lousy teams that nobody wants to play for anyway

Elton Brand has played on some very very bad teams. I wouldnt be suprised if his career winning % isnt any better than Zach's.

And your right... if burning assets is the only way to cap space I am dead set against it. Show me the model your following. Show me the franchise that has won a title by dumping good players or assets for cap space.

As for starphucking? Is that bad? Didnt the Celtics just win an NBA title starphucking? Didnt Detroit prove that you can build a team and become a contender? Before those teams the only ones that won champs had a franchise player that they drafted. Just because Isiah made terrible trades doesnt mean his approach was wrong. Spending money on good players isnt a bad thing. Wasting it is.

like i've told u before on other threads, the Celtics model is perfectly acceptable to me... if u can develop ur young talent & then amass cap space to make the type of trade for the type of player that BOS got by starphuching (KG), then all power to us... i have no problem w/a move like that whatsoever... what i don't wanna see is players like Vince Carter, Michael Redd, Gerald Wallace, etc. targetted w/the assets we currently have just so we can eek out a cheap playoff appearance w/no shot at winning a title... players like that should be brought in AFTER u acquire that franchise player to build around to round out the team, not before... btw, the Celtics already had Paul Pierce in place too before they made any of those moves... we don't have a player in Pierce's class... the only way we're ever gonna get one is either by drafting one or signing 1 via free agency... ain't no way we're gonna be able to starphuch trade our way to get one w/what we currently have.

who said I was comparing Zach to Brand? Brand is great but he's played on just as many 30 win teams as Zach has. My comment Brand isnt a franchise player. He's not Duncan. He's not even Jermain Oneil (healthy). I am a big fan of all things Elton Brand too. The point is if you take the 5 best players to leave their team in the last 8 years (via UFA) who are they? Brand, Baron, McGrady, Grant Hill and... ??? I have yet to see that model yield the title you and others clinging to that model seem to think is on the horizon.

Did Boston use cap space? pretty sure they matched salaries in that KG deal and the Ray Allen deal as well.

This might go down as one of the best NBA draft class since 03'.