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Whats wrong with David Lee????
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oohah
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11/6/2008  12:26 PM
Posted by franco12:


In this system! They key is spacing. I see Lee being used up high much more than in the past when we tended to pack things in.

I think "in this system" we'll find that David Lee's hot "spots" are within 5 feet from the basket, 10 feet on a good day, and 15 feet about 1 in every 6-8 games.

David Lee can shoot from the baseline a little something though. I think he should find his way there more often.

oohah



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oohah
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11/6/2008  12:29 PM
So Lee is missing shots because of the system, Randolph, his ankle, his uncle, possible family problems, Saturn is rising...what about the last 3 years? What a tumultuous life he must have!

Come on guys, I like Lee too but the excuse-making for him is out of control. He is an around the basket player. That is what he is. Maybe if he keeps working he will finally develop a simple set shot from 15. No excuses, just hard work.

oohah

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TMS
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11/6/2008  12:34 PM
i agree, i don't think Lee will ever develop the range that Troy Murphy has (just using him as an example of another good rebounding PF who doesn't play any defense)... Lee is best utilized in a system where u have a playmaking G & a defensive minded C... u can't have Zach & Lee as ur frontcourt & expect a balanced team.

if i could trade Lee & Nate for Camby & LAC's 1st rounder i'd do it in a heartbeat.

[Edited by - TMS on 11-06-2008 09:35 AM]
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Masterplan
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11/6/2008  1:05 PM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by franco12:


In this system! They key is spacing. I see Lee being used up high much more than in the past when we tended to pack things in.

I think "in this system" we'll find that David Lee's hot "spots" are within 5 feet from the basket, 10 feet on a good day, and 15 feet about 1 in every 6-8 games.

David Lee can shoot from the baseline a little something though. I think he should find his way there more often.

oohah

those are definitely the spots where he should be looking for his points. but you're implying that he should just chill there every offensive possession, and in that respect i'm more with franco, i think you're oversimplifying that his one role on offense is to score. one of lee's assets is his passing - he's good at swinging the ball when he gets it outside the 3pt line, or dishing it to shooters or cutters from the high post. so he can be effective there. as far as "the system" goes, d'antoni likes cutters flashing into the paint, something lee can do if he sets up farther out or that other people can do if lee isn't clogging the space.

it seems we go through this debate every season. a little variance is natural. we'd like to think hustle should translate into a double-double every night for him, but it just won't. he'll have some monster games too, he definitely deserves a big rotation spot, even if he's not necessarily ideal as a starter on a more stocked team. i personally am still up in the air as to whether we should try to lock him up or if we get better value in a trade... just gotta wait and see i guess.

[Edited by - Masterplan on 11-06-2008 1:36 PM]
newyorknewyork
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11/6/2008  1:21 PM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

I think we should give him at least a full month before we come to any conclusions. He had a great preseason and we have played 4 games into the regular season. So far he has had 1 very good, game 1 solid game, and 2 bad games.

He could end up tearing up the rest of the month or he can continue to go down hill, or he can be inconsistant. We should at lest wait a month and see where he is at.

At this point of his career I believe we should all know who David Lee is as a player.

oohah

We do know who Lee is as a player, and he has been better then what he has shown the last 2 games. Do you really believe Lee is an 8pt 2reb guy, or a 3pt 2 reb guy?? Lee being Lee is easily a 12-14pt 10reb guy at 55%fg 80%ft.
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TMS
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11/6/2008  1:32 PM
D Lee is definitely better than what he's shown so far this year.
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oohah
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11/6/2008  1:52 PM
those are definitely the spots where he should be looking for his points. but you're implying that he should just chill there every offensive possession, and in that respect i'm more with franco, i think you're oversimplifying that his one role on offense is to score. one of lee's assets is his passing - he's good at swinging the ball when he gets it outside the 3pt line, or dishing it to shooters or cutters from the high post. so he can be effective there. as far as "the system" goes, d'antoni likes cutters flashing into the paint, something lee can do if he sets up farther out or that other people can do if lee isn't clogging the space.

it seems we go through this debate every season. a little variance is natural. we'd like to think hustle should translate into a double-double every night for him, but it just won't. he'll have some monster games too, he definitely deserves a big rotation spot, even if he's not necessarily ideal as a starter on a more stocked team. i personally am still up in the air as to whether we should try to lock him up or if we get better value in a trade... just gotta wait and see i guess.

I'm not sure where you got the impression that I implied that David Lee should chill anywhere but around 5 feet the basket.

Let me be clear: David Lee should stay within 5 feet of the basket most of the time because in his 3 year career that is were he has shown that he can be very effective offense-wise.

However, when shooting from the outside, again, throughout his whole career he has only shown the ability to stick the jumper with any consistency from the baseline to the right side of the basket, with his left arm lined up to the basket, right arm next to the baseline. However, I don't think he should "chill there" because he is not a good enough shooter to chill anywhere but close to the basket.

This whole "find Lee's spots in the system" thing is dubious. He isn't Kiki Vanderwhege. And systems don't change who players are. They maximize or minimize a players abilities or weaknesses. David Lee is very good around the basket, his jumper is decent from the baseline, and to a much lesser extent from straight on with the basket. D'Antoni's system is not going to magically change that.

It is up to Lee to find the spots where he is consistent and that is regardless of the system or coach. A perfect example is Kurt Thomas. He took at least 50% of his jumpers on the baseline. That was and is his most effective shooting area and he knows it so he finds himself there for scoring opportunities. Nobodies system is going to change that. It is up to the player to get to those spots, or if the system does not allow it, find somewhere else to be effective from. In David Lee's case, around 5 feet from the basket.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Vmart
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11/6/2008  1:56 PM
DLee is a decent player that gets a lot of love because he say the right things in the interviews. He is an excellent teammate. Works hard on the boards and has a knack for rebounds. His defense is a liability but he tries. The jumper is improved but not by much would like for him to change his form on the jumper and maybe jump when he shoots talk about a set shot. He is best as a 6th man but the Knicks need him to start and basically over achieve. He is a 14-10 guy which isn't bad.

I'm glad that Lee didn't get the contract extension. I wouldn't resign Lee I would let him go after the season and see If the Knicks can get a couple of picks for him if possible.

[Edited by - Vmart on 11-06-2008 1:58 PM]
oohah
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11/6/2008  1:56 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

We do know who Lee is as a player, and he has been better then what he has shown the last 2 games. Do you really believe Lee is an 8pt 2reb guy, or a 3pt 2 reb guy?? Lee being Lee is easily a 12-14pt 10reb guy at 55%fg 80%ft.

Lee has spent most of his career coming off the bench. Playing against starters is a different ballgame. Do I expect him to play awful every night? No, I don't.

But I do expect him to get eaten alive (scored on) by a lot of PF's and Centers. In terms of his own offense I think things won't be as easy for him as when he was going against the other team's second team most of the time.

oohah



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sebstar
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11/6/2008  2:03 PM
Including Lee in a package could very well significantly impact the long term health of our franchise. I think its a foregone conclusion at this point. He's clearly not a franchise player by any stretch.
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Masterplan
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11/6/2008  2:05 PM
Posted by oohah:

I'm not sure where you got the impression that I implied that David Lee should chill anywhere but around 5 feet the basket.

Let me be clear: David Lee should stay within 5 feet of the basket most of the time because in his 3 year career that is were he has shown that he can be very effective offense-wise.

OK, so to be clear, you think "David Lee should stay within 5 feet of the basket most of the time." that's what i was saying in the line you bolded, but i very much disagree. i think he has shown he can be a part of the team offense through his passing farther from teh basket. and except for singular players like eddy curry, guys that score ~5' from the basket *should not* just stay there to hope to get the ball and convert. especially in a system like d'antoni's, they start farther away and cut into the paint (or "dive" as it was called in his phoenix system), or run a pick & roll with a guard, or crash the boards for a putback. david lee's strength is not posting up 5' from the basket, it's being mobile and active all around the floor on O.
However, when shooting from the outside, again, throughout his whole career he has only shown the ability to stick the jumper with any consistency from the baseline to the right side of the basket, with his left arm lined up to the basket, right arm next to the baseline. However, I don't think he should "chill there" because he is not a good enough shooter to chill anywhere but close to the basket.

This whole "find Lee's spots in the system" thing is dubious. He isn't Kiki Vanderwhege. And systems don't change who players are. They maximize or minimize a players abilities or weaknesses. David Lee is very good around the basket, his jumper is decent from the baseline, and to a much lesser extent from straight on with the basket. D'Antoni's system is not going to magically change that.

It is up to Lee to find the spots where he is consistent and that is regardless of the system or coach. A perfect example is Kurt Thomas. He took at least 50% of his jumpers on the baseline. That was and is his most effective shooting area and he knows it so he finds himself there for scoring opportunities. Nobodies system is going to change that. It is up to the player to get to those spots, or if the system does not allow it, find somewhere else to be effective from. In David Lee's case, around 5 feet from the basket.

oohah

we're not seeing eye to eye on this "find his spots" terminology. i think you're taking too specific a view, that is, spots he should shoot from. i see it as where he should set up in the offense. as a coach, you'd be setting him and the team up to fail if you confined him 5' from the basket. i just don't see how that would make any sense whatsoever.
Bippity10
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11/6/2008  2:13 PM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

We do know who Lee is as a player, and he has been better then what he has shown the last 2 games. Do you really believe Lee is an 8pt 2reb guy, or a 3pt 2 reb guy?? Lee being Lee is easily a 12-14pt 10reb guy at 55%fg 80%ft.

Lee has spent most of his career coming off the bench. Playing against starters is a different ballgame. Do I expect him to play awful every night? No, I don't.

But I do expect him to get eaten alive (scored on) by a lot of PF's and Centers. In terms of his own offense I think things won't be as easy for him as when he was going against the other team's second team most of the time.

oohah

I think that's accurate. I think that and playing out of position has had an effect on his game. I think he may have even lost a little confidence as a result of both of these things. I like David, he's a good player and has a role on a good team. But he's definitely expendable.
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oohah
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11/6/2008  2:47 PM
OK, so to be clear, you think "David Lee should stay within 5 feet of the basket most of the time." that's what i was saying in the line you bolded, but i very much disagree. i think he has shown he can be a part of the team offense through his passing farther from teh basket. and except for singular players like eddy curry, guys that score ~5' from the basket *should not* just stay there to hope to get the ball and convert. especially in a system like d'antoni's, they start farther away and cut into the paint (or "dive" as it was called in his phoenix system), or run a pick & roll with a guard, or crash the boards for a putback. david lee's strength is not posting up 5' from the basket, it's being mobile and active all around the floor on O.

we're not seeing eye to eye on this "find his spots" terminology. i think you're taking too specific a view, that is, spots he should shoot from. i see it as where he should set up in the offense. as a coach, you'd be setting him and the team up to fail if you confined him 5' from the basket. i just don't see how that would make any sense whatsoever.

Okay, I misunderstood what you were saying. But from a scoring standpoint Lee has shown consistently that he is effective near the basket rebounding and finishing off of cuts, and ineffective further away, specifically shooting from the outside.

However, I do agree with you that from further away from the basket he can be more effective passing than shooting. but I don't think that should be the main use of David Lee.

Lee's postup game is not very effective. He is not an "offensive player" like Randolph who you can give the ball to and ask to score, at least not frequently. He's a garbageman and I do not say that to disparage him, he plays that role very well and it is a role that is very useful in the NBA and he can help any team in the league with that ability.

oohah

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Allanfan20
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11/6/2008  2:59 PM
Lees problem on offense is that he's very passive and frequently inconfident. He has all the ability in the world to make good post up moves, but he doesn't agree. And then when he's going up for layups he frequently double clutches or barely taps balls back on the rim (When grabbing offensive rebounds.) Then on other occasions, his layups and dunk attempts get stuffed. With his athletic ability, this should, in no way, be happening. There's no reason he can't go up strong for the power dunk, over anyone he wants, on almost every occasion. To top it off, he has all the capability of being a good big man shooter, yet he thinks WAAAAY too much when he puts it up.

He, like Jamal, lose confidence in their entire games, very quickly.

With that said, his defense flat out sucks, and THAT is why he is expendable.
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TheSage
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11/6/2008  3:04 PM
Lee looked great at the start of the season before he hurt his ankle. he finally started becoming a threat with the J and it seemed to fall off after the injury. Give it time to get back to where the ankle was before the injury. He has improved avery aspect of his game since his rookie season and I see no reason, other than than the injury for the regression.

He may be the hardest worker on the team. I don't understand why he was not extended because 1- the extension would tie him up at a lower cost than a match at season's end and 2-increases trade value to a team that might want him in atrade.
newyorknewyork
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11/6/2008  3:05 PM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

We do know who Lee is as a player, and he has been better then what he has shown the last 2 games. Do you really believe Lee is an 8pt 2reb guy, or a 3pt 2 reb guy?? Lee being Lee is easily a 12-14pt 10reb guy at 55%fg 80%ft.

Lee has spent most of his career coming off the bench. Playing against starters is a different ballgame. Do I expect him to play awful every night? No, I don't.

But I do expect him to get eaten alive (scored on) by a lot of PF's and Centers. In terms of his own offense I think things won't be as easy for him as when he was going against the other team's second team most of the time.

oohah

Thats fair, we will see how it plays out.

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Bippity10
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11/7/2008  8:20 AM
Posted by Allanfan20:

Lees problem on offense is that he's very passive and frequently inconfident. He has all the ability in the world to make good post up moves, but he doesn't agree. And then when he's going up for layups he frequently double clutches or barely taps balls back on the rim (When grabbing offensive rebounds.) Then on other occasions, his layups and dunk attempts get stuffed. With his athletic ability, this should, in no way, be happening. There's no reason he can't go up strong for the power dunk, over anyone he wants, on almost every occasion. To top it off, he has all the capability of being a good big man shooter, yet he thinks WAAAAY too much when he puts it up.

He, like Jamal, lose confidence in their entire games, very quickly.

With that said, his defense flat out sucks, and THAT is why he is expendable.


David Lee needs to learn how to use his body. Well there's a caveat to that, in that he's not very strong to begin with. But he needs to learn how to bump people and use his body to shield people from the ball. Unfortunatley he tries to go straight up and power the ball in, but everyone in the NBA can jump. So you have to learn to use your body.
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Whats wrong with David Lee????

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