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oohah
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9/30/2008  11:44 AM
Posted by nixluva:

Actually the whole point of Microfracture surgery is to promote or force the body to produce more cartilage. It has proven to be an effective procedure, but for an athlete who is going to abuse that joint it many not be enough. Walking and playing with your kids yeah, but he'll be doing much more than that. Still other players have comeback and played well, so it could be done.

Nixluva,

I've had 3 microfractures, I know all about it. The cartilage doesn't "grow" back as much as it kind of oozes out of the bone and becomes a scab. It is scar cartilage, not the good stuff you had when you were a kid which never grows back after 16-18 years old. And that is if the scarring process works, which it doesn't always(trust me on this.).

The question as you said is IF the cartilage scabs over, did it happen enough to play professional basketball? The answer is: rarely in older athletes. Jason Kidd is an anomaly and that is probably because his microfracture was on a non-weight bearing area of his knee. Not every microfracture is successful by a long shot, and it was really developed to get people walking and stave off arthritis more than put a knee through the rigors of the NBA.

Like Martin said in another thread, we'll know when we see Houston run. His last comeback during LB Houston was not really running, he was marching fast, and it was a something I am all to familiar with.

They should make a 3-on-3 pro league just for guys like Houston.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
AUTOADVERT
sebstar
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9/30/2008  8:32 PM
Posted by franco12:

Allan will always be able to shoot.

The question is, can he play defense:


Why cant he be Dell Curry?
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
nixluva
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9/30/2008  9:03 PM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by nixluva:

Actually the whole point of Microfracture surgery is to promote or force the body to produce more cartilage. It has proven to be an effective procedure, but for an athlete who is going to abuse that joint it many not be enough. Walking and playing with your kids yeah, but he'll be doing much more than that. Still other players have comeback and played well, so it could be done.

Nixluva,

I've had 3 microfractures, I know all about it. The cartilage doesn't "grow" back as much as it kind of oozes out of the bone and becomes a scab. It is scar cartilage, not the good stuff you had when you were a kid which never grows back after 16-18 years old. And that is if the scarring process works, which it doesn't always(trust me on this.).

The question as you said is IF the cartilage scabs over, did it happen enough to play professional basketball? The answer is: rarely in older athletes. Jason Kidd is an anomaly and that is probably because his microfracture was on a non-weight bearing area of his knee. Not every microfracture is successful by a long shot, and it was really developed to get people walking and stave off arthritis more than put a knee through the rigors of the NBA.

Like Martin said in another thread, we'll know when we see Houston run. His last comeback during LB Houston was not really running, he was marching fast, and it was a something I am all to familiar with.

They should make a 3-on-3 pro league just for guys like Houston.

oohah
I'll give you that you've had the procedure, but that doesn't make you an expert, nor would your experience necessarily match that of others. Just to back up my point and clarify what you said about the procedure here is statement about the procedure:

Microfracture surgery is one of the articular cartilage repair surgical techniques that works by creating tiny fractures in the underlying bone. This causes new cartilage to develop from a so-called super-clot. Microfracture surgery has gained a profile in the sports world in recent years; numerous professional athletes including members of the NBA (most notably Greg Oden and Amare Stoudemire), NFL and NHL have undergone the procedure.

The surgery is performed by arthroscopy. After cleaning the calcified cartilage, the surgeon creates tiny fractures in the adjacent bones (through the use of an awl). Blood and bone marrow (which contains stem cells) seep out of the fractures, creating a blood clot that releases cartilage-building cells. The microfractures are treated as an injury by the body, which is why the surgery results in new, replacement cartilage.[6] The procedure is less effective in treating older patients, overweight patients, or a cartilage lesion larger than 2.5 cm.[6] Further on, chances are high that after only 1 or 2 years of the surgery symptoms start to return as the fibrocartilage wears away, forcing the patient to reengage in articular cartilage repair. This is not always the case and microfracture surgery is therefore considered to be an intermediate step.[7]


Now this is not to say that H2O now has new Knees and a full level of cartilage, but my point remains the same. He may be able to run nearly pain free and appears to be doing just so according to Alan Hahn who saw him run in practice without a hitch as he once had.
oohah
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9/30/2008  9:31 PM
I'll give you that you've had the procedure, but that doesn't make you an expert, nor would your experience necessarily match that of others. Just to back up my point and clarify what you said about the procedure here is statement about the procedure:

No, having 3 microfractures wouldn't make me an expert, but the orthopedic surgeons that I consulted and questioned extensively, who pioneered microfracture, who also include the very same doctor who performed microfracture on Allan Houston, are experts. Also, I think you should know by now that I do my research and I have researched microfracture exhaustively. So I know from where I speak.

Anyway, your bolding left out a lot, such as:
"[6] The procedure is less effective in treating older patients(check), overweight patients, or a cartilage lesion larger than 2.5 cm.[6]"(probably a check too)

and
Further on, chances are high that after only 1 or 2 years of the surgery symptoms start to return as the fibrocartilage wears away(check)

It wears away quickly because the cartilage that forms is a scab cartilage, not the good stuff you were born with. If you re-read the quote that you posted it pretty much is exactly what I said.

They are now doing microfracture on younger athletes, because guys around 19/21 like Oden and Stoudamire may still have some ability to generate true cartilage, and they want to do it before the injury progresses to a large size as described above as a contraindicator to a successful microfracture.

Now, whether or not Houston can run pain free(Which I don't believe) at the moment is immaterial to playing regular minutes in the NBA. That is the true test. I can play ball 1-2 times a week (theoretically that is, I really only play once a week), but if I try to play 3,4,5 days a week like when I was a kid, I will experience great pain and my cartilage will wear away. In fact, I have not only had 3 microfracture, but a cartilage transplant to go along with it, which I think Houston should have done because you get real cartilage, not the shytty scab cartilage.

Anyway, I don't want to rain on Houston's parade, as he is one of my favorite Knicks ever, and I want him to beat the odds. But realistically, even if he can play a whole season, I expect he will be very limited in mobility (already reported), and won't be able to play serious minutes. The only athlete of his age that I know of who has bounced back almost completely is Jason Kidd, and even he is not the same.

My experience, Houston's and Weber's are pretty typical, Kidd and is atypical. Stoudamire is a new type of case because they didn't used to do microfracture on young athlete often.

In a few years, microfracture will be considered a stone age therapy. There is a procedure available right now, where they harvest your own cartilage, grow it in a lab, and implant it in your knee a couple of months later. Microfracture will be virtually abandoned. Soon they will be able to this personal transplant arthroscopically, but currently it is available only as an open-knee procedure to my knowledge.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 30-09-2008 9:48 PM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
JUNKMEIN
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10/1/2008  9:04 AM
Oohah,

Can you post the medical term and some links for the new procedure you mentioned (where they harvest your cartilage)? I've got a friend that practically had her foot ripped off from the ankle after she was hit by a cab as a 7 year old kid. The doctors reattached the foot but now as a 40 year old woman she is dealing with major arthritis in the joint (reduced motion and clumps of scar tissue). The issue from the xrays is that she's missing massive amounts of cartilage in her ankle joint. She's gone to the several doctors over the years to see if there's anything that can be done but has met with no luck. All have only suggested physical therapy as a solution and that her condition will be permanent. Any information you can pass on: Doctors, numbers, suggestions....whatever...would be greatly greatly appreciated.

Thanks a Mill,

Junkmein
Posted by oohah:
I'll give you that you've had the procedure, but that doesn't make you an expert, nor would your experience necessarily match that of others. Just to back up my point and clarify what you said about the procedure here is statement about the procedure:

No, having 3 microfractures wouldn't make me an expert, but the orthopedic surgeons that I consulted and questioned extensively, who pioneered microfracture, who also include the very same doctor who performed microfracture on Allan Houston, are experts. Also, I think you should know by now that I do my research and I have researched microfracture exhaustively. So I know from where I speak.

Anyway, your bolding left out a lot, such as:
"[6] The procedure is less effective in treating older patients(check), overweight patients, or a cartilage lesion larger than 2.5 cm.[6]"(probably a check too)

and
Further on, chances are high that after only 1 or 2 years of the surgery symptoms start to return as the fibrocartilage wears away(check)

It wears away quickly because the cartilage that forms is a scab cartilage, not the good stuff you were born with. If you re-read the quote that you posted it pretty much is exactly what I said.

They are now doing microfracture on younger athletes, because guys around 19/21 like Oden and Stoudamire may still have some ability to generate true cartilage, and they want to do it before the injury progresses to a large size as described above as a contraindicator to a successful microfracture.

Now, whether or not Houston can run pain free(Which I don't believe) at the moment is immaterial to playing regular minutes in the NBA. That is the true test. I can play ball 1-2 times a week (theoretically that is, I really only play once a week), but if I try to play 3,4,5 days a week like when I was a kid, I will experience great pain and my cartilage will wear away. In fact, I have not only had 3 microfracture, but a cartilage transplant to go along with it, which I think Houston should have done because you get real cartilage, not the shytty scab cartilage.

Anyway, I don't want to rain on Houston's parade, as he is one of my favorite Knicks ever, and I want him to beat the odds. But realistically, even if he can play a whole season, I expect he will be very limited in mobility (already reported), and won't be able to play serious minutes. The only athlete of his age that I know of who has bounced back almost completely is Jason Kidd, and even he is not the same.

My experience, Houston's and Weber's are pretty typical, Kidd and is atypical. Stoudamire is a new type of case because they didn't used to do microfracture on young athlete often.

In a few years, microfracture will be considered a stone age therapy. There is a procedure available right now, where they harvest your own cartilage, grow it in a lab, and implant it in your knee a couple of months later. Microfracture will be virtually abandoned. Soon they will be able to this personal transplant arthroscopically, but currently it is available only as an open-knee procedure to my knowledge.

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 30-09-2008 9:48 PM]





[Edited by - Junkmein on 10-01-2008 09:17 AM]
oohah
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10/1/2008  3:44 PM
Oohah,

Can you post the medical term and some links for the new procedure you mentioned (where they harvest your cartilage)? I've got a friend that practically had her foot ripped off from the ankle after she was hit by a cab as a 7 year old kid. The doctors reattached the foot but now as a 40 year old woman she is dealing with major arthritis in the joint (reduced motion and clumps of scar tissue). The issue from the xrays is that she's missing massive amounts of cartilage in her ankle joint. She's gone to the several doctors over the years to see if there's anything that can be done but has met with no luck. All have only suggested physical therapy as a solution and that her condition will be permanent. Any information you can pass on: Doctors, numbers, suggestions....whatever...would be greatly greatly appreciated.

Thanks a Mill,

Junkmein

Wow, Junkmein, that is too bad about what happened to your friend. I will look into it for you, but to my understanding, at this time, there is a limit to how much cartilage they can grow. That is why I had to have cartilage from a cadaver implanted into my knee (Gross!). However, all those cells have been replaced by my own almost 3 years later.

I would bet that your friend would have to go the cadaver route if cartilage transplant is available for ankles. All my research has been knee-related so I am not certain.

When I had my transplant, only 3 doctors in this area actually did the surgery, and as I recall, the Doctor I did not use specialized in ankles. I'll go through my notes and look up what information I can find for you. Do me a big favor, if I don't get back in touch with you real soon, remind me, okay? I'm serious.

We should all be tissue donors, I would be walking with a severe limp if it weren't for the generosity of somebody who has passed on. And shame on me because I still haven't filled out the back of my drinking license yet. I'm going to do it now.

oohah



Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Allanfan20
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10/1/2008  3:46 PM
^Drinking license?
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
oohah
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10/1/2008  3:48 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

^Drinking license?

I've lived in Manhattan my whole life, I've never had a car or a driver's license. I just have a permit A.K.A a "drinking license"

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Allanfan20
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10/1/2008  3:50 PM
I don't have my permits anymore. I had 2 of them. I might have gotton rid of them (I don't know though) b/c I was sick of people asking me to have them so they can have fake IDs. I guess I felt like being a prick.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
JUNKMEIN
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10/3/2008  1:52 PM
Oohah,

When you get an opportunity forward that information to me. I showed her the post and she's very interested in investigating further. Let me know and thanks.

Junkmein
Posted by oohah:
Posted by Allanfan20:

^Drinking license?

I've lived in Manhattan my whole life, I've never had a car or a driver's license. I just have a permit A.K.A a "drinking license"

oohah

oohah
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10/3/2008  3:36 PM
Posted by JUNKMEIN:

Oohah,

When you get an opportunity forward that information to me. I showed her the post and she's very interested in investigating further. Let me know and thanks.

I'm going to look through my research over the weekend. I should have something for you early next week.


oohah



Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
sebstar
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10/3/2008  5:18 PM
Nobody really responded to my post, so I'll say it again, is it not good enough for Houston to hit a couple of threes a game as a specialist, a la Dell Curry?
My saliva and spit can split thread into fiber and bits/ So trust me I'm as live as it gets. --Royce Da 5'9 + DJ Premier = Hip Hop Utopia
ramtour420
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10/3/2008  5:36 PM
With MDA system of spreading the floor i think Allan can really contribute, even if its 10-15 mins a game. He just has to take it easy as far as running, maybe be like a trailer but from the outside.
Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
Allanfan20
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10/3/2008  6:17 PM
Posted by sebstar:

Nobody really responded to my post, so I'll say it again, is it not good enough for Houston to hit a couple of threes a game as a specialist, a la Dell Curry?

They'd be different players. From what I remember, Dell Curry was very speedy and very much like a very very very light Reggie Miller. We'd be relying on Houston to post a little, and he'd be drawing double teams to clear space for Currydolph or be the recipient of Currydolph and Crawburyson drawing double. If his knees are OK and if he stops feeling this "Muscle tightening" I bertcha he gets more minutes quickly, if he makes the team.
“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
CrushAlot
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10/3/2008  6:23 PM
It does seem to take several years to recover from microfracture surgery although there have been exceptions. Kidd had it done and came back fine the following season. I think it ended Weber's career eventually. Remember this thread when people start proposing Zach for K Mart trades. Martin has had this surgery done on both of his knees.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
Finestrg
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10/3/2008  6:37 PM
I love Allan Houston. Wish him nothing but the best. Mad, mad respect for his game, what he meant to us and how he conducted himself. But for me, I just don't really understand the point of adding him to the roster. The team's in flux where only a couple of guys look to be definitive building blocks for the future (Chandler, Lee, Nate - and even these guys could go in the right deal). Everyone else is up in the air and I would trade anybody else at the drop of a hat in order to make this team better moving forward. Right now even with Allan we're a horrible team for the forseeable future. The emphasis should not be on winning games and making the playoffs. I cringe every single time I've heard that the past few seasons. We're not there yet. We'll know when it's time for that. Instead, the focus should be on player development and rebuilding a young, talented team. Now say Allan's actually able to go and he makes the team - Doesn't he take time away from someone else like Nate Robinson? Nate will be here in a few years, Houston won't. And say he plays well enough to the point where that deadly jumper actually wins us a few games in the 4th quarter this year --- again, what's the point? 35 wins instead of 30? That doesn't help us; that hurts us. That's progress for Allan individually, not the NY Knicks. All that does is hinder our draft position during the summer and that's the only thing we should be worried about right now. Those 5 meaningless wins could mean the difference between the 5th pick and the 8th, 9th or 10th pick - who knows how close the lottery teams will be record-wise by season's end. Could be a big difference.

Having said all that, I'm happy for the man and I hope this comeback helps him fulfill his desire to play the game he loves and you gotta admire the Knicks to a certain degree for showing him the respect and for giving him that chance. It's gotta suck knowing you we're still young enough to play but instead you we're derailed by injuries. No doubt he's put in a lot of hard work getting to this point. But I really believe in my heart that if the Knicks wanted to show him love, they should've offered him an executive spot or a spot as a FT/shooting coach, something, just not a roster spot. For a big guard off the bench this team needed a young player they could build around with toward the future, a JR Smith or better yet a Gerald Green. Not Allan Houston.
oohah
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10/3/2008  6:55 PM
I think it ended Weber's career eventually.

Microfracture did not end Weber's career, microfracture prolonged Weber's career. Were it not for Microfracture, he probably would have tried to come back and retired very quickly after.

But he was never the same after because his knee was torn up and arthritic (I believe), and he gained weight/lost athleticism during the recovery process.

Houston stuck around for about 1-1.5 years after his surgery, but guards have more trouble coming back because they have to run and cut so much more than post players.


oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Finestrg
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10/4/2008  12:02 AM
Posted by Finestrg:

I love Allan Houston. Wish him nothing but the best. Mad, mad respect for his game, what he meant to us and how he conducted himself. But for me, I just don't really understand the point of adding him to the roster. The team's in flux where only a couple of guys look to be definitive building blocks for the future (Chandler, Lee, Nate - and even these guys could go in the right deal). Everyone else is up in the air and I would trade anybody else at the drop of a hat in order to make this team better moving forward. Right now even with Allan we're a horrible team for the forseeable future. The emphasis should not be on winning games and making the playoffs. I cringe every single time I've heard that the past few seasons. We're not there yet. We'll know when it's time for that. Instead, the focus should be on player development and rebuilding a young, talented team. Now say Allan's actually able to go and he makes the team - Doesn't he take time away from someone else like Nate Robinson? Nate will be here in a few years, Houston won't. And say he plays well enough to the point where that deadly jumper actually wins us a few games in the 4th quarter this year --- again, what's the point? 35 wins instead of 30? That doesn't help us; that hurts us. That's progress for Allan individually, not the NY Knicks. All that does is hinder our draft position during the summer and that's the only thing we should be worried about right now. Those 5 meaningless wins could mean the difference between the 5th pick and the 8th, 9th or 10th pick - who knows how close the lottery teams will be record-wise by season's end. Could be a big difference.

Having said all that, I'm happy for the man and I hope this comeback helps him fulfill his desire to play the game he loves and you gotta admire the Knicks to a certain degree for showing him the respect and for giving him that chance. It's gotta suck knowing you were still young enough to play but instead you were derailed by injuries. No doubt he's put in a lot of hard work getting to this point. But I really believe in my heart that if the Knicks wanted to show him love, they should've offered him an executive spot or a spot as a FT/shooting coach, something, just not a roster spot. For a big guard off the bench this team needed a young player they could build around toward the future, a JR Smith or better yet a Gerald Green. Not Allan Houston.

CrushAlot
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10/4/2008  12:29 AM
I guess I should have been more clear. I understand what microfracture surgery is. If you have it it is because without it your career is done. However, the recovery time and the actual recovery from it often ends with basketball players not being able to continue their careers. If they are able to continue the majority have not been able to regain the level of skill they had prior to the surgery. I thought that Houston only played one season after his surgery and that it wasn't a full season. He maybe recovered but his leadership and character would be why he is on the team.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
oohah
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10/24/2008  4:16 AM
Nixluva, I've never been less happy to be totally correct, but as I said, Houston's knee simply cannot hold up to what the NBA will ask of it. He can probably still play with pros in a laid back game, he can probably look great in a pro-am game, but microfracture in your 30's, especially when your knee is really torn up simply does not give enough cartilage back to most players to play 82 games and practice too, especially guards.

I know you said I am not an expert, but as laymen go, I probably am an expert because of my personal experience with multiple microfracture and the research I conducted as I went through it.

By the way, I ran full court for the second time in 6 years a week ago and I was straight up on fire! Sure, it was a coed game, but 5 22 footers in a row off the glass is good vs. anyone, and I can hit that shot Vs. anybody if you just get me the damn ball!

I didn't rebound or play and defense, but who cares about that shyt anyway?!?

***

JUNKMEIN, I am bumping this thread so I can get you that info you requested. Sorry for the delay.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
H20 lookin good.....

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