Posted by nixluva:

Posted by Bippity10:

Mike in his conversations early this summer has determined if there is anyone worth writing off before the season starts. Despite how much some of us despise these guys, it's very rare that a coach will write someone off based on a meeting. Unless Mike has a prior belief about a particular position that was developed in the past, he is probably going to want to give these guys a chance. He's not on the same time frame we are. We have seen some of these guys for 1-4 years and are sick of them. Mike is workign with most for the first time. He may want to go through camp and part of the season before making a decision. I know this sucks for some, but I'm just trying to give you an idea of how a coach will look at things. I think Walsh owes it to the coach to give him most of what he wants. I can also guarantee that if Mike wants someone gone, Walsh will not hestitate to get rid of him.

Totally agree. It's not a situation were we should expect that Mike will rip thru this process like Isiah. He knows that it's gonna take some time for the players to be taught and brought up to speed in his system and way of thinking the game. We're really talking about a rare approach to the game from what most coaches do. In Isiah's dreams he wants to be a coach like Mike, only he couldn't pull it off. Maybe it was the players he brought in or maybe just him. We'll soon find out once Mike starts to run them thru his process.

All I know is that most players who play under Mike love him and feel he has a brilliant BB mind. I'm pretty positive that many of our players will like playing for him and learning from him. Our players have the rep of being dense when it comes to thinking the game, so we'll have to see just how dense they are. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that they won't look as bad as they have the last few years. I think it will be a combination of a bit more maturity, willingness to listen and talent that fits the style.

When Isiah was fired many of our players lost all of their "juice" cards. Now they have to play or else it's trully over for some of them. Mike has the juice right now and that is very valuable. I would not be surprised if Zach and Marbs are 100% good soldiers for a year at least. I'd actually be shocked if Marbs wasn't based on his contract. But with these guys I guess you never know. But from my point of view, despite their histories I don't think you are going to have an explosion from anyone. And if you do they will be dumped. At that point we will have lost any and all bargaining power and the summer trades will have looked great. It's a gamble but I can understand why we would make it. No matter how bad these guys have been, some of them do have some talent that other teams at some point may want.

i think the agreement is that walsh will deliver a superstar in 2010 to open the doors of the newly renovated garden...

[Edited by - djsunyc on 09-15-2008 10:37 PM]

Posted by Pharzeone:

Posted by Bippity10:

Posted by nixluva:

Posted by Bippity10:

Mike in his conversations early this summer has determined if there is anyone worth writing off before the season starts. Despite how much some of us despise these guys, it's very rare that a coach will write someone off based on a meeting. Unless Mike has a prior belief about a particular position that was developed in the past, he is probably going to want to give these guys a chance. He's not on the same time frame we are. We have seen some of these guys for 1-4 years and are sick of them. Mike is workign with most for the first time. He may want to go through camp and part of the season before making a decision. I know this sucks for some, but I'm just trying to give you an idea of how a coach will look at things. I think Walsh owes it to the coach to give him most of what he wants. I can also guarantee that if Mike wants someone gone, Walsh will not hestitate to get rid of him.

Totally agree. It's not a situation were we should expect that Mike will rip thru this process like Isiah. He knows that it's gonna take some time for the players to be taught and brought up to speed in his system and way of thinking the game. We're really talking about a rare approach to the game from what most coaches do. In Isiah's dreams he wants to be a coach like Mike, only he couldn't pull it off. Maybe it was the players he brought in or maybe just him. We'll soon find out once Mike starts to run them thru his process.

All I know is that most players who play under Mike love him and feel he has a brilliant BB mind. I'm pretty positive that many of our players will like playing for him and learning from him. Our players have the rep of being dense when it comes to thinking the game, so we'll have to see just how dense they are. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that they won't look as bad as they have the last few years. I think it will be a combination of a bit more maturity, willingness to listen and talent that fits the style.

When Isiah was fired many of our players lost all of their "juice" cards. Now they have to play or else it's trully over for some of them. Mike has the juice right now and that is very valuable. I would not be surprised if Zach and Marbs are 100% good soldiers for a year at least. I'd actually be shocked if Marbs wasn't based on his contract. But with these guys I guess you never know. But from my point of view, despite their histories I don't think you are going to have an explosion from anyone. And if you do they will be dumped. At that point we will have lost any and all bargaining power and the summer trades will have looked great. It's a gamble but I can understand why we would make it. No matter how bad these guys have been, some of them do have some talent that other teams at some point may want.

Bip, neither Donnie Walsh nor Mike D' have been in a situation similar to what they are in now. You may think that they have all the time in the world all you want but that depends on the thoughts of the owner and his status with his board. Riley said it best that the power structure at MSG is like no other. I am not sure what Dolan has told Donnie behind the scenes. As far as I know the guy may have given a timetable of sorts. Could be that this year is a pass or could be that there is a mandate to make the playoffs. Whatever Dolan told Donnie before he got here is out the door. The guy is Knick property now. If Dolan said make the playoffs this season or else in December because the Rangers are doing so well then the goal will switch to make the playoffs. Isiah made Dolan money so Dolan was happy. If Walsh/D'Antoni fail to make Cablevision post season money or significant regular season money they will be on the outside looking in just ask Scott Layden. Such is the life at MSG. Don't be fooled. The timetable is how long this team figures stay in the red.

I agree, Dolan is a scary side matter at this point who may come in and effect Mike and Donnie's plan. We all know this to be true. But if we are ever to win here it is going to take a GM and coach that will fight that and stick with their plan. So far all is quiet. When the losing starts things may change. But a good GM/coach are not going to make summer decision based on how the owner may react in December.

I agree that this city and owner are like no other, and that Mike and Donnie may face enormous pressure in the coming months. But this is a different situation then when Isiah and Layden with nothing on their resumes to back up their fight. Donnie and Mike have pretty strong resumes and can get a job in moments if they leave. They have won before and know what it takes. These types of guys tend to stick to their guns than a guy with no resume. That being said, it's all speculation. I'm sticking to this moment and doing what's right. And unless you think Zach is going to destroy your locker room(which I feel is a legitimate point of view even if I personally don't think he will), there is no logical reason to get rid of him. It's our own fan impatience and dislike for the players that is creating this logic.

Bip, not to pull hairs but I put Layden's resume up against Donnie's and Mike's anytime.
Layden was responsible for drafting two HOF players, acquired talent where no one else even thought about looking. The guy put together a team that went to back to back finals. Neither Donnie nor Mike have anything like that on their resume. So this can't be about resumes rather than results. And when I refer to results I mean making money for the Dolans.

Posted by Bippity10:

Posted by Pharzeone:

Bip, not to pull hairs but I put Layden's resume up against Donnie's and Mike's anytime.
Layden was responsible for drafting two HOF players, acquired talent where no one else even thought about looking. The guy put together a team that went to back to back finals. Neither Donnie nor Mike have anything like that on their resume. So this can't be about resumes rather than results. And when I refer to results I mean making money for the Dolans.

Scott's resume wasn't barren, he had a great draft record because of Stockton and Malone, and is for some odd reason well know for drafting Howard Eisley and Shandon Anderson. but as the head of a big market franchise this was a new world for him. Secondly you could argue that with two of the greatest players of all-time at their position why could he not put together a team that won a title. Everyone knew that if he was fired here, he had very little options and would end up back in Utah. This was perception and guided his stay here. On the other hand, you fire Walsh and D'Antoni and we all know they will settle somewhere.

As for Walsh it's a completely different situation. When Layden arrived, he came to a situation where there was previous success. Players held the "juice card". His coach had a pre-established view of what could be successful. From that point on he spent the next few years trying to get on the same page with coaches and the owner. Walsh and D'antoni have complete opposite. There is no success here. Dolan has less to fall back on. The players have nothing to fall back on. Walsh and D'Antoni have experienced recent success. If questioned, they can say "what have you won" and actually get away with it. They also are coming in together and we can assume by this, that they are on the same page. It's a completely different situation and these guys hold the "juice card" right now

Layden joined the Knicks after his team went to back to back finals. I recall critics saying that this was a slam dunk by Checketts that he acquired a guy who built a powerhouse team on a shoestring budget and who knows how to draft well. I disagree on Donnie because whether no one wants to admit under Donnie the Pacers suffer in the most recent years. Many critics who thought he was a bad fit for the Knicks also indicated that you could argue that his decisions led to a depleted roster that could be worst than the Knicks he took over. Much blame about the current state of the Pacers have been put on Donnie by both Bird and Nassi. Nassi wanted Bird to take over the franchise fully. Donnie's resume is a little sketchy because his impact on the franchise is pre Larry Brown who claims to have put together those playoff teams. It's lowest point where he was in full control, he hired Isiah Thomas as coach and even gives Thomas the real credit for identifying O'Neal as the move the franchise needed to make. Bird takes credit for Granger. My point is that when he left Indiana Walsh was not in a position of strength, the reason for his departure (the guy was being forced into retirement gracefully). D'Antoni credentials are better at this point because he is coming off playoff teams but as stated there is the Steve Nash question that he must deal with. I think if this team struggles for a length of time, the Steve Nash questions will fly fast and furious. I already seen that D'Antoni has thin skin when he faces criticism. Only time will tell though.

Posted by Pharzeone:

Posted by Bippity10:

Posted by Pharzeone:

Bip, not to pull hairs but I put Layden's resume up against Donnie's and Mike's anytime.
Layden was responsible for drafting two HOF players, acquired talent where no one else even thought about looking. The guy put together a team that went to back to back finals. Neither Donnie nor Mike have anything like that on their resume. So this can't be about resumes rather than results. And when I refer to results I mean making money for the Dolans.

Scott's resume wasn't barren, he had a great draft record because of Stockton and Malone, and is for some odd reason well know for drafting Howard Eisley and Shandon Anderson. but as the head of a big market franchise this was a new world for him. Secondly you could argue that with two of the greatest players of all-time at their position why could he not put together a team that won a title. Everyone knew that if he was fired here, he had very little options and would end up back in Utah. This was perception and guided his stay here. On the other hand, you fire Walsh and D'Antoni and we all know they will settle somewhere.

As for Walsh it's a completely different situation. When Layden arrived, he came to a situation where there was previous success. Players held the "juice card". His coach had a pre-established view of what could be successful. From that point on he spent the next few years trying to get on the same page with coaches and the owner. Walsh and D'antoni have complete opposite. There is no success here. Dolan has less to fall back on. The players have nothing to fall back on. Walsh and D'Antoni have experienced recent success. If questioned, they can say "what have you won" and actually get away with it. They also are coming in together and we can assume by this, that they are on the same page. It's a completely different situation and these guys hold the "juice card" right now

Layden joined the Knicks after his team went to back to back finals. I recall critics saying that this was a slam dunk by Checketts that he acquired a guy who built a powerhouse team on a shoestring budget and who knows how to draft well. I disagree on Donnie because whether no one wants to admit under Donnie the Pacers suffer in the most recent years. Many critics who thought he was a bad fit for the Knicks also indicated that you could argue that his decisions led to a depleted roster that could be worst than the Knicks he took over. Much blame about the current state of the Pacers have been put on Donnie by both Bird and Nassi. Nassi wanted Bird to take over the franchise fully. Donnie's resume is a little sketchy because his impact on the franchise is pre Larry Brown who claims to have put together those playoff teams. It's lowest point where he was in full control, he hired Isiah Thomas as coach and even gives Thomas the real credit for identifying O'Neal as the move the franchise needed to make. Bird takes credit for Granger. My point is that when he left Indiana Walsh was not in a position of strength, the reason for his departure (the guy was being forced into retirement gracefully). D'Antoni credentials are better at this point because he is coming off playoff teams but as stated there is the Steve Nash question that he must deal with. I think if this team struggles for a length of time, the Steve Nash questions will fly fast and furious. I already seen that D'Antoni has thin skin when he faces criticism. Only time will tell though.

I don't disagree with you on any of your points, but again it's a different situation on a few fronts. First, if you are in a GM or above position for 21 years there is a pretty good chance that you are going to have bad drafts and down years, but if you look at his full body of work the guy has put up good results and is highly respected for a reason.

But the issue is about who owns the "juice card" right now. Again, when Layden came to the Knicks, he was coming to an organization with over a decade of winning. The fan base was not ready to accept anything different. They still had Patrick and the crew. But when Patrick left and our decline was beginning, this decline was unacceptable to the owner and to the fan base and Layden had a difficult time dealing with this. He had little or no leverage. As for Walsh and D'Antoni it's completely different. They are coming into a losing situation in which 2 GM's and a myriad of coaches have failed doing it one way. Now they come in and TOGETHER can say you have to do it my way or else you will continue the heck you've been throught the last few years. Add in the fact that there resumes are solid and in the short run there isn't much you can argue with. Now of course time will destroy that. The pressure will build(as you can see already) with a notoriously impatient and irrational owner and the fanbase and they will have to deal with it. But coming in they are in a much better situation and have more leverage than Isiah and Layden ever had. Layden had to win and be succesful at all costs or die. These guys just have to show improvement over rock bottom.

Posted by knicks1248:

The idea AGAIN is not to have a three year window. Juice card or water pistol, it doesn't matter. You can't keep changing players and coaches every 2/3 years and expect results. What happens if this front office group looks bleak in 2 years with back to back 30+ seasons. having made a trade here and there to complement a system that will eventually get get squash if it doesn't work. Then you bring in a new coach/gm, players/trainers. I mean stabilty equals success. I strongly believe that we have enough talant to contend in the east/nba. Put them in the right situation and they can succeed. We will watch Larry Brown this season who's roster isn't as talanted as ours and see if he is out of touch or out of his mind with is philosphy for todays game.

Mike may be a players coach, but he wont hesitate to bench a player for good including his stars. The biggest baby's on this team is Curry, bury, zach, our three best players. I think if zach and steph ( if there still here) buy in, we will have a lot of success.

Knicks: YOu win, when you can win. The coach does his best to get the most out of his roster. Of course Mike could careless about a three year window. But there are two points to make. First of all, it isn't about talent with this roster. This team has had enough talent to make the playoffs for the past 3 years and hasn't. It isn't the coaches, its' the makeup of the team. It's Walsh's job to get the right mix to turn this around. He has been here 4 months and his entire front office staff was just completed. Anyone that was expecting much movement this early, just wasn't going to get it. Mike is going to expect time to learn his team. Trust me, he won't need much time. Most coaches can figure it out in before the season starts.

Posted by Bippity10:

Posted by knicks1248:

The idea AGAIN is not to have a three year window. Juice card or water pistol, it doesn't matter. You can't keep changing players and coaches every 2/3 years and expect results. What happens if this front office group looks bleak in 2 years with back to back 30+ seasons. having made a trade here and there to complement a system that will eventually get get squash if it doesn't work. Then you bring in a new coach/gm, players/trainers. I mean stabilty equals success. I strongly believe that we have enough talant to contend in the east/nba. Put them in the right situation and they can succeed. We will watch Larry Brown this season who's roster isn't as talanted as ours and see if he is out of touch or out of his mind with is philosphy for todays game.

Mike may be a players coach, but he wont hesitate to bench a player for good including his stars. The biggest baby's on this team is Curry, bury, zach, our three best players. I think if zach and steph ( if there still here) buy in, we will have a lot of success.

Knicks: YOu win, when you can win. The coach does his best to get the most out of his roster. Of course Mike could careless about a three year window. But there are two points to make. First of all, it isn't about talent with this roster. This team has had enough talent to make the playoffs for the past 3 years and hasn't. It isn't the coaches, its' the makeup of the team. It's Walsh's job to get the right mix to turn this around. He has been here 4 months and his entire front office staff was just completed. Anyone that was expecting much movement this early, just wasn't going to get it. Mike is going to expect time to learn his team. Trust me, he won't need much time. Most coaches can figure it out in before the season starts.

I think on the offensive side of the ball we have a lot more talant then the suns, as a matter of fact we stack up against any team in the league offensivly. I ask the question do we have any thing close to this, but all i really see is nash getting everyone easy shots, and as talanted as he is, it's Mike d that plays a 70% role in how that team plays. You put any of those guy's on the suns in a dffirent uni (marion) watch there stats drop.