Posted by izybx:

Posted by Allanfan20:

Iraq, and a number of other middle eastern countries.

So when are we going to get this oil? I mean its the only reason that we went to war right? Does Bush have it in his backyard?

Posted by oohah:

As I said before, whether or not someone is prolife or pro choice is fundamental. I am pro life, and its a strong factor. As far as whether I want to stay in Iraq until we "kill everbody there" or "the country goes bankrupt", I would instead stay until the country is stable enough to live. I would want to leave with as much honor as we can perserve at this point. And that to me means living victorious. Ill vote for Mccain because he served in the military, as did I. I believe that he will be able to help balance the budget by eliminating pet programs and pork spending, rather than raising taxes on any Americans. Mccain has a realistic enery plan that involves going nuclear in a big way, rather than a vague "green" energy plan. I dont want a liberal in office who will have any more government programs that will take money from people who work and give it to people who do nothing to help themselves. Theres a million reasons, I guess it comes down to Im conservative, and Obama is liberal. So I wont vote for him.

Unfortunately these tenets of the conservative party of the present day fly in the face of reality. Government spending is up under the conservatives, as are pork barrel spending and 85 billion dollar corporate welfare bailouts, the deficit was on its way out when Bush arrived now it is worse than ever.

Iraq was stable before we got there, dictatorship or not. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis are dead because we invaded. The country is about as unstable as possible. Things were pretty bad in Iraq before but now they are worse. Most people choose alive or over dead.

Izybx, I refuse to align myself with parties because they only really serve to polarize the people into 2 groups that can be manipulated. They don't really stand for anything. There is no document that can describe what they stand for.

But let's look at what Bush and his neocons ran on and promised us:

Restore honor to the white house? What?! Anyway, that didn't happen.
Cut spending: Didn't happen, in fact we spent more and are in greater debt than ever.
Protect our Nation?: 0 for 2.
Stabilize the middle east?: Nope.

The Bush administration has delivered on nothing! The country is in shambles on so many fronts it is crazy. Arguing this is kind of like arguing that the Knicks have been good over the same period of time.

So the question is: More of the same, or see if we can try a different approach? I think McCain is more of the same. That works real nice for the rich people and the military contractors, but for the rest of us trying to buy homes and make decent livings it isn't so hot.

Abortion is really a non-issue. Roe V Wade is not going anywhere. Abortion and gay marriage are ways to distract us from things that are really important, like the economy and thousands of our young men dying in Iraq for no reason, and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis dying as well.

oohah

Oooh aaah what the he-ll is going on? I've been agreeing with you on everything lateley. I want to go back to the days when we heavily disagreed and I was right and you were wrong.

Posted by izybx:

Posted by Allanfan20:

Iraq, and a number of other middle eastern countries.

So when are we going to get this oil? I mean its the only reason that we went to war right? Does Bush have it in his backyard?

Posted by loweyecue:

Posted by izybx:

Posted by Allanfan20:

Iraq, and a number of other middle eastern countries.

So when are we going to get this oil? I mean its the only reason that we went to war right? Does Bush have it in his backyard?

1. Who pays for the war -- Taxpayers
2. What happens to Iraq after we have destroyed the fabric of life over there? -- Major reconstruction and rebuilding
3. Who gets to do the reconstruction and rebuilding? -- Haliburton and similar organizations
4. How does Iraq pay Haliburton for the reconstruction? -- with OIL MONEY
5. How else would big oil profit from Iraq? -- The US govt made "pacts" that only US based oil companies will be allowed to drill and explore
6. And who is paying to for all this agin? --- That's right, you are.

Now what part of this did you not understand?

Where is the oil you asked?? Well, its Iraq, stupid.

Okay so, I should vote for Obama because there is a vast right wing conspiracy to steal Iraqs oil and give the money to Haliburton? oKaY!

Were not talking about the Bush administration, were talking about Mccain. Before this election Mccain had a strong reputation as an Independant. Now of course, he is the second coming of Bush. I have done my own research and come to my own opinion. You feel a certain way about Iraq, I feel another. Its fundamental. You vote for the guy who will pull us out of Iraq, Ill vote for the guy who will win the war.

I'm pro Obama but I agree with you. It's so easy for people to dismiss another person's values and belief system by simply saying that are stupid or ignorant, instead of thinking maybe they just come from a different point of view. IT's just an easy way to dismiss the other point of view and erase any chance for real debate. It also prevents a person from truly examining their own beliefs and the things they believe in. If you go back and read this thread it truly has more generalizations about groups of people than any thread in the history of the internet(well maybe not, but it has a lot of them). Some people scream for everyone to be open minded and yet they can't see how closed their own are. Both parties have scr-ewed us, and both parties have done well for us. I can understand a leaning one way or another. I can understand a strong belief in one direction. But the sheer vitriol and borderline hatred towards someone that thinks differently has to be representative of something else.

I tend to lie in the middle with a Liberal leaning. I think the Republicans have taken the poor and minorities for granted. They have assumed they will not get these votes and have simply ignored groups that need help, going with the notion that if you just leave it alone, all is equal. I understand the premise, but I do not think it works. I think the Democrats have a more balanced view of the economy, their policies truly provide a boost for those starting a step behind. That being said, the far left influence scares me as much as the far right. In this political season I've talked to a lot of people with far more knowledge and intelligence than I will ever have. With a much greater grasp of the issues than I do as well. But even they, don't realize how far they have drifted away from Capitalism and into the Socialist(and some dare say Communist) point of view. Is this a trend, or has it always been this way? Worldwide there is a trend towards Capitalism from most Socialist nations and a movement towards Socialism in most Capitalist nations. Movement is inevitable and not necessarily a bad thing. But some people have really drifted and I'm not sure they even realize it. Being relatively new to the world of politics, I don't know if US politics are always this way or if this is something new

Posted by TheGame:

I'm pro Obama but I agree with you. It's so easy for people to dismiss another person's values and belief system by simply saying that are stupid or ignorant, instead of thinking maybe they just come from a different point of view. IT's just an easy way to dismiss the other point of view and erase any chance for real debate. It also prevents a person from truly examining their own beliefs and the things they believe in. If you go back and read this thread it truly has more generalizations about groups of people than any thread in the history of the internet(well maybe not, but it has a lot of them). Some people scream for everyone to be open minded and yet they can't see how closed their own are. Both parties have scr-ewed us, and both parties have done well for us. I can understand a leaning one way or another. I can understand a strong belief in one direction. But the sheer vitriol and borderline hatred towards someone that thinks differently has to be representative of something else.

I tend to lie in the middle with a Liberal leaning. I think the Republicans have taken the poor and minorities for granted. They have assumed they will not get these votes and have simply ignored groups that need help, going with the notion that if you just leave it alone, all is equal. I understand the premise, but I do not think it works. I think the Democrats have a more balanced view of the economy, their policies truly provide a boost for those starting a step behind. That being said, the far left influence scares me as much as the far right. In this political season I've talked to a lot of people with far more knowledge and intelligence than I will ever have. With a much greater grasp of the issues than I do as well. But even they, don't realize how far they have drifted away from Capitalism and into the Socialist(and some dare say Communist) point of view. Is this a trend, or has it always been this way? Worldwide there is a trend towards Capitalism from most Socialist nations and a movement towards Socialism in most Capitalist nations. Movement is inevitable and not necessarily a bad thing. But some people have really drifted and I'm not sure they even realize it. Being relatively new to the world of politics, I don't know if US politics are always this way or if this is something new

Bippity10,

I agree with you. I am going vote for Obama but not simply because he is black or smarter than McCain. Bush has pretty much followed the principles of capitalism and let corporations run themselves with little to no regulation. Plus, he has rolled back the taxes on the rich under the theory that the rich create jobs so letting them keep more money will create jobs for everyone (which is a BS economic theory IMO that has repeatedly failed). Capitalism is great but the fundamental flaw in capitalism is greed and if you let greedy people run free with no controls, they just become more greedy and do things that mess up the economy as a whole. Every once in awhile, capitalism needs a jolt of socialist change to essentially knock the rich over the head and remind them that they have obligations to the nation beyond stuffing their own pockets. This is the same thing that happened with Clinton after the Reagan/Bush years of letting companies run free. Every now and then, you need a president to come in and add more socialism to the economy to keep greed in check. Otherwise the whole system spirals out of control, as it is about to do now. Obama is going to bring more control of companies, he is going to redistribute a little wealth from the top 1% of the nation and put in back in the hands of the middle class (and really unless you make more than $250K, you will take home more money with Obama than McCain), and he is going to force the oil and automotive industry to start spending money to actually develop the technologies of the future that will stop our dependence on oil. Plus, he is going to end this stupid war in Iraq that has cost us a TRILLION dollars and thousands of lives, both US and Iraqi. I think these are the changes that we need, and while McCain has shifted his talk in a hope of getting elected, I have far more confidence that Obama actually intends to make the changes needed for America at this time. Maybe in 10 years, we can shift back to a more capitalistic view, but right now we need someone to take control of this economy before we end up in a deep recession.

[Edited by - thegame on 19-09-2008 04:50]