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Wow this is what the Knicks are selling to the fans?
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4949
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8/23/2008  5:34 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by martin:
Posted by BRIGGS:

Same putrid team + Chris Duhon and a hurt rookie? Im sure theyll be lining up for tickets with fat Curry and Rabdolph running up and down and letting every last offensive player take free layups

please tell me what you would have done? Trade your assets at their low point.



I wouldve taken Jerryd Bayless at pick 6 and used every asset I had including Lee Nate cash to grab that Pacer or Portland pick to acquire Anthony Randolph. Chris Duhon would NOT be here and Zach Randolp would be gone.

It all comes down to money BRIGGS, and there is no way the Knicks are gonna just throw money away anymore. If they can play, then let them earn what they can, until the contracts run out. I am all for that.
I'll never trust this' team again.
AUTOADVERT
DarkKnicks
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8/23/2008  6:41 PM
Posted by Paladin55:


Agree with you about watching Chandler and Gallinari, however you also want to see how the returning Knicks respond to a new coach and system. I'm very interested in seeing how Nate, Lee, and Crawford fit in. We might be looking at a season of Survivor, MSG.

Agree with you about Randoph and Curry. Hopefully Randolph is gone before the season begins, but I think it may be hard to get value for Curry. What I want to see is how D'Antoni deals with these guys if they don't attempt to fit in and play the kind of ball he wants. I would not want these two getting time at the expense of Chandler/Gallinari/Lee.
First of all, I dont consider Nate nor Lee good enough to lead us to anything nor make a difference. And anyway, we will have to trade them out of here sooner than later since we are supposedly going through that mystic 2010 plan, and give 8-10 million dollars to Lee is not the best way to achieve that plan. So Im not really expecting much of that.

About the Randolph/Curry thing, that issue is what worries me the most. If supposedly we did not trade Randolph because we felt he was a his lowest trade value right now, then, there are 2 posibles scenarios assuming they are going to be our starting froncout.
-They suck (as expected), so their trade value would be even worse, if that is possible. We would have another soap opera with them complaining about people being "unfair" to them. Also we would have wasted some playing and development time for Gallinari while Lee keeps doing the same.
-D'Antoni is a genius and they (surprisingly) play well, which means we win 40 games in an incredible best case scenario, so Gallinari and Lee get even less playing time. If this happens, which is very unlikely, we would have risen their trade value a bit, but lost the chance to get good pick. And anyway... this is not realistic.

I said before that I understand how difficult is to overcome this mess that is Isiah's legacy, but if we dont get rid of Randolph or Curry, our cap situation will keep being terrible, and Gallinari and Lee wont play as much as we probably would like to see. I dont care about Randolph or Curry being at their lowest trade value at this very moment: I dont care what we get for them as long as they are expiring contracts, 2nd rounds or whatever that does not hurt our cap. This is a critical problem for our future, and there is not anything that leads me to believe there is some chance Curry or Zach wont be here next season. thats why I said I can not find acceptable to "do nothing" at this point. Walsh was hired to "do something" regarding our cap situation. If finally something happens I will eat my words at that very moment.
Posted by Paladin55:

As Walsh has already said- this team needs a shot blocker. Even if Randolph and Curry were to respond offensively, there is still no chance that they will play any D. They are about as effective in stopping players from attacking our rim as the Maginot Line was in keeping the Nazi army and tanks from penetrating into France. What big man can we find who will block shots?

One other thing- how do you know that D'Antoni will not make adjustments to his "system" based on the players the Knicks have?

I just don't know how many deals this team can make given the talent we have to trade and contract issues, but there is still time, and maybe Walsh has some ideas he will throw out to D'Antoni when he gets back from China.
You are right, I dont know. Maybe Im being way too much sceptic... but I dont have reasons to think otherwise from his coaching career so far.

Already explained I dont care what we get in return for our "cap killers", as long as we dont give 1st round picks nor worsen our cap. I just want something (well) done regarding it. We are the New York Knicks!
BRIGGS
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8/23/2008  6:56 PM


--->nash owes as much to d'antoni as vice versa. i agree we need a point and hope we can get jennings or whoever the best available point guard is in the draft or on the market, that is the most important piece

Nash has won more games than any other NBA player over the last 8 years

--->randolph in this system should put up nice numbers, enough to inflate his value and maybe get some draft picks in return. we'll see.

When we acquired Randolph for Steve Franchise and Frye what were his numbers with Portland and do you think he will improve on them?

RIP Crushalot😞
nixluva
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8/23/2008  8:56 PM
Walsh and D'Antoni have to believe that they can get this team to play better and is that really a stretch? D'Antoni is so much more of a coach than Isiah was last year, when he wasn't even calling plays anymore, that you can fully expect that the team will be better. HOW MUCH? No one knows, but I do think Waltoni are right to think they can raise the value of these guys with a better season under Mike.

Regarding Nash, he was a good NBA player before D'Antoni and an MVP with him. Let's not try to minimize that fact. It's not like Nash had this all figured out and came to Mike and said hey you know if we play this way we can win 50+ games easy. Do you really think Nash didn't benefit greatly from being under Mike's direction? They knew they needed a PG who could execute his system and they got THE perfect guy to do it. He's not the only guy, but he was certainly tailor made for that style of play.
4949
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8/23/2008  9:02 PM
Let's say we picked up Nash. It doesn't necessarily mean he'd do the same for us. Remember, he wasn't as good with the Mavs, as we was with the Suns.
I'll never trust this' team again.
NYKBocker
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8/23/2008  10:42 PM
Man. I guess it is true. You cannot re-build in NY. Fans want instant gratification.

Walsh is doing this right. He is sticking to his guns and will not sell low. Please have patience. It's only been 1 summer.
Bippity10
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8/23/2008  10:47 PM
Posted by NYKBocker:

Man. I guess it is true. You cannot re-build in NY. Fans want instant gratification.

Walsh is doing this right. He is sticking to his guns and will not sell low. Please have patience. It's only been 1 summer.

This impatience is the exact reason why Isiah traded for Marbs and Curry and Zach. He gave into the impatience and went after best available even if it didn't follow his plan. He did this to take the heat off.

So far Walsh seems to be oblivious to this storm.
I just hope that people will like me
NYKBocker
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8/23/2008  11:11 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by NYKBocker:

Man. I guess it is true. You cannot re-build in NY. Fans want instant gratification.

Walsh is doing this right. He is sticking to his guns and will not sell low. Please have patience. It's only been 1 summer.

This impatience is the exact reason why Isiah traded for Marbs and Curry and Zach. He gave into the impatience and went after best available even if it didn't follow his plan. He did this to take the heat off.

So far Walsh seems to be oblivious to this storm.


I hope you are right bip.
4949
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8/24/2008  12:14 AM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by NYKBocker:

Man. I guess it is true. You cannot re-build in NY. Fans want instant gratification.

Walsh is doing this right. He is sticking to his guns and will not sell low. Please have patience. It's only been 1 summer.

This impatience is the exact reason why Isiah traded for Marbs and Curry and Zach. He gave into the impatience and went after best available even if it didn't follow his plan. He did this to take the heat off.

So far Walsh seems to be oblivious to this storm.

I never thought of it this way. So maybe isiah was worth something afterall, by being an example of what not' to do.
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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8/24/2008  12:17 AM
Posted by NYKBocker:

Man. I guess it is true. You cannot re-build in NY. Fans want instant gratification.

Walsh is doing this right. He is sticking to his guns and will not sell low. Please have patience. It's only been 1 summer.

Auh yes my friend. No need to worry about that. It appears that Donnie is well aware and well ahead of our new plan. Patience is the key. I knew it from the start. I knew it when Layden was in charge and been preaching it ever since. And it only took about eight years for my prayers to be answered.
I'll never trust this' team again.
Pharzeone
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8/24/2008  1:01 AM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by NYKBocker:

Man. I guess it is true. You cannot re-build in NY. Fans want instant gratification.

Walsh is doing this right. He is sticking to his guns and will not sell low. Please have patience. It's only been 1 summer.

This impatience is the exact reason why Isiah traded for Marbs and Curry and Zach. He gave into the impatience and went after best available even if it didn't follow his plan. He did this to take the heat off.

So far Walsh seems to be oblivious to this storm.

The Marbury trade was not an impatience move. It was a move that the owner and fans wanted. The rumor still remains that Isiah completed the trade that Layden worked out and was on his desk when he was fired. Dolan wanted Marbury in the worst way and Layden wasn't able to deliver it to him fast enough. You guys underestimate the influence that Dolan had on the Checketts, Layden and Isiah teams. If the Garden is dark in April and May next year, either Donnie is going to stick to his words and leave or he will be just another puppet as well because Jimmy won't stay quiet.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
nixluva
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8/24/2008  2:30 PM
I don't know about how long Dolan had Steph in his mind. PHX wasn't looking to trade Steph until after the start of the season didn't go as planned and they started to reassess the team direction. They weren't thinking about any changes the month before the season started cuz they gave Steph that huge contract extension that we're paying for now. If they had trading him in mind why give him all that cash and then trade him in the 2nd month of the season?

IF the Knicks wanted him so bad and PHX wanted to get rid of him that bad a deal could've been struck in the offseason before they gave Steph all that money. Think about it. How could they know they'd be able to move such an albatross contract so soon? They had to know that it put them in a bind, since no other team except us would even think of taking on all that contract along with Penny's. That doesn't sound like a sound plan to build a contender to me. It sounds like they got lucky that Isiah wanted to make a splash and was able to convince Dolan to take on all that money.
Pharzeone
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8/24/2008  7:20 PM
Posted by nixluva:

I don't know about how long Dolan had Steph in his mind. PHX wasn't looking to trade Steph until after the start of the season didn't go as planned and they started to reassess the team direction. They weren't thinking about any changes the month before the season started cuz they gave Steph that huge contract extension that we're paying for now. If they had trading him in mind why give him all that cash and then trade him in the 2nd month of the season?

IF the Knicks wanted him so bad and PHX wanted to get rid of him that bad a deal could've been struck in the offseason before they gave Steph all that money. Think about it. How could they know they'd be able to move such an albatross contract so soon? They had to know that it put them in a bind, since no other team except us would even think of taking on all that contract along with Penny's. That doesn't sound like a sound plan to build a contender to me. It sounds like they got lucky that Isiah wanted to make a splash and was able to convince Dolan to take on all that money.

Knicks tried to acquire Marbury from the T-Wolves but did not have the goods to get him and NJ got him instead. Was much talk about on sports radio just ask Charlie Ward about it. It was reported in every NY media outlet on a regular basis everytime the T-Wolves would play the Knicks. Dolan didn't need to be convince to pay Marbury.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Nalod
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8/24/2008  10:56 PM
Did I miss the start of the season?
4949
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8/24/2008  11:04 PM
Posted by DarkKnicks:
Posted by Paladin55:


Agree with you about watching Chandler and Gallinari, however you also want to see how the returning Knicks respond to a new coach and system. I'm very interested in seeing how Nate, Lee, and Crawford fit in. We might be looking at a season of Survivor, MSG.

Agree with you about Randoph and Curry. Hopefully Randolph is gone before the season begins, but I think it may be hard to get value for Curry. What I want to see is how D'Antoni deals with these guys if they don't attempt to fit in and play the kind of ball he wants. I would not want these two getting time at the expense of Chandler/Gallinari/Lee.
First of all, I dont consider Nate nor Lee good enough to lead us to anything nor make a difference. And anyway, we will have to trade them out of here sooner than later since we are supposedly going through that mystic 2010 plan, and give 8-10 million dollars to Lee is not the best way to achieve that plan. So Im not really expecting much of that.

About the Randolph/Curry thing, that issue is what worries me the most. If supposedly we did not trade Randolph because we felt he was a his lowest trade value right now, then, there are 2 posibles scenarios assuming they are going to be our starting froncout.
-They suck (as expected), so their trade value would be even worse, if that is possible. We would have another soap opera with them complaining about people being "unfair" to them. Also we would have wasted some playing and development time for Gallinari while Lee keeps doing the same.
-D'Antoni is a genius and they (surprisingly) play well, which means we win 40 games in an incredible best case scenario, so Gallinari and Lee get even less playing time. If this happens, which is very unlikely, we would have risen their trade value a bit, but lost the chance to get good pick. And anyway... this is not realistic.

I said before that I understand how difficult is to overcome this mess that is Isiah's legacy, but if we dont get rid of Randolph or Curry, our cap situation will keep being terrible, and Gallinari and Lee wont play as much as we probably would like to see. I dont care about Randolph or Curry being at their lowest trade value at this very moment: I dont care what we get for them as long as they are expiring contracts, 2nd rounds or whatever that does not hurt our cap. This is a critical problem for our future, and there is not anything that leads me to believe there is some chance Curry or Zach wont be here next season. thats why I said I can not find acceptable to "do nothing" at this point. Walsh was hired to "do something" regarding our cap situation. If finally something happens I will eat my words at that very moment.
Posted by Paladin55:

As Walsh has already said- this team needs a shot blocker. Even if Randolph and Curry were to respond offensively, there is still no chance that they will play any D. They are about as effective in stopping players from attacking our rim as the Maginot Line was in keeping the Nazi army and tanks from penetrating into France. What big man can we find who will block shots?

One other thing- how do you know that D'Antoni will not make adjustments to his "system" based on the players the Knicks have?

I just don't know how many deals this team can make given the talent we have to trade and contract issues, but there is still time, and maybe Walsh has some ideas he will throw out to D'Antoni when he gets back from China.
You are right, I dont know. Maybe Im being way too much sceptic... but I dont have reasons to think otherwise from his coaching career so far.

Already explained I dont care what we get in return for our "cap killers", as long as we dont give 1st round picks nor worsen our cap. I just want something (well) done regarding it. We are the New York Knicks!

Darkknicks, it's about not' jeopardizing the cap anymore then has already been done. It's about waiting for contracts to run out, or get close to running, so we can possibly buyout some of them at the end of the second year. It's about protecting our cap for the future, so we can be in a position to make pitches for better talent. I mean superstar talent. Layden, Dolan and isiah never figured that out. It's one of the simplest things in the whole world. A kid' can figure that out.

There isn't going to be any blockbuster deals, not for the next two years at least, because if we want a superstar, it's not going to happen with what we have now. We need to open up the cap, to free it. We have already started to try and build with the draft. It's now time to start building with free agents, with available money that we will' have. Go nowhere trades are out of the picture. Duhon, Roberson and the fact that he didn't try to move one of these huge contracts is a clear sign of that. starbury doesn't matter anymore because it's his last year, so it doesn't matter either way, if he stays or goes. Whether it's off the books or not, it helps for when we do' start getting off the books.
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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8/24/2008  11:10 PM
Posted by BRIGGS:



--->nash owes as much to d'antoni as vice versa. i agree we need a point and hope we can get jennings or whoever the best available point guard is in the draft or on the market, that is the most important piece

Nash has won more games than any other NBA player over the last 8 years

--->randolph in this system should put up nice numbers, enough to inflate his value and maybe get some draft picks in return. we'll see.

When we acquired Randolph for Steve Franchise and Frye what were his numbers with Portland and do you think he will improve on them?

Forget about nash or nash clones right now. Our future starts after two more years.
I'll never trust this' team again.
4949
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8/24/2008  11:18 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by NYKBocker:

Man. I guess it is true. You cannot re-build in NY. Fans want instant gratification.

Walsh is doing this right. He is sticking to his guns and will not sell low. Please have patience. It's only been 1 summer.

This impatience is the exact reason why Isiah traded for Marbs and Curry and Zach. He gave into the impatience and went after best available even if it didn't follow his plan. He did this to take the heat off.

So far Walsh seems to be oblivious to this storm.

The Marbury trade was not an impatience move. It was a move that the owner and fans wanted. The rumor still remains that Isiah completed the trade that Layden worked out and was on his desk when he was fired. Dolan wanted Marbury in the worst way and Layden wasn't able to deliver it to him fast enough. You guys underestimate the influence that Dolan had on the Checketts, Layden and Isiah teams. If the Garden is dark in April and May next year, either Donnie is going to stick to his words and leave or he will be just another puppet as well because Jimmy won't stay quiet.

That's quite a bold statement there. We know dolan had a bad influence, but let's see what Donnie can do before we boot him out the door already first. This is the first time I heard of layden setting up this deal about starbury. You called it a rumor and then made it sound like it was fact. Which is it and where's the source?

isiah got over four years to prove himself. Donnie should get just as much time.
I'll never trust this' team again.
nixluva
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8/24/2008  11:23 PM
Posted by Pharzeone:
Posted by nixluva:

I don't know about how long Dolan had Steph in his mind. PHX wasn't looking to trade Steph until after the start of the season didn't go as planned and they started to reassess the team direction. They weren't thinking about any changes the month before the season started cuz they gave Steph that huge contract extension that we're paying for now. If they had trading him in mind why give him all that cash and then trade him in the 2nd month of the season?

IF the Knicks wanted him so bad and PHX wanted to get rid of him that bad a deal could've been struck in the offseason before they gave Steph all that money. Think about it. How could they know they'd be able to move such an albatross contract so soon? They had to know that it put them in a bind, since no other team except us would even think of taking on all that contract along with Penny's. That doesn't sound like a sound plan to build a contender to me. It sounds like they got lucky that Isiah wanted to make a splash and was able to convince Dolan to take on all that money.

Knicks tried to acquire Marbury from the T-Wolves but did not have the goods to get him and NJ got him instead. Was much talk about on sports radio just ask Charlie Ward about it. It was reported in every NY media outlet on a regular basis everytime the T-Wolves would play the Knicks. Dolan didn't need to be convince to pay Marbury.

You keep missing the point. PHX had every intention of keeping Steph until they had a poor start to the season and rethought things.
http://www.insidehoops.com/marbury-signs-100803.shtml

"Oct 8, 2003
The Phoenix Suns have given Stephon Marbury a contract extension

The Phoenix Suns announced today that the club has signed All-Star guard Stephon Marbury to a multi-year contract extension. Per team policy, terms of the deal are not disclosed.

During the 2002-03 season Marbury sparked an incredible turnaround of the Suns organization including an improbable return to the NBA Playoffs. "

They just gave him a brand new contract extension in October and then traded him January.

http://www.insidehoops.com/colangelo-suns-010604.shtml

They struggled, changed the coach and then did an about face. They needed to clear cap space and try to remake the team and this was their shot to do that. Until Isiah came along with a mandate from Dolan to get back to the playoffs, PHX was screwed, cuz no one was gonna take those contracts off their hands if the Knicks didn't.
Pharzeone
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8/25/2008  1:43 AM
I don't get your point. Dolan has been seeking to acquire Marbury before he began a Suns, before he became a Net. Marbury announced that he was going to Georgia Tech on MSG, attended Knick practices, etc. Many people believed that Marbury would eventually become a Knick because of his link to the organization. Starbury was Isiah mandate from Dolan.

"Colangelo confirmed that Knicks president Isiah Thomas, who recently replaced the fired Scott Layden, began pursuing Marbury within 24 hours after he took the job there."

Arizona Republic, January 5, 2004 "Suns Deal Marbury, Hardaway to the Knicks"
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Bippity10
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8/25/2008  10:32 AM
Was Marbury the only rush decision we made in the last few years? Marbs, Curry, Jamal, Zach were all peddled and paid like stars to create a buzz. None of them were true stars, but each time they were acquired it bought Zeke more time and got the fan base excited. We knew they wouldn't amount to winning, but each time we acquired one the fan base was excited(in general) and the pressure was off. Now we seem to want Walsh to make similar decisions.

the guy has been here 4 months and as of recently was still hiring coaches and front office staff. These moves are as important as signing players. So yes, the guy has had a very busy summer. The players will be next. You just have to give the guy more time than 4 months. There will be no more "best player available" deals. Instead we will patiently build a team that fits D'Antoni's long term vision. Will Walsh be successful? I don't know. The jury is out. But at least the guy has a legitimate plan.
I just hope that people will like me
Wow this is what the Knicks are selling to the fans?

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