But you are not getting my point. It's not a disagreement between me and sebstar. I'm not saying "suburban people want this or that", I know how well hip-hop sells in the suburbs, and I'm not disputing that. I'm saying that's what Cablevision thinks, and you don't seem to be disagreeing. What is real to you and me doesn't matter for the Knicks, because we're not the owners. I'm speaking about the mindset of Dolan, and the general viewpoint of conservative businessmen. Also, young people are more liberal than older people on the whole. Young people aren't paying for tickets, though, it's their more conservative parents.

Read what the Daily News article says. It says you cannot expect things to change as long as Cablevision owns the team. You think I care if guys have tats and chains? Shoot, AI is one of my favorite players. You're not reading what I'm writing.

It's not about what I think, or what you think, or sebstar, or ANY Knick fan thinks. It's about what Dolan thinks, and that is the point. He cares about corporate environment. That's his idea of progress. You don't dispute that, so I'm getting through, obviously. Stop trying to think this is me arguing on Dolan's behalf. I'm trying to get people to realize the futility of getting upset about the Knicks. You people will always be upset. It is counter-productive. Either accept and enjoy the mediocre Knicks, find a different team, or boycott Cablevision completely. Anything else, you will make yourself nuts.

Again, don't equate the mindset of Dolan with the realities of sales and marketing. Pfizer, for instance, sell Viagra but they will not advertise in magazines with what they consider overly sexual content (like Cosmopolitan) because Pfizer is run by extremely conservative people. Johnson and Johnson is equally, if not more, conservative and won't put their ads on "racy" TV shows. You'd think they would make money off those things, and they would, but they care more about their corporate environment first.

And, yeah, I work for AOL/Time-Warner. I know how corporations run. It ain't pretty, kids.

Posted by ICEMAN:

def and reb you got some good points, but i will give the nod to sebstar in this thread. to make it short and sweet, to say dolan can build a safe product but make it exciting and capable of winning is a insult to New york and the rest of the NBA. to put all exciting talented basketball players in one tiny stereotype is a joke, it's pratically a insult to the lebron James Tim duncans and Kevin garnetts of the world. Dog go to any suburb and you will see Tupac, biggie, eminem, MJ and Iverson on most childrens walls in the bed room and the parents love a exciting athletic winning team.

there is not a more surburban team than the sacremento kings, you can t tell me they want to see doleac and van horn over Tatto wearing Bibby and case catching Webber.

the reason the Nets dont sell is not because of white or black or athletes or a safe product it's because of one thing, Location,location,location,
You ever retry to drive home from there on a wednesday night???

And New york Fans whether white or black care less than you think about safe marketable white guys from the suburbs, the suburbs want to Win just like the hood.

my bad defandreb i am questioning the hypicrosy of that mentality but i don't think it belongs to you.

Posted by DefAndReb:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/103657p-93819c.html

This is dead on. What have I been telling you people? This is a corporate culture. If you expect Layden and Dolan to be concerned with championships or fan-favorites, you will always bang your head against the wall.

Either get with the corporate program and accept their methods, root for another team, or come back when Cablevision sells the team, several years from now. Layden is not clueless. He knows exactly what he's doing, which is what Dolan wants him to do, and that's what matters most in corporate culture, doing what the boss wants. You are the clueless ones, who don't understand that we are owned by corporations and are subject to their rules. Your ideas of sports being about winning are outdated and outmoded. It's about product. And Dolan wants a family-friendly, suburban-style product that wins more than it loses, but is not a true contender (too much financial risk involved in trying to build one.) That's what he's getting from Layden, and he is happy about it.

If you want something different, you'll have to go elsewhere. But stop whining like schoolgirls about it, already. That won't change anything. Layden is performing to Dolan's expectations, so unless the Knicks miss the playoffs again, Layden will not be going anywhere.

Once you accept your corporate masters, life will become easier for you. You will not get upset about these decisions. You will grow to see them for what they are. It's about running a stable organization with a safe product.

I understand Layden's position and have no real complaints with his toeing the corporate line and all. But I am still not sure of the explanation or Dolan's position of the corporate culture Knicks.

Corporations are out to make money. As much as possible. The Knicks, MSG, the whole Cablevision package is about making more money, and in this case, leveraging one venue for the next. What I don't understand is how a no-risk, no-bad-rap Knicks team helps this goal. Sure, a few more suburbanites may buy tickets and shirts and whatever, but how is having a mediocre team inflating the value of MSG/Cablevision? Does it make their negotiating leverage greater as does the Yankees? Not that I can tell. Does it sell those high priced corporate suites? Don’t think so. More long-term season ticket holders? No. KVH, Houston and whomever are not selling jerseys. No one is out to buy $5 beers for a team you can barely cheer for.

I just don’t get it. How does a media-safe sports team help the overall corporation?

I wonder what David Stern is thinking. His biggest market is trying not to make a big push to better itself (and in turn, the league). I guess David can ride LA for a few more years until the Cav (*choke*) get better.

Why do people think MSG won't get new fans at the garden when old ones stop renewing their season tickets? The waiting list was pretty long ,so now many will have a chance to sit their fannies in the garden AND Dolan knows that!

I'm talking about his yr Ice, we picked up vanhorn and lampe and sweetney with the upside of F.Williams . This is why Dolan doesn't want to re-build from scratch he knows fans love pro ball and enough people out their will come to the games. We are talking millions of people in the mecca and to them a night in the garden is a night on the town!

Ice stop being so ignorant, your idea of avg fan, don't mean bustas from around your way, I'm talking people who got money!