Anytime, newyork! LOL

Layden deserves more credit
By: Waleed Aly
Date: 07/31/03
No matter what happens to the New York Knicks' roster there seems to always be a common response: "Fire Layden". Knicks GM Scott Layden has taken on the role of scapegoat for all that goes wrong with the Knicks.


The recent trade of Latrell Sprewell for Keith Van Horn is no different. Newspapers and fans everywhere have expressed their resentment towards Layden -- yet again. But in New York, can we ever let the judgment of fickle Knicks fan base go unquestioned?

At first glance the deal may seem like it was just another step in building the "New York Jazz." However, Van Horn brings more than just a Mormon connection.

1. Van Horn averaged more rebounds then Kurt Thomas had last year (7.1). Say what you want about Van Horn being soft, but the Knicks can sure use more rebounding.

2. Sprewell's strengths have always been his quickness and his ability to get to the basket, but as he gets older, those skills are only going to deteriorate. His field goal percentage has also been plummeting every year for the past four seasons reaching career low (40.2 percent) last year.

3. Putting Van Horn in the line up will give the Knicks an exceptionally large front court with Thomas at 6-foot-10, McDyess (assuming he plays) at 6-10 and Van Horn at 6-10. This can cause some serious match up problems for opposing teams.

4. As far as Van Horn disappearing in the clutch, I remember a Nets-Celtics playoff game (at which I happened to be in attendance, vehemently rooting against the Nets) where (much to my dislike) Van Horn hit two huge 3-pointers in the waning minutes of the game to seal the victory and eventually the series for the Nets. Bottom line, the Nets would not have made it to the finals without Van Horn that year.

Layden has brought in a natural small forward and added size to the team. Why are we so quick to just assume that because Layden carried it out it is a horrible decision. Layden, much to the disbelief of popular opinion, has not been as bas as everyone thinks. After the Shandon Anderson and Howard Eisley move (which, I admit, was just horrible) he went and traded for possibly one of the best power forwards in the east in Antonio McDyess. He also drafted Maciej Lampe and Mike Sweetney who both appear to be promising.

So before we go and just add Van Horn to the list, "things Layden should be fired for," let's give Van Horn a chance. I mean, after all, this is New York – and hey "ya never know."

I'm not sure a coach needs to have won a championship for me to take his assesment of a player into account. Merely looking for a balanced viewpoint on KVH, and what his strong points might be. Since I have no bias for or against him, I simply look for the strong points. Any coach would have to do the same. Focusing on the negatives won't bring out the confidence in a player anyway.

Well, of course I take player opinions into account also, (and since I really don't know much about Calipari's motives, I'll take your view in as well), but opinions are based on specific pov's too...So the questions I would have would be, what specifically did Jason and Iverson say about KVH?

Ultimately, it won't matter, as he'll be on the floor in an actual game, and then we'll have some real juicy facts to throw around...All Keith's former stats as a Net and a Sixer will become instantaneously moot after his first month as a Knick.

Optimism runs strong with me until proven otherwise. I'll wager that the kid might have a thing or two to prove EXACTLY because of the talk that's going around in NY and on these threads. These guys read (sometimes), and surf the net too.

NYC might do wonders for the man, and ultimately the real proof (or disproof) has to wait until...What is it, Oct 30th?

Man stop hating and start relating, the guy (KVH) is a pro and when he hits the court in reg season he knows all eyes will be on him and he will step up to the challenge! This is the third time around in the east(NJ, PHILLY, NY) and as they say the third time around is a charm.

Posted by HARDCOREKNICKSFAN:

Posted by playa2:

Man stop hating and start relating, the guy (KVH) is a pro and when he hits the court in reg season he knows all eyes will be on him and he will step up to the challenge! This is the third time around in the east(NJ, PHILLY, NY) and as they say the third time around is a charm.

Okay, only if you stop fantasizing and start realizing that ya boy Van Horn does not have an "S" on his chest (and if he did, it wouldn't mean Super). You think he's gonna blow up the spot or something? LOL We'll see what the season brings when the time comes.

You mention that this is his third time in the East like being on 3 teams in 3 yrs is something positive. They also say "3 strikes, and you're out".

Hardcore, since you're new to Playa's ways, lemme tell you how it's going to be:

IF KVH does have a good season (let's call that 18pt/9rb/3ast pg) we'll never hear the end of how he predicted it.

If KVH has a mediocre season (let's say 14/6/1) he'll say he was right, but that

• 'the system held him back' or
• 'houston took too many shots' or
• 'ward didn't get him enuff touches'

bottom line, from one who's STILL AMAZED at what Playa can come up with, is that you'll never pin him down. He may not know about bball, but his forum game is TIGHT!

Posted by playa2:

Oh Necromancer, I must have pulled on one of ya wires this morn, Don't try to make up garbage about me look at yourself for a min. OK DONE!

nah, man. you know i usually ignore you, but just felt like addressing you today.

I'll go back to ignoring you on Monday!

As for Van Horn.

He doesn't make us any more of a championship team. He adds 15.7mil extra. He is a PF who can play SOME SF NOT a natural SF. Y do u think Philly traded him cuz Kenny Thomas was out hustling him at PF and they brought in Glenn Robinson who IS a natural SF. So Van Horn now add to the 9,10,11 PFs we have on the roster. Van Horn is a good scorer & rebounder & brings size. But I guess we will have to wait and see if any of that calculates into us getting wins.

Come on--- several key components of the Knicks you mentioned *RETIRED*. It's not our fault we lost LJ for nothing.

Ewing was getting old, plain and simple, at least he had the guts to try to get something for him. If you look at the trade back then, it certainly didn't look half bad.

1) Rice was coming off a championship season--- he was a player the Knicks coveted for years... and was supposed to be the first true SF on the Knicks. His addition was supposed to move Sprewell into 35mpg super-sub. Oh yeah, Rice was supposed to become the best SF we had since Bernard King. (Remember how the papers lauded this tradEe?!!) Yeah, there were some questions about his numbers falling, but everyone attributed them to being 3rd option behind Kobe/O'Neal.

2) Longley was a year removed from being a 3-time NBA champion center and one of the few guys in the league who had the size to give Shaq problems. His excellent passing w/ Jordan and the boys would have been perfect for the Knicks' perimeter players (Rice, Sprewell, Houston)

3) Knight had recently been a quality player for the Lakers... looked like his scrappy play was infection-- he was an energy 7 footer--- and was supposed to give us an added element of size and hustle.

Well... we all know what happened. Rice got hurt, and Longley retired. Knight regressed into the stiff he is today. Rice turned out not to be a good fit, especially with Camby being injured often. LJ began to break down.

Oh, yeah... Childs started to break down and baloon into the chubby bastard the Raptors had (and released)... and the Nets signed and released. We haven't gotten to the Mark Jackson trade yet.

Of course, we look at what Ewing/Dudley did after the trade... NOTHING. I guess we traded nothing for some guys who came as damaged goods or simply didnt work out.

Now... let's look at the Childs/Jackson-Bogues deal. I agree that it was kind of weak. But Childs was already beginning to deteriorate... he hurt us that year in the playoffs, though. So much for veteran leadership--- but it's the retirement of Longley and the absence of LJ that really put us in a downward spiral.

Getting Harrington for the pretty much useless Eric Strickland was a MAJOR coup at the time. Harrington had spent some quality time in Houston putting up big numbers in Barkley's absence... and I guess on Vancouver, they felt he had higher potential. All in all, it was like getting a 1st round quality player for next to nothing. Good deal. (and we love those Georgetown guys!)

Signed Kurt Thomas for bargain price. BIG WIN!

Next season, we sign Spoon. Not the worst thing, cuz 10ppg, 10rpg guys are tough to find, plus he was playoff tested and shot a pretty good FG%. However, others might argue about the size thing. However, his lack of height was not good... but statistically, he wasn't a liability.

Trading Rice for Eisley/Anderson seemed like a pretty decent deal. We improved defensively at swingman and PG... plus we found two starter-quality players for the price of a deteriorating former all-star. Eisley was fairly fresh of leading the Jazz to the NBA finals 2 years earlier during Stockton's extended absense. Anderson was also recently removed from giving the Bulls big problems in the finals (tho he had probs fitting in on Houston). It's wasn't horrible (at the time). Eisley, however, did not start well w/ the Knicks, neither did Anderson.

Re-signing Houston for the enormous contract extension when they couldn't find the money to bring back Ewing for one more season was insane. I think he had just disappeared in the playoffs against the Raptors. Almost didn't seem right, but at the time, what do we do, lose him for nothing? Maybe he should have gotten a 1 mil raise, not the big long deal he has now. This I can certainly say was a bad decision.

The season did not go well. JVG left the team, Camby missed a ton of games, 'Spoon and everyone else on the roster seemed to get hurt--- the pieces added did not fit.

Then BAM... we trade Camby + pick for McDyess, later 1st rounder (Frank Williams), and what would be Lampe. This was a pretty decent trade--- we got a higher skilled player for Camby... and supposedly got our PG of the future. (debatable).


So... when you look at the long term issues of the team, I see a couple of things:

Ewing AGED Quickly. He was worth nothing to the team. yeah, we could have let his and Dudley's contracts run out. However, that would have been imprudent, considering we had just made it to the NBA finals w/o any contribute from Ewing-- we figured any addition would help us return to the finals. And still, we almost did it, getting eliminated in the conference finals.

We could not have predicted the quick demise of LJ-- we assumed he'd be playing out till the end of his contract. We also could not have predicted Longley would have aggravated the injury which would cause him to retire. These two lost players really hurt us badly. You can't really blame that on layden.

With LJ, Houston, Sprewell, Thomas, Ward, and Camby (all of whom were supposed to be major contributors), we're already pretty gosh darned near the cap. If you let Ewing/Dudley's contracts retire, you still have NO CAP MONEY TO SPEND.

major wins (at the time): Kurt Thomas's contract, trading for Harrington, grabbing Lampe

good trades at the time (which didn't pan out): Ewing trade... the Rice/Bogues trade for Eisley/Anderson, Camby/Jackson/FW/Lampe for McDyess/Hilario trade

bad moves: trading Childs + pick for Jackson (WAAAAAY TOO MUCH), re-signing Houston to this massive contract, extending Rice's contract, drafting Weis

So... as I keep repeating... the big setbacks really came from LJ and Longley a while back (and technically--- Ewing aging). The injuries to McDyess and FW before the start of the season really set us back and made last season a waste. And of course, the Sprewell injury provided further problems.