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Here is a trade that makes the Knicks better
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Bonn1997
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6/18/2008  11:27 AM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by TMS:

we won't be in any position of strength til 2011... call it assinine or whatever else, but it's reality nonetheless... u can call cap flexibility retarded, moronic or whatever other derogatory terms you wanna throw in there, but the only moronic thing i've seen around here is this team continuing to make roster moves w/no thought to the longterm ramifications on the cap over the past decade... judging from Walsh's quoted mission statement since he got here seems to me he's of the same mind frame... but hey, what the hell does Walsh know about building successful NBA franchises.
how much cap space did Boston have last season?

how many former knicks are gms on other teams and will trade us a superstar for next to nothing?

what boston did isn't a blueprint to build a champion.
your right there... before Boston (and Detroit) the only blueprint for winning a title was to DRAFT a superstar franchise player and build around him. That how EVERY title had been won previously.

However look around the league at the number of all star players that have been traded, many in mere salary dumps. Its almost silly when you think about it. This notion of giving up assets (draft picks) to clear cap space for player that have like a 1.5% chance of leaving their team is so foolish I just cant get my head around it. Meanwhile you have all star players left and right being traded and moved around, many for expiring contracts to save a losing franchise money.

Why we arent looking to load our roster full of these guys is beyond me. MAybe people are so jaded by Isiah the thought of paying guys freaks them out. This is NY.. we have never cared about payroll, only wins.

And back to the blueprint there are now 2 teams that won titles by TRADING for players. Where is the franchise that turned everything around with cap space?
Boston built up a lot of assets through the draft that enabled them to make the KG trade. You're ignoring the context that led up to the trade if your only conclusion is that they won a title by trading for players.


[Edited by - bonn1997 on 06-18-2008 11:28 AM]
AUTOADVERT
bitty41
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6/18/2008  11:37 AM
Posted by loweyecue:
Posted by Elite:

im sorry but trading our #6 just to get rid of Randolph is ASININE... completely retarded.

Let D'Antoni raise his value.

we need the player we get at #6

Yep

I agree D'Antoni was brought here b/c he is able to maximize a player's talent. If this was just some waiting game with us keeping our fingers crossed for top picks and big free-agent signings then why would Walsh waste the money and effort on hiring someone like D'Antoni. Let D'Antoni earn his coaching chops by working with whatever is left come Fall.
fishmike
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6/18/2008  11:46 AM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Boston built up a lot of assets through the draft that enabled them to make the KG trade. You're ignoring the context that led up to the trade if your only conclusion is that they won a title by trading for players.


[Edited by - bonn1997 on 06-18-2008 11:28 AM]
He did? What were the assets? Al Jefferson is very good. Who else? Telfair? Ryan Gomes? Wally? Ratliff? All-star players get traded every. Its common place. Thats what we should do. We can afford to have more on our roster than any other team. What an advantage.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
crzymdups
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6/18/2008  11:52 AM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by djsunyc:

common thread on both those teams are high lottery picks.

detroit: billups (3), sheed (4), rip (7)
boston: kg (5), ray (4), pierce (10)

[Edited by - djsunyc on 06-18-2008 09:37 AM]

and really exceptional defense, in spite of being cobbled together as FAs.

actually, wasn't KG defensive player of the year? so was big ben.


this is why I keep rooting for the JOneal trade - he's the only guy out there I can see having that kind of impact for us.

Wait, exceptional defense matters in order to win a championship?

Funny how there is no exception to the rule about defense when it comes to championships but D'Antonio nuthuggers want to harp on about cap space.

Rivers was never given credit as a defensive guru - it comes down to players. Riley wasn't known as a defensive guru in LA, either. Coaches can change based on their personnel. Bottom line, if we can get the right personnel in here the coach can be changed easily enough.

I had a problem with the D'Antoni hire at first because it just seemed so out of touch with reality - we have so far to go before the coach even matters. But I don't mind it now because D'Antoni can at least pump up the stats of some of our hard to move players. As long as we get the right personnel in here, the coach can come seoond. If we start making ridiculous personnel decisions to suit the coach, then I'll be furious, but I'll wait and see first.
¿ △ ?
TrueBlue
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6/18/2008  11:58 AM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Boston built up a lot of assets through the draft that enabled them to make the KG trade. You're ignoring the context that led up to the trade if your only conclusion is that they won a title by trading for players.


[Edited by - bonn1997 on 06-18-2008 11:28 AM]
He did? What were the assets? Al Jefferson is very good. Who else? Telfair? Ryan Gomes? Wally? Ratliff? All-star players get traded every. Its common place. Thats what we should do. We can afford to have more on our roster than any other team. What an advantage.

pick # 7 of the 2007 draft
Gerald Green first round draft pick of 2005
Future 2009 first round draft pick

Who's counting though surely not you...


When you rebuild one of the main things to do is acquire as many assets as possible.... namely draft picks.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
islesfan
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6/18/2008  12:06 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Boston built up a lot of assets through the draft that enabled them to make the KG trade. You're ignoring the context that led up to the trade if your only conclusion is that they won a title by trading for players.


[Edited by - bonn1997 on 06-18-2008 11:28 AM]
He did? What were the assets? Al Jefferson is very good. Who else? Telfair? Ryan Gomes? Wally? Ratliff? All-star players get traded every. Its common place. Thats what we should do. We can afford to have more on our roster than any other team. What an advantage.

Who is our 20/10 22 year old that we can trade? You can downplay it all you want but he was the centerpiece of the Celtics offer and rightly so. The guy is an absolute stud. Who else was offering a player of that caliber for KG?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
islesfan
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6/18/2008  12:10 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by djsunyc:

common thread on both those teams are high lottery picks.

detroit: billups (3), sheed (4), rip (7)
boston: kg (5), ray (4), pierce (10)

[Edited by - djsunyc on 06-18-2008 09:37 AM]

and really exceptional defense, in spite of being cobbled together as FAs.

actually, wasn't KG defensive player of the year? so was big ben.


this is why I keep rooting for the JOneal trade - he's the only guy out there I can see having that kind of impact for us.

Wait, exceptional defense matters in order to win a championship?

Funny how there is no exception to the rule about defense when it comes to championships but D'Antonio nuthuggers want to harp on about cap space.

Rivers was never given credit as a defensive guru - it comes down to players. Riley wasn't known as a defensive guru in LA, either. Coaches can change based on their personnel. Bottom line, if we can get the right personnel in here the coach can be changed easily enough.

I had a problem with the D'Antoni hire at first because it just seemed so out of touch with reality - we have so far to go before the coach even matters. But I don't mind it now because D'Antoni can at least pump up the stats of some of our hard to move players. As long as we get the right personnel in here, the coach can come seoond. If we start making ridiculous personnel decisions to suit the coach, then I'll be furious, but I'll wait and see first.

Riley's championship Lakers teams always played good hard defense. His Knicks and Heat teams obviously took defense to another level but they also didn't have the firepower that LA did. Doc played for Riley and hired a defensive genius in Tom Thibodeau.

D'Antonio wants his players. His players don't play defense because he doesn't think like that. He thinks that good defense means outscoring your opponent. In this town that should and will be a problem.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
bitty41
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6/18/2008  12:13 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Boston built up a lot of assets through the draft that enabled them to make the KG trade. You're ignoring the context that led up to the trade if your only conclusion is that they won a title by trading for players.


[Edited by - bonn1997 on 06-18-2008 11:28 AM]
He did? What were the assets? Al Jefferson is very good. Who else? Telfair? Ryan Gomes? Wally? Ratliff? All-star players get traded every. Its common place. Thats what we should do. We can afford to have more on our roster than any other team. What an advantage.

Who is our 20/10 22 year old that we can trade? You can downplay it all you want but he was the centerpiece of the Celtics offer and rightly so. The guy is an absolute stud. Who else was offering a player of that caliber for KG?

His studlyness led them right into a 22 win season.
TrueBlue
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6/18/2008  12:16 PM
Posted by bitty41:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Boston built up a lot of assets through the draft that enabled them to make the KG trade. You're ignoring the context that led up to the trade if your only conclusion is that they won a title by trading for players.


[Edited by - bonn1997 on 06-18-2008 11:28 AM]
He did? What were the assets? Al Jefferson is very good. Who else? Telfair? Ryan Gomes? Wally? Ratliff? All-star players get traded every. Its common place. Thats what we should do. We can afford to have more on our roster than any other team. What an advantage.

Who is our 20/10 22 year old that we can trade? You can downplay it all you want but he was the centerpiece of the Celtics offer and rightly so. The guy is an absolute stud. Who else was offering a player of that caliber for KG?

His studlyness led them right into a 22 win season.


You mean in a similar way KG current DPOY led the Wolves to a 27win team a couple seasons prior?
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
martin
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6/18/2008  12:17 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by djsunyc:

common thread on both those teams are high lottery picks.

detroit: billups (3), sheed (4), rip (7)
boston: kg (5), ray (4), pierce (10)

[Edited by - djsunyc on 06-18-2008 09:37 AM]

and really exceptional defense, in spite of being cobbled together as FAs.

actually, wasn't KG defensive player of the year? so was big ben.


this is why I keep rooting for the JOneal trade - he's the only guy out there I can see having that kind of impact for us.

Wait, exceptional defense matters in order to win a championship?

Funny how there is no exception to the rule about defense when it comes to championships but D'Antonio nuthuggers want to harp on about cap space.

Rivers was never given credit as a defensive guru - it comes down to players. Riley wasn't known as a defensive guru in LA, either. Coaches can change based on their personnel. Bottom line, if we can get the right personnel in here the coach can be changed easily enough.

I had a problem with the D'Antoni hire at first because it just seemed so out of touch with reality - we have so far to go before the coach even matters. But I don't mind it now because D'Antoni can at least pump up the stats of some of our hard to move players. As long as we get the right personnel in here, the coach can come seoond. If we start making ridiculous personnel decisions to suit the coach, then I'll be furious, but I'll wait and see first.

Riley's championship Lakers teams always played good hard defense. His Knicks and Heat teams obviously took defense to another level but they also didn't have the firepower that LA did. Doc played for Riley and hired a defensive genius in Tom Thibodeau.

D'Antonio wants his players. His players don't play defense because he doesn't think like that. He thinks that good defense means outscoring your opponent. In this town that should and will be a problem.

Marion, Raja Bell, Barbosa. Sometimes it's the players you are given.
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Bonn1997
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6/18/2008  12:19 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by bitty41:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Boston built up a lot of assets through the draft that enabled them to make the KG trade. You're ignoring the context that led up to the trade if your only conclusion is that they won a title by trading for players.


[Edited by - bonn1997 on 06-18-2008 11:28 AM]
He did? What were the assets? Al Jefferson is very good. Who else? Telfair? Ryan Gomes? Wally? Ratliff? All-star players get traded every. Its common place. Thats what we should do. We can afford to have more on our roster than any other team. What an advantage.

Who is our 20/10 22 year old that we can trade? You can downplay it all you want but he was the centerpiece of the Celtics offer and rightly so. The guy is an absolute stud. Who else was offering a player of that caliber for KG?

His studlyness led them right into a 22 win season.


You mean in a similar way KG current DPOY led the Wolves to a 27win team a couple seasons prior?
Wow, I don't think I could have come up with a better reply!

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 06-18-2008 12:20 PM]
djsunyc
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6/18/2008  12:21 PM
walsh said in his initial press conference that he usually hires a coach and gets him the players he wants.

so in this case, d'antoni doesn't have to change to fit his roster (at least not after this season). the players acquired are those that will fit with d'antoni (and not vice versa).

the hope is that walsh gets good enough players. he can get good players, he has shown that in the past.

and d'antoni, when given his type of players, can win at a high level. he has shown that too.

the only question really is how good these players will be. that is to be determined.
bitty41
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6/18/2008  12:23 PM
You mean in a similar way KG current DPOY led the Wolves to a 27win team a couple seasons prior?

The lowest win total Minny had in recent years was 32 but thats not really my point. My point is that talent like Jefferson is just wasted unless Minny's management is going to aggressively pursue other elite talent otherwise who gives a shyt that Minny has Jefferson because they won't win jack. Mchale threw in the towel spin all you want but the records speak for themselves. Mchale is a lazy manager Danny Ainge was a lazy manager until the lightbulb went on that waiting around for great things to come your way isn't going win you ****. Hence the deals for Ray Allen and KG.
islesfan
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6/18/2008  12:31 PM
Posted by bitty41:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Boston built up a lot of assets through the draft that enabled them to make the KG trade. You're ignoring the context that led up to the trade if your only conclusion is that they won a title by trading for players.


[Edited by - bonn1997 on 06-18-2008 11:28 AM]
He did? What were the assets? Al Jefferson is very good. Who else? Telfair? Ryan Gomes? Wally? Ratliff? All-star players get traded every. Its common place. Thats what we should do. We can afford to have more on our roster than any other team. What an advantage.

Who is our 20/10 22 year old that we can trade? You can downplay it all you want but he was the centerpiece of the Celtics offer and rightly so. The guy is an absolute stud. Who else was offering a player of that caliber for KG?

His studlyness led them right into a 22 win season.

KG's studliness led them to 32 and 33 win seasons just prior to that.

What's your point?
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
bitty41
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6/18/2008  12:33 PM
I guess bitty called herself being transparent as usual trying to protect Zach who has been unjustiably criticized for putting up numbers on a bad team and feels it applies to Big Al. You have to consider the player, the context, and his body of work, instead of trying to protect a PERSONAL AGENDA!

This isn't even about Zach as it is about the state of sports fans who think their knowledge of Pro Sports is more superior then it really is. Btw when I'm trying to protect my agenda (Zach Randolph) I won't need to hide behind innuedo I'll say it right out.
islesfan
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6/18/2008  12:33 PM
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by djsunyc:

common thread on both those teams are high lottery picks.

detroit: billups (3), sheed (4), rip (7)
boston: kg (5), ray (4), pierce (10)

[Edited by - djsunyc on 06-18-2008 09:37 AM]

and really exceptional defense, in spite of being cobbled together as FAs.

actually, wasn't KG defensive player of the year? so was big ben.


this is why I keep rooting for the JOneal trade - he's the only guy out there I can see having that kind of impact for us.

Wait, exceptional defense matters in order to win a championship?

Funny how there is no exception to the rule about defense when it comes to championships but D'Antonio nuthuggers want to harp on about cap space.

Rivers was never given credit as a defensive guru - it comes down to players. Riley wasn't known as a defensive guru in LA, either. Coaches can change based on their personnel. Bottom line, if we can get the right personnel in here the coach can be changed easily enough.

I had a problem with the D'Antoni hire at first because it just seemed so out of touch with reality - we have so far to go before the coach even matters. But I don't mind it now because D'Antoni can at least pump up the stats of some of our hard to move players. As long as we get the right personnel in here, the coach can come seoond. If we start making ridiculous personnel decisions to suit the coach, then I'll be furious, but I'll wait and see first.

Riley's championship Lakers teams always played good hard defense. His Knicks and Heat teams obviously took defense to another level but they also didn't have the firepower that LA did. Doc played for Riley and hired a defensive genius in Tom Thibodeau.

D'Antonio wants his players. His players don't play defense because he doesn't think like that. He thinks that good defense means outscoring your opponent. In this town that should and will be a problem.

Marion, Raja Bell, Barbosa. Sometimes it's the players you are given.

Well as the GM for part of his time there and as a head coach with great influence on player procurement, they weren't really given to him as much as they were what he wanted. As was the system that he wanted to play.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TrueBlue
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6/18/2008  12:34 PM
Posted by bitty41:
You mean in a similar way KG current DPOY led the Wolves to a 27win team a couple seasons prior?

The lowest win total Minny had in recent years was 32 but thats not really my point. My point is that talent like Jefferson is just wasted unless Minny's management is going to aggressively pursue other elite talent otherwise who gives a shyt that Minny has Jefferson because they won't win jack. Mchale threw in the towel spin all you want but the records speak for themselves. Mchale is a lazy manager Danny Ainge was a lazy manager until the lightbulb went on that waiting around for great things to come your way isn't going win you ****. Hence the deals for Ray Allen and KG.


You're the one who's spinning and 32 wins is really no better than 22 and Al Jefferson will make it easier for Mchale to build around that's the point. He doesn't have to go searching for a power forward and he probably won't have to have a dominant big man playing next to Al.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
islesfan
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6/18/2008  12:38 PM
Posted by bitty41:
You mean in a similar way KG current DPOY led the Wolves to a 27win team a couple seasons prior?

The lowest win total Minny had in recent years was 32 but thats not really my point. My point is that talent like Jefferson is just wasted unless Minny's management is going to aggressively pursue other elite talent otherwise who gives a shyt that Minny has Jefferson because they won't win jack. Mchale threw in the towel spin all you want but the records speak for themselves. Mchale is a lazy manager Danny Ainge was a lazy manager until the lightbulb went on that waiting around for great things to come your way isn't going win you ****. Hence the deals for Ray Allen and KG.

And that point has nothing to do with Minnesota getting back an elite talent in the KG trade.

I don't think McHale is a very good GM but that was only the first season after acquiring Jefferson. Let's see what he does in the next 2, assuming he gets that chance, before we judge him. If nothing else, he got the best possible package for KG which included a 22 year old 20/10 player. It's not like the Gasol trade.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
martin
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6/18/2008  12:39 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by martin:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by djsunyc:

common thread on both those teams are high lottery picks.

detroit: billups (3), sheed (4), rip (7)
boston: kg (5), ray (4), pierce (10)

[Edited by - djsunyc on 06-18-2008 09:37 AM]

and really exceptional defense, in spite of being cobbled together as FAs.

actually, wasn't KG defensive player of the year? so was big ben.


this is why I keep rooting for the JOneal trade - he's the only guy out there I can see having that kind of impact for us.

Wait, exceptional defense matters in order to win a championship?

Funny how there is no exception to the rule about defense when it comes to championships but D'Antonio nuthuggers want to harp on about cap space.

Rivers was never given credit as a defensive guru - it comes down to players. Riley wasn't known as a defensive guru in LA, either. Coaches can change based on their personnel. Bottom line, if we can get the right personnel in here the coach can be changed easily enough.

I had a problem with the D'Antoni hire at first because it just seemed so out of touch with reality - we have so far to go before the coach even matters. But I don't mind it now because D'Antoni can at least pump up the stats of some of our hard to move players. As long as we get the right personnel in here, the coach can come seoond. If we start making ridiculous personnel decisions to suit the coach, then I'll be furious, but I'll wait and see first.

Riley's championship Lakers teams always played good hard defense. His Knicks and Heat teams obviously took defense to another level but they also didn't have the firepower that LA did. Doc played for Riley and hired a defensive genius in Tom Thibodeau.

D'Antonio wants his players. His players don't play defense because he doesn't think like that. He thinks that good defense means outscoring your opponent. In this town that should and will be a problem.

Marion, Raja Bell, Barbosa. Sometimes it's the players you are given.

Well as the GM for part of his time there and as a head coach with great influence on player procurement, they weren't really given to him as much as they were what he wanted. As was the system that he wanted to play.

So let's take a step back. D'Antoni's players do play defense, although the coach was handcuffed by Nash and Amare. There is a point made that Amare wasn't pushed enough to play better defense but none to say that D'Antoni's teams did not play defense. I am also not sure that Mike would have wanted the team to trade away all of those first round picks, so the line of "great influence on player procurement" is diluted. He got Banks and didn't use him, big deal.
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fishmike
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6/18/2008  12:39 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:

pick # 7 of the 2007 draft
Gerald Green first round draft pick of 2005
Future 2009 first round draft pick

Who's counting though surely not you...


When you rebuild one of the main things to do is acquire as many assets as possible.... namely draft picks.
Is Gerald Green in the league anymore? And draft picks? Did you know every team gets a draft pick every year? Wow... I guess I wasnt counting. Thanks!

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
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