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Ah, now there's the Zach Randolph we know and love...
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Nalod
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6/14/2008  3:00 PM
Zach needs to be a convicted felon to enach contract violation.

Spree had the back of the players union and the players. It was about keeping it a players league even when wrong.

We rewarded spree for being an ass by giving him a 65mil contract!
And he remained an ass.

If you can play in this league the league will keep you. Its business, just business folks.........

By the way, why have we not heard from Cuban regarding ref fixes? Cuz he is an owner first and foremost.

NFL eats signing bonuses and then can basically fire your ass when they want to. NBA is a different animal altogether.
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nixluva
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6/14/2008  3:02 PM
No one really ever wants to see a trade not work, so there are going to be those who take the positive view and hope for the best. I don't like to see our team dragged thru the mud by association with bad characters. We all knew Zach had a bad history and that the chance for a bad episode existed. All we could hope for was that he matured and tried to change his ways.

I still don't believe that he's now untradeable, cuz there seems to always be a coach or GM out there who thinks he can reach a problem player. If the rumors are true maybe Philly is in that frame of mind. Also other teams tend to view the problem players they have as worse. We have to wait and see what Walsh can get done in that regard. Moving Zach was gonna be hard no matter what he did, this only adds to it a bit, but really it's the 50 mil that teams worry about the most.
djsunyc
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6/14/2008  3:03 PM
Posted by nixluva:

No one really ever wants to see a trade not work, so there are going to be those who take the positive view and hope for the best. I don't like to see our team dragged thru the mud by association with bad characters. We all knew Zach had a bad history and that the chance for a bad episode existed. All we could hope for was that he matured and tried to change his ways.

I still don't believe that he's now untradeable, cuz there seems to always be a coach or GM out there who thinks he can reach a problem player. If the rumors are true maybe Philly is in that frame of mind. Also other teams tend to view the problem players they have as worse. We have to wait and see what Walsh can get done in that regard. Moving Zach was gonna be hard no matter what he did, this only adds to it a bit, but really it's the 50 mil that teams worry about the most.

i think there's possibly only ONE coach that would want him (and that's cheek and i still highly doubt that)...but even if he wants him, stefanski does not.

knicks are stuck with zach for a while. i think they should release him and eat the $50 mil...but dolan may say no.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 06-14-2008 3:05 PM]
djsunyc
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6/14/2008  3:04 PM
btw, walsh and his 2010 is very unrealistic...i'm not sure why he keep bringing up that season unless he already has some stuff done behind the scenes...
TrueBlue
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6/14/2008  3:07 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

btw, walsh and his 2010 is very unrealistic...i'm not sure why he keep bringing up that season unless he already has some stuff done behind the scenes...

It's unrealistic as you said if he doesn't have trades lined up in the near future. Yes as if we make minimal moves beside taking care of our own, we won't have cap space in 2010.
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newyorknewyork
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6/14/2008  3:15 PM
That's not true. It can most definitely go lower than that. For example, the pick that you get back can be lower than 16 or it could be off the table completely. Also the player you get back can be less of an asset than Reggie Evans. Or maybe you have to give up another young player to get it done.

My point is I am already not willing to give up the #6 in order to trade Randolph and move down 16 spots. Which means if that was the best deal I could get for Randolph, then his value is already below what I am willing to trade. If his value gets lower it doesn't matter because it is already to low for me to want to make the trade.

I am sure you have a limit as to what you would give up to trade Randolph. Yours might be #6, Lee, Chandler, Nate #2 future draft picks but you do have a limit.

How much value does Randolph have with next yrs draft pick and 2 yrs left on his contract that a team could just buy out for an expiring contract? Or depending on if we have a top 6 lottery pick again. How much would the value of Randolph at 2yrs which a team could just buy out and a lottery pick be?
As for waiting until 2011 instead of 2010, take that up with Donnie Walsh who has made it a point on numerous occasions, including his introductory press conference, that he wants to get under the cap by the summer of 2010 so he can be a major player in free agency.

I want that to, but im sure both Walsh just like me doesn't want to overpay in order to get that cap space a yr earlier. Reguardless of what happends with Randolph, 3 yrs from now he will not be on the team. But that #6 pick could be a core player for 10yrs and cap space if it is the goal would be inevitable.

According to you Isiah Thomas is pulling the strings anyway and Walsh is just a puppet. So im suprised your supporting it.
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nyk4ever
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6/14/2008  3:19 PM
I got no problem with the team sending Zach home for the next 3 years, but trading him with the 6th pick who could potentially be a player that we start to build our next team with is mind boggling to me. Let Zach stay home, don't play him and hope that a team wants to deal for him at some point down the road.

If not, sit him for the next 2 years and then buy him out. Big deal.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 06-14-2008 3:20 PM]
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Uptown
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6/14/2008  3:23 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:

I'm still not trading Zach with the 6th pick just to get rid of him, we need the pick.

This pick is very impportant. With D'Antoni here, I dont expect this team to underachieve as they have under Isiah. D'Antoni will get this team to play up to its capabilities which is middle of the pack. That means next year our pick will be in the middle of the first round, completely taking us out of mix for the lotto prospects coming out next year. And dont forget, we dont have our own pick in 2010. So this will be our last lotto pick for a couople of years.

Its more important that we try to move up. We almost need a homerun with this pick.
nixluva
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6/14/2008  3:30 PM
You know despite all the issues here last year Zach still showed that he can put up numbers and to some GM's those numbers might be what they're looking for. I know some of us here are focusing on the fact that he's not a team player and how we lost so many games last year with him still getting his numbers, but it's possible that other coaches and GM's put more blame on Isiah for the losses than on Zach's contributions or lack thereof.

Every year I see deals made with players I thought couldn't easily be moved. Zach is one of those guys and maybe near the top of the list along with Big Snacks. Still you never really know.

I think Walsh and D'Antoni feel they can get this team playing better and thus make some of the players value go back up. This pick is of greater value to me than the need to get rid of Zach or any other dead weight. Unless i'm trading for more picks I don't want to send this one away just to clear cap space and a problem player. I feel someone good is gonna be there at #6 and I don't want to waste that chance.
TMS
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6/14/2008  3:59 PM
Posted by islesfan:
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by islesfan:

Where are those morons who said it couldn't hurt to keep him another year and his trade value wouldn't go lower. Yup, it's all about being a 20 year old 20-10 center.

Im glad you're not running the country because countries with a rogue outlook would handle you like a chump willing to compromise. You don't give in to virulent behaviour/actions--you punish them.

What are you blabbering about now? Funny but it doesn't seem that anybody has punished Zach for his behavior/actions. Not the legal system, the NBA or his team.

Keeping him would be punishing the team and it's fans. Your implausible suggestion to fire him or suspend him for an extended period of time doesn't do anything to change that. Trading him does. Now do you understand the value in trading him? I doubt it.

right, buying him out or sending him to his room w/o supper does nothing at all to benefit the Knicks... unloading his contract would do a lot... i don't get the notion that we can milk some kind of value out of this moron especially when the system he's going to be playing in next year is completely unsuited for his skillset & style of game... cut bait now before the whole ship gets dragged down w/him.
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TMS
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6/14/2008  4:06 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

On a serious note. When you have to give up the #6 lottery pick in order to trade a player and get back Reggie Evens & #16. There value doesn't get any lower then that. Thats the lowest level you can be in terms of a trade.

If thats the case then Id rather buy Randolph out and keep the #6 pick. Id rather have #6 six pick and guranteed cap space in 2011. Then have #16 pick and hope to be able to get cap space by 2010. Or end up trading even more assets(like Lee,Chandler,Nate) in order to get cap space by 2010 with the huge risk that Lebron, Wade only use us to get better deals by there respective teams and we end up trading the #6, Lee, Chandler by packaging them with Crawford &/or Curry &/or Jefferies only to end up with a 2nd/3rd tier free agent.

let's say we hold onto Zach... in order to have the cap space to target any of the guys we would wanna target in 2010 we'd have to get rid of Curry & Jefferies along w/making another move to cull another $5-7 mil off our books (either by not re-signing D Lee or Nate, or trading Jamal for a shorter term deal)... how easy do u think that's gonna be to pull off?

Zach's contract won't be a trade chip until it becomes an expiring a year later if that... would u rather have the chance to target Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Amare, Dirk or wait a year to try a stab at Yao, Parker & a buncha 3rd tier guys?

[Edited by - TMS on 06-14-2008 1:22 PM]
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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6/14/2008  4:08 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by TrueBlue:

I lovin this.

This only confirms posters like TMS, Isles, Bonn, and myself while the rest of you all are wrong.

that's really more important than anything else to you, isn't it?

i'd rather be wrong 100% of the time and see the knicks win. what do you get out of being right on the internet?

You know that whole Internet Bullies vs Trolls thread? ..... ah nevermind.

silence douchebag
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MS
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6/14/2008  4:15 PM
I would do that deal and then do another package to move up involving nate, jamal or balkman and grab the kid from west virginia i have a good feeling about his skillsss
nyk4ever
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6/14/2008  4:34 PM
Posted by MS:

I would do that deal and then do another package to move up involving nate, jamal or balkman and grab the kid from west virginia i have a good feeling about his skillsss

I would gladly do that, just don't want to be giving up picks, we need to start bringing in some good young players. If we can trade Zach with the 6 and manage to get ourselves another pick in the top 8, I will gladly make the trade.
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King1
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6/14/2008  6:06 PM
If you remember this team probably could have made the playoffs had Jamal and David not got hurt 2 years ago. Then we bring Zach in and it falls apart. If you send him home it still goes against the cap. If you can trade him then you have a chance at Bosh, Wade, James, in 2010. If you trade the pick who cares the 6th pick has a better chance of being average than a all star.
TMS
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6/14/2008  6:14 PM
seems like a lot of people are placing a ton of hope into a completely unproven draft pick over targetting legit star players in 2 years time... i don't get the logic there at all.
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crzymdups
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6/14/2008  6:30 PM
Posted by TMS:

seems like a lot of people are placing a ton of hope into a completely unproven draft pick over targetting legit star players in 2 years time... i don't get the logic there at all.

a lotto pick in hand is worth two stars currently under contract for other teams.

i think it's just more realistic to try and build with what we have, take a cap reducing deal if it arises and go from there. putting all our eggs in one basket seems dumb - what is it worth if we sign lebron but have no team to put around him? do we really want to be in the cavs position? i.e. pretty good but nowhere near good enough to win it all?
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CrushAlot
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6/14/2008  6:30 PM
I am not sure if there is a conduct clause for all players. Spreewell choked his coach. It seems like Stern should be looking to put something into the next collective bargaining agreement that would address some of this type behavior. I don't think the Knicks should trade the 6th pick to rid themselves of Zach. I think they should either build him back up on the court or investigate his private life in hopes of making a Micheal Vick type discovery. It is interesting that Zach gets into so much trouble in a place like Portland but stays out of it in NY. I hope that the Knick organization remembers that the 6th pick is a fantastic asset that will turn into a good player. I think targeting 2010 free agents is a good idea. However, there is no way to be sure that the Knicks will be able to sign any of the guys available at that time.
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TMS
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6/14/2008  6:38 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by TMS:

seems like a lot of people are placing a ton of hope into a completely unproven draft pick over targetting legit star players in 2 years time... i don't get the logic there at all.

a lotto pick in hand is worth two stars currently under contract for other teams.

i think it's just more realistic to try and build with what we have, take a cap reducing deal if it arises and go from there. putting all our eggs in one basket seems dumb - what is it worth if we sign lebron but have no team to put around him? do we really want to be in the cavs position? i.e. pretty good but nowhere near good enough to win it all?

it works both ways... there's no way to be sure a #6 pick is going to end up being any good either... it's a matter of preference... i respect people's desire to value a #6 pick absolutely... i just think it's worth our while to unload Zach's deal & trade down in this draft, especially when the draft is all a crapshoot regardless.
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nyk4ever
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6/14/2008  6:52 PM
I think all this talk about trading Zach and a pick is pretty moot anyways. The only team that was even rumored to have interest was the 76ers and Stefanski shot that down pretty quick and rightfully so.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Ah, now there's the Zach Randolph we know and love...

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