Posted by TMS:

Posted by BRIGGS:

Posted by TMS:

BRIGGS showing even more of his classless arrogant side... hey a-hole, don't bash on a forum you've never even bothered to check out to begin with... all the members who post on my forums are good people & though it's a small community everyone's always respectful to each other.

besides, i'm not quite as desperate for internet validation as you are to go to the trouble of creating aliases douchewad... if you don't like my reply how about you go F yourself?

99% of the time I keep to the subject--I don't know why you made a post telling me to post elsewhere--I rarely have trouble with anyone and I have never used a swear word once aimed at an indiviudal. No need to bicker--you go post what you want where you want you are ghost to me.

save the preaching for the one unfortunate enough to call you their significant other, whoever he is.

TMS, all do respect, that was a tad harsh for some internet bickering, no?

Posted by eViL:
Honestly, I rather keep Zach all season and be terrible and get another top 5 pick then trade out of the best draft position that we've had in many years. It's been sickening to watch this team trade away picks that could have led to Brandon Roy, Randy Foye, Rudy Gay, or LaMarcus Aldridge.

ahhh.. the voice of reason. Zach's contract doesnt freak me out. Giving up more talent does. No way we trade down. If Zach cant become a servicable player for us he can sit at home.

Posted by fishmike:

Posted by eViL:
Honestly, I rather keep Zach all season and be terrible and get another top 5 pick then trade out of the best draft position that we've had in many years. It's been sickening to watch this team trade away picks that could have led to Brandon Roy, Randy Foye, Rudy Gay, or LaMarcus Aldridge.

ahhh.. the voice of reason. Zach's contract doesnt freak me out. Giving up more talent does. No way we trade down. If Zach cant become a servicable player for us he can sit at home.

Sit at home and watch top FAs sign elsewhere because he's on our roster in 2010/11. Brilliant.

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by fishmike:

Posted by eViL:
Honestly, I rather keep Zach all season and be terrible and get another top 5 pick then trade out of the best draft position that we've had in many years. It's been sickening to watch this team trade away picks that could have led to Brandon Roy, Randy Foye, Rudy Gay, or LaMarcus Aldridge.

ahhh.. the voice of reason. Zach's contract doesnt freak me out. Giving up more talent does. No way we trade down. If Zach cant become a servicable player for us he can sit at home.

Sit at home and watch top FAs sign elsewhere because he's on our roster in 2010/11. Brilliant.

And let me ask you this since you're asking questions about the history of FA signings: When has a player with about $50 mil left on his contract ever been told to just sit at home? It doesn't happen. Zach is a cancer and we can't keep him on the team for three more years if our goal is to develop a core of good players who play well together.

Posted by BRIGGS:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by BRIGGS:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by BRIGGS:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by BRIGGS:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by BRIGGS:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by BRIGGS:

a scrub and a significantly lower pick. This is like Joe Barry carrol for Kevin Mchale type of stuff. It's NOT like we are opening up cap space for a 28 yO Steve Nash to walk in next year--no--this is to HOPE we can get under the cap in 2 years and then HOPE again a top tier FA will spurn less money to come on to a team with a purged roster.

If we do this deal---we havent changed a bit --The Sixers will take Eric Gordon and he will be a star on their roster and Mo Cheeks will have Randolph playing 20-10 but the way he did when Portland was in the WESTERN CONFERNCE FINALS. Funny thing is about our roster the only two players to get that far was Zach and Malik.

We better really sit back and think about it because this has the potential to bite us just as HARD than ANY trade Isiah has made possibly harder since its a division rival.

When you look at a fans +- of a deal and you see Knick fans mainly on the - side and Philly fans [who are brutal] on a 70% approval side--if you have a smart GM who has worked hard with Rod Thorn willing to go with this and Mo Cheeks who has coached Zach

we are walking into a scker deal

Talk about panic trading to see possible FA room in 2 years.

This has NEVER been done in the NBA no trade is a comp to this--so they better frikin think VERY hard about what they are getting themselves into.

When are you going to adequately show there's significantly less value in gaining two picks between 10-20 vs the 6th pick? You've yet to do it and now you're just scrambling and throwing a temper tantrum.

The deal is moving 6-16 not your made up schmeal. Once you move 6-16 you lose ANY opportunity at

Mayo Bayless Gordon Westbrook Alexander Randolph Lopez--that is huge. You are sliding back to second tier players.

Just look at the talent we LOST by giving up our high lottrey picks--so we should continue the path????

Let's go by our Mock Draft. I'd wager any amount of money you want that CDR will have a greater impact in the NBA than Anthony Randolph.

You like CDR more than Eric Gordon?

No but I think Eric Gordon could be like Clyde Drexler and CDR like Rip Hamilton IMO I'd prefer Eric Gordon over CDR but I'm not going to think there's this extreme degree of separation between the two. Especially when we're talking about dumping EY Winslow.

Eric Gordon Clyde Drexler--ok Ill stop there. I think the concept is simple--the history is there for anyone to see. We have blown solid pick after solid pick in the last 6 years which if executed and used would yield a great young team. The answer--simple--- keep the pick--learn from past mistakes--we want cap space BUT don't overpay for it.

Well it's a matter of you over valuing the 6th pick vs 16 IMO. Dude you don't know everything there is to know about draft prospects no matter how you nailed the Bynum pick from 3yrs ago and a couple picks from previous yrs. It doesn't make you a Guru at anything. I showed you about 15-20 players who have been picked over the past decade practically, who were picked 10 and below proving to be absolute studs. Donnie Walsh picked Danny Granger at 18, we picked Lee at 30. I'd do Zach and 6 for Evans and Lee Granger caliber player all day every day. If Zach is such a stud statistically and we lose on the talent end, well that only assures us of maybe being in a better draft position next yr, which IMO will prove to have more Franchise Caliber talent than this yr's draft. Think outside the box sometimes instead of being in a Briggs Twilight Zone 24/7.

I'll leave Isiah Thomas to think outside the box---he did enough of that to destroy the franchise.


I would keep it simple

Sign David Lee 6 yrs 48mm
Take the BPA with 6
If I can swap Zach Randolph or anyone else I don't want in a reasonable deal--I will do it but I wont panic trade or overpay for cap space.
I want the team to be more aggresive looking at guys who havent faired well on other teams --like a Patrick Obryant etc.. and really check out the SL to see if there are some unrestricted guys who really mesh with what we are doing.
If I cant move anyone--Id like Mike D to work with what is here to make them better--hes good at that.

This has nothing to do with guru or anything else. It's called a smart business plan.

First of all Lee can't sign a 6yr deal unless he became a UFA and I've told you this already. He can sign a 5yr deal extension or accept a QO from us to become a UFA with hopes of getting a richer deal. You also aren't signing Lee for anything less than $50mil. Everything else is a huge Risk or not doable as to what you want to do.

Sign David Lee to whatever the guidelines call for. Im not offering David Lee 10mm$--he's going to have to take 8 and accept it or I would seriously look into trading him.
As for anything else risky trading your number 6 pick and Zach randolph for pick 16 and Reggie evans sounds VERY risky. Lets go to 2006 Pick 6 Branden Roy--aka new generation superstar to be. Pick 16 Rodney Carey--nice looking high flying athlete who has been nothing in the league you also had Rudy gay available. I can go down the line Y-y--is there going to be good players found in round 2 and late 1 yes--but the odds change dramatically as you move down. Moving from 6-16 is a dramatic move. If Mo Cheeks --who coached Randolph longer than he was here[remember zach randolph only played 65 games for the Knicks] If Mo cheeks thinks its a good deal--then maybe it is--for Philly? Isnt it risky to give a 20-10 26 YO PF and your high lottery pick to a team already better than you? I think the slate has to be clean for Zach--this whole gig by Isiah was brutal. Home fans always think every player sckls

according to many everyone scks crawford nate curry zach lee--the whole team

and now you think outside the box--lets say somehow we pull off cap space in 2010 --what players do we have to surround a top tier FA? lebron james has more money than he knows what to do with money is NOT going to motivate guys like Kobe MJ or Lebron--winning does. and if we haev a no talent purged roster--they are not coming here--the 5% chance that we may haev had anyway.

Let's go with your corny example

2007 6.Bucks Yi vs 16.Wiz Nick Young>>>>>players picked after him...(Sean Williams, Belinelli, Wilson Chandler, Carl Landry, Ramon Sessions)
2006 6.Roy vs 16. Carney>>>>>players picked after him....(Rajon Rondo, Kyle Lowry, Paul Milsap)
2005 6.Martell Webster vs 16. Joey Graham>>>>players picked after him...(Danny Granger, David Lee, Linas Kleiza, Francisco Garcia, Hakim Warrick, Jarret Jack, Nate Robinson, Monta Ellis, Louis Williams)
2004 6.Josh Childress vs 16.Kirk Snyder>>>>>>players picked after him...(Josh Smith, J.R. Smith, Jameer Nelson, Kevin Martin)
2003 6.Chris Kaman vs 16.Troy Bell>>>>>>players picked after him...(David West, Boris Diaw, Travis Outlaw, Barbosa, Josh Howard, Perkins, Mo Williams)
2002 6.Dujuan Wagner vs 16.Jiri Welsch>>>>>players picked after him...(Tayshaun Prince, Nenad Kristic, John Salmons, Carlos Boozer, Luis Scola)
2001 6.Shane Battier vs 16. Kirk Haston>>>>>players picked after him...(Zach Randolph, Tony Parker, Gerald Wallace, Samuel Dalembert, Jamal Tinsley, Gilbert Arenas, Mehmet Okur)
2000 6.Demarr Johnson vs 16.Hedo Turkeyglue>>>>>players picked after him...(Desmond Mason, Jamal Magloire, Mo Peterson, Quentin Richardson, Deshawn Stevenson, Michael Redd)

Since I think this draft has about a 15-20 player depth meaning you have a good chance to find a player who could contribute in a very moderate to significant way it appears to me all we need to do is our home work and find the right player at 16 if we were to do such a trade.




[Edited by - TrueBlue on 06-06-2008 11:40 AM]

Posted by VDesai:

TrueBlue, if you're going to be fair you have to include players between 6 and 16 that could've been taken at 6. There's no doubt that you have a better probability of getting a good player at 6 simply because there are more players available. If you're telling me this draft is 15-20 player depth than your talking about choosing from a pool of 15 guys vs a pool of about 5.

I understand this VDesai my point with Briggs is there will be great value at 16 IMO as much so 6 assuming the usual suspects are off the board by the time we pick. And I did include players between 6-16 when I gave my trade suggestion of making it a 4 team trade and acquiring picks 11 and 19. Briggs feels there's great degree of separation in talent from pick 6-16 and I don't. Past drafts proved this to be true and this draft will be no different.

Posted by djsunyc:

i think when comparing pick 6 to pick 16...it shouldn't be purely on what each player brings to the table...but the potential the player can help a team win.

gordon looks to be a good player. but at 6'3, he may have to settle being a 6th man.

he probably has a ton more game than CDR, who doesn't really have the handle to create, and possibly not the strength.

BUT if CDR is used like a rip, he can start for any team in the league and be a major force.

obviously, having the 6th pick is better than having the 16th but dropping down all those slots may not yield a player that much worse.

Thank You! These are words of wisdom to live by.

Posted by joec32033:

TMS, all do respect, that was a tad harsh for some internet bickering, no?

joe, i give respect when i get respect, i think u of all people know this about me... BRIGGS taking a shot at my forums was stooping pretty low even for him... i give back as bad as i get... if someone's gonna be a prick to me i got no problems shooting right back at em... that's how i roll... i don't think i was outta line at all.

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by fishmike:

Posted by eViL:
Honestly, I rather keep Zach all season and be terrible and get another top 5 pick then trade out of the best draft position that we've had in many years. It's been sickening to watch this team trade away picks that could have led to Brandon Roy, Randy Foye, Rudy Gay, or LaMarcus Aldridge.

ahhh.. the voice of reason. Zach's contract doesnt freak me out. Giving up more talent does. No way we trade down. If Zach cant become a servicable player for us he can sit at home.

Sit at home and watch top FAs sign elsewhere because he's on our roster in 2010/11. Brilliant.

sit home and watch Bos play in the finals because Ainge aggressively stocked his team with picks and used them to trade for KG and Allen, while you trade your picks/talent to get rid of Zach. Really brilliant.

So when we have purged the roster including the guys up for extensions in Nate, Lee, Balk, etc who is on this team we are luring FAs too? Did you ever answer that? You like to snit rather then discuss... do feel free to share your ideas amigo.

Posted by Bonn1997:

Posted by BRIGGS:

Posted by King1:

In the history of the league when has a team dumped a 20/10 player, and the team improved and made the playoffs. Zach got dumped for a reason he is a cancer and plays no defense at all. He has a horrible contract and if all Walsh does this year is dump that contract for something shorter it will be a good year

So King 1 so you think the fans would accept the only result after a 23 win season is a dump of Zach randolph? You dont want Eric Gordon anymore I guess? What if Eric Gordon is a 20-5-4 player for 10 years and zach is long gone--so getting rid of him one extra year is worth it?

You can't make every move based on what fans will accept, Briggs. You have to have a longer-term vision in which they'll be happy with the outcome even if they didn't understand every trade at the time.

It's a pretty good example. Here is the bottom line if you dont get it. IF we move from 6-16 and we MISS out on a star player that couldve been a core player on the team for 10-13 years--was it worth it to remove 10 mm in cap space two years from now? There is a HUGE HUGE difference between 6-16 in this draft--no one can tell me otherwise and I think it's apparent. Will there be good/great players at 16 probably but the odds of drafting one goes WAY down at 6 it goes way up. It's too much risk to make a move like this --it's like giving two drfat picks for Eddy Curry --you want something but only at a reasonable cost. If we were moving back 2 spots no big deal 10 spots is HUGE.

Posted by djsunyc:

before any stance can be made...i think the first question is what is the most important thing to the knicks organization right now?

from listening to walsh, he has said numerous times he wants to be in the free agent market in 2010. so i'm guessing that although this pick is ok...i see them moving it to dump zach's deal.

Then he is wrong. He cannot overspend to hit his goal. If we make a fair deal--great. You cant make bad deals to get that cap space--especially since we'll have HUGE cap space the following year---it's about right --2 years to build up and the third year we have an abundance of cap space. No need to rush things--every time we rush it we go back 5 steps. There is always S+T--Pau Gasol was traded this year--you cant be inflexible liek that.