Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by TMS:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by TMS:
players executing on the floor is what it all boils down to.

Agreed and players who allow Kwame Brown and Smush Parker to go off and Tony Parker to go for 41pts and 30+ in 5gms during a first round and allowing a player like Jason Terry to increase his production hundredfold not good is what it boils down to.

i think you just debunked your own original argument.

No I didn't because who enables those players to play that poorly......The coach. Isn't this why Phil gets the credit he gets because he knows how to get players to execute his system and knows how to mesh great talents together so that they perform at their best? D'Antoni failed miserably at this come playoff time.

So according to you we better not trade for any Suns player but hiring the coach is aye O.K.

There's blame to be placed in that organization including the players but D'Antoni deserves a lot of it because it went on yr after yr.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 05-20-2008 3:19 PM]

Posted by newyorknewyork:

They go hand and hand. You need superstar and a team that can get critical stops. But you must be able to get stops when you need it. Spurs,Heat,Lakers have all been able to get critical stops when they needed it. While Wade-Shaq, Parker-Ginobli-Duncan, Kobe-Shaq where able to put up big pts.

When Suns traded Joe Johnson they went after Raja Bell & took back Boris Diaw both were role playing defenders. They also signed or traded for Steven Hunter who is a rebounder shot blocker specialist. Also signed Marcus Banks who is a defensive specialist at the PG position behind Nash. The suns definatly tried to add some defensive role players to the team.

The problem is they had nobody that could own the glass like a Duncan or Shaq & even Wallace in Detroit could down the stretch of games. And they had nobody that would be the defensive presence in the paint they needed in critical times the way that Shaq & Duncan could & Wallace did. If Amare was cappable of doing so then they probably would have gotten some championships and Amare would be known as that elite championship superstar but his inability to do so is what holds him back from being that. That and the fact that he can't run an offense through the post, but Nash more then made up for that.

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by fishmike:

Posted by islesfan:
Yes, defense is one factor but it just so happens that it is the one common factor amongst all Championship teams.

that my friend is where your wrong. As I mentioned before the common factor is every title winning team had the best player in the NBA, or surely on of the best 3. Again, the common factor is MJ, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan and Hakeem. Those 5 guys account for 16 of the 17 titles.

Phil Jackson NEVER stressed defense. He stressed the triangle offense. He had average at best interior defenders in Chi in Cartwright, Grant, Rodman, Longley, Purdue. Rodman pulled on the Mailman's shorts and Shaw clogged the lane. MJ and Scottie were great defenders but the Bulls or Lakers were not regarded as defensive teams.

The Rockets and Spurs obviously are, but once again.. they are built around STARS who were all world defenders in Tim/Hakeem.

LeBron is the best player in the East by far this year, why couldn't he get past the 2nd rd?

Those guys were the best because they were on the best teams, playing for some of the best coaches (Jackson, Popovich and Tomjanovich) who demanded that they play great defense.

Sorry but MJ's Bulls were regarded as a defensive team. The Lakers worked hard on defense and could always get stops when they needed them.

Believe it or not, strong defense amongst championship teams is not a coincidence.

moot point on Lebron. We are talking about titles. Who did he lost to last year? Another team with a superstar player.

Bulls were not about defense. They were about MJ and the triangle. You played them the game was about how to contain MJ, not how to beat their superior defense. Sorry dude.. your just in "I refuse to lose an arguement" mode. Getting stops and being defensive team are different things. The Lakers were not built to beat you with their defense. They were build to beat you with Shaq and Kobe. Phil won 9 titles stessing offense and having THE BEST SCORER in the league.

Superstar players is the theme to winning a title. Not defense. I am not saying its not important

Posted by fishmike:

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by fishmike:

Posted by islesfan:
Yes, defense is one factor but it just so happens that it is the one common factor amongst all Championship teams.

that my friend is where your wrong. As I mentioned before the common factor is every title winning team had the best player in the NBA, or surely on of the best 3. Again, the common factor is MJ, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan and Hakeem. Those 5 guys account for 16 of the 17 titles.

Phil Jackson NEVER stressed defense. He stressed the triangle offense. He had average at best interior defenders in Chi in Cartwright, Grant, Rodman, Longley, Purdue. Rodman pulled on the Mailman's shorts and Shaw clogged the lane. MJ and Scottie were great defenders but the Bulls or Lakers were not regarded as defensive teams.

The Rockets and Spurs obviously are, but once again.. they are built around STARS who were all world defenders in Tim/Hakeem.

LeBron is the best player in the East by far this year, why couldn't he get past the 2nd rd?

Those guys were the best because they were on the best teams, playing for some of the best coaches (Jackson, Popovich and Tomjanovich) who demanded that they play great defense.

Sorry but MJ's Bulls were regarded as a defensive team. The Lakers worked hard on defense and could always get stops when they needed them.

Believe it or not, strong defense amongst championship teams is not a coincidence.

moot point on Lebron. We are talking about titles. Who did he lost to last year? Another team with a superstar player.

Bulls were not about defense. They were about MJ and the triangle. You played them the game was about how to contain MJ, not how to beat their superior defense. Sorry dude.. your just in "I refuse to lose an arguement" mode. Getting stops and being defensive team are different things. The Lakers were not built to beat you with their defense. They were build to beat you with Shaq and Kobe. Phil won 9 titles stessing offense and having THE BEST SCORER in the league.

Superstar players is the theme to winning a title. Not defense. I am not saying its not important

Why is it moot? Because your "The best player always wins" theory is debunked since LeBron couldn't even get out of the 2nd rd? And your theory wasn't just about having a superstar player, it was about having one of the top 3 players in the NBA, which LeBron surely is. So was Nash in his MVP years.

The Bulls weren't just about defense, but it's completely unfair to say that they weren't a great defensive team. And being able to get stops when you need them, goes hand in hand with being a very good, if not great, defensive team. Playing good defense just doesn't happen.

"Superstar players is the theme to winning a title."

LeBron, who is watching the Eastern Conference Finals on tv, begs to differ.

Posted by islesfan:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Here are some gut wrenching Playoff Stats from the Suns during D'Antoni's tenure

2007-2008

Ranked 13th out of 16 team in PA at 102ppg http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=tmcompare&sort=pts&league=nba&season=2008&seasontype=3&avg=pg&order=false&split=999

Ranked 12th out 16 teams in FG% allowed at practically 47% http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=tmcompare&sort=fg%&league=nba&season=2008&seasontype=3&avg=pg&order=false&split=999

Ranked 7th out of 16 teams in 3pt% allowed at 37% http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=tmcompare&sort=3p%&league=nba&season=2008&seasontype=3&avg=pg=true&split=999

Ranked 5th out of 16 teams in Rebounds allowed http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=teamstatreb&sort=totreb&league=nba&season=2008&seasontype=3&avg=pg&order=true&split=999


2006-2007

Ranked 11th out 16 teams in PA at 99ppg(not bad but still 11th) http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=tmcompare&sort=pts&league=nba&season=2007&seasontype=3&avg=pg&order=false&split=999

Ranked 10th in FG% allowed at 45% (not bad but still 10th) http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=tmcompare&sort=fg%&league=nba&season=2007&seasontype=3&avg=pg&order=false&split=999

Ranked 7th out of 16 teams in 3pt% allowed (not bad middle of the pack a safe spot) http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=tmcompare&sort=3p%&league=nba&season=2007&seasontype=3&avg=pg&order=false&split=999

Ranked 13th out of 16 teams in Rebounds allowed http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=teamstatreb&sort=totreb&league=nba&season=2007&seasontype=3&avg=pg&order=false&split=999


2006-2006

Ranked 13th out of 16 teams in PA at a whopping 106ppg http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=tmcompare&sort=pts&league=nba&season=2006&seasontype=3&avg=pg&order=false&split=999

Ranked 13th out of 16 teams in FG% allowed at 47% http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=tmcompare&sort=fg%&league=nba&season=2006&seasontype=3&avg=pg&order=false&split=999

Ranked 4rth out of 16 teams in 3pt% allowed(very good and shocking) http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=tmcompare&sort=3p%&league=nba&season=2006&seasontype=3&avg=pg&order=false&split=999

Ranked 16th out of 16 teams in Rebounds allowed(HORRIFUL) http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=teamstatreb&sort=totreb&league=nba&season=2006&seasontype=3&avg=pg&order=false&split=999


2004-2005

Ranked 14th out of 16 teams in PA at a staggering 108ppg http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=tmcompare&sort=pts&league=nba&season=2005&seasontype=3&avg=pg&order=false&split=999

Ranked 12th out of 16 teams in FG% allowed at practically 47% http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=tmcompare&sort=fg%&league=nba&season=2005&seasontype=3&avg=pg&order=false&split=999

Ranked 9th out of 16 teams in 3pt% allowed at 37%( mediocre and 37% is not good) http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=tmcompare&sort=3p%&league=nba&season=2005&seasontype=3&avg=pg&order=false&split=999

Ranked 12th out 16 teams in Rebounds allowed http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=teamstatreb&sort=totreb=nba&season=2005&seasontype=3&avg=pg&order=false&split=999



Basically what we have is a coach who never made any defensive adjustments in the most important statistical categories that heavily factor into a teams post-season success. Not to mention they had negative +/- in a few of these categories. But when a coaches philosophy is this...

"Most coaches believe defenses are more vulnerable late in the shot clock, that you can get them out of position with a lot of passing," he said. "I don't know why defenses wouldn't be more vulnerable before they set up. That's why we play fast.

"People say that when you play fast you'll be a high-turnover team. I think you'll be a low-turnover tam because you don't throw as many passes."

What do you expect?




[Edited by - TrueBlue on 05-20-2008 3:56 PM]

Wow, that's pretty awful. But I'm sure we'll be told how none of that mattered and D'Antoni really did spend all of his practice time on defense.

Posted by TMS:

the reason i didn't want Flip was because i didn't want Marbury to be catered to any longer... doesn't mean i think he's an awful coach.

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by TMS:

the reason i didn't want Flip was because i didn't want Marbury to be catered to any longer... doesn't mean i think he's an awful coach.

I can buy this I'll counter and say


"I don't want D'Antoni because he didn't particularly mesh well with Marbury when in PHX"


I guess the silver lining is Pringles won't have to put up with Marbury for long.... HUH?


Oh and exsqueeze me Flip has got Detroit not to 2 ECF but 3 ECF's 3 yrs in a row.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 05-20-2008 4:16 PM]

Posted by holfresh:

Posted by fishmike:

Shaq and Kobe's Laker's were average defensive teams. Also MJ's Bulls were not great either. MJ and Pippen were excellent defenders. Rodman was a great rebounder but they never had a great interior defense. Those teams could get stops, but were not going to be you with defense for 48 minutes like the Knicks, Spurs, Rockets, etc of the era were built to do.

I think you are low keying it there a little no?...Jordan and Rodman were first team all NBA defenders...Pippen was all NBA as well at some point if I remember correctly...Shaq is and NBA all defensive team member during those Championship runs...Kobe is as all NBA defensive team member as well...

You are insane if you thought the Bulls were not better defenders than the Spurs top to bottom...They were better defenders than the Rockets too...Come on Fish, you're barking up the wrong tree this time...