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fishmike
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5/19/2008  12:58 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by nyk4ever:

I think with the way that both Hughes and Kennedy pitched last year they both have some talent and we can't jump to conclusions on young pitchers, not everyone has the success that Joba has when they come up.

Do you really believe that what Kennedy did last year in 19 innings is who he really is? Most pitchers who come into the league do well since no one has seen them before.
Ian Kennedy has won and dominated at every level he has pitched from high school to college to AA and AAA. He has done nothing but been won at every level.

I think he will be a good pitcher. How good? Not a star, but a front rotation pitcher for sure.

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jaydh
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5/19/2008  1:00 PM
Posted by fishmike:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by nyk4ever:

I think with the way that both Hughes and Kennedy pitched last year they both have some talent and we can't jump to conclusions on young pitchers, not everyone has the success that Joba has when they come up.

Do you really believe that what Kennedy did last year in 19 innings is who he really is? Most pitchers who come into the league do well since no one has seen them before.
Ian Kennedy has won and dominated at every level he has pitched from high school to college to AA and AAA. He has done nothing but been won at every level.

I think he will be a good pitcher. How good? Not a star, but a front rotation pitcher for sure.


Yet, he has never been touted as a front-end guy by scouts.
TMS
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5/19/2008  1:06 PM
Posted by fishmike:

a bunch of questions marks... good analysis

dude, don't bother, ur gonna end up running around in circles only to have Bonn have the final word in any & every discussion you engage him in... he's the resident expert, let's not forget.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
fishmike
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5/19/2008  1:07 PM
maybe the same scouts that are desperate to get him in every trade? Same scouts that passed on Joba as every team did?

The guy has good stuff, knows how to play and knows how to win. My guess is he is not ready to be here but will be eventually

http://www.moundtalk.com/prospects/ian-kennedy-scouting-report/

thats a very good and fair read. It talks openly about IK's short comings and problems, but at the end of the day he's a #2 starter.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
jaydh
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5/19/2008  1:15 PM
Posted by fishmike:

maybe the same scouts that are desperate to get him in every trade? Same scouts that passed on Joba as every team did?

Ever hear of the slotting system? Many teams follow it. Perhaps that it why.
Posted by fishmike:

http://www.moundtalk.com/prospects/ian-kennedy-scouting-report/

Is that someone directly realted to MLB writing that stuff or just some random guy? It's prior to the '07 season and doesn't even have Kennedy on the top100 list meanwhile Pelfrey is in the top 20 and Humber is on the list.
TMS
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5/19/2008  1:19 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by fishmike:

Maybe the Yanks didnt want to give up on of baseball's highest ranked pitching prospects AND pay $20mm a year and more to a guy with a 1-3 record in October and an ERA almost a run a game higher than his regular season.

I didn't realize the Yankees acquired Buchholz.



[Edited by - jaydh on 05-19-2008 12:57 PM]

i think he was talking about Hughes.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
fishmike
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5/19/2008  1:20 PM
http://www.moundtalk.com/prospects/kobys-top-100-prospects-2008/
There are 51 pitchers listed among the top 100 prospects. The Yanks have 4. Doesnt seem like a ton but its 8%. The point is TB, Texas and Yanks all have 4 pitchers on this list. That puts their farm system among tops. The Yanks also have tremendous depth at AA and AAA. Just look at their rosters. Both teams are dominating because of their pitching and most of those guys are unrated.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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5/19/2008  1:25 PM
on that note I am so glad you mentioned Buchholz. No hitter last year, untouchable, young star in the making, oh.. and he's 2-3 with a 5.53 ERA and has allowed 70 baserunners in 42 innings.

People need to understand these guys take time, somtimes a lot of time.

I love when guys I play with want to try pitching, and either get torched or cant throw strikes. Usually its cant throw strikes. Its hard. Really hard. Might be the hardest thing to do in sports at that level because the hitters are jacked up monsters that destroy every mistake that gets made.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
jaydh
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5/19/2008  1:29 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by fishmike:

Maybe the Yanks didnt want to give up on of baseball's highest ranked pitching prospects AND pay $20mm a year and more to a guy with a 1-3 record in October and an ERA almost a run a game higher than his regular season.

I didn't realize the Yankees acquired Buchholz.



[Edited by - jaydh on 05-19-2008 12:57 PM]

i think he was talking about Hughes.

I'm sure he was.
TMS
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5/19/2008  1:29 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by fishmike:

maybe the same scouts that are desperate to get him in every trade? Same scouts that passed on Joba as every team did?

Ever hear of the slotting system? Many teams follow it. Perhaps that it why.
Posted by fishmike:

http://www.moundtalk.com/prospects/ian-kennedy-scouting-report/

Is that someone directly realted to MLB writing that stuff or just some random guy? It's prior to the '07 season and doesn't even have Kennedy on the top100 list meanwhile Pelfrey is in the top 20 and Humber is on the list.

Kennedy's currently ranked #34 on baseball's top prospects list on baseballprospectus.com... didn't see Humber or Pelfrey's names anywhere on their top 100 (unless they're no longer considered to be "prospects" at this point... Hughes isn't listed either so that could be the case)

the only Met prospect listed is Fernando Martinez at #51, as opposed to the Yankees who have 5 different prospects on the list in Joba, Kennedy, Jackson, Tabata & Horne... i don't get what you're trying to argue here? that the Yankees' farm system is overrated? if that's the case then the Mets' farm system is an embarassment of epic proportions... your "blue chip can't miss" Lastings Milledge is probably 1 of the most overrated prospects in recent history... you guys did well to get Ryan Church back in a trade for him but you guys wet the bed when you had the chance to trade Milledge for a topnotch starting pitcher a couple years ago when his hype was at an alltime high.
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jaydh
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5/19/2008  1:31 PM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by fishmike:

maybe the same scouts that are desperate to get him in every trade? Same scouts that passed on Joba as every team did?

Ever hear of the slotting system? Many teams follow it. Perhaps that it why.
Posted by fishmike:

http://www.moundtalk.com/prospects/ian-kennedy-scouting-report/

Is that someone directly realted to MLB writing that stuff or just some random guy? It's prior to the '07 season and doesn't even have Kennedy on the top100 list meanwhile Pelfrey is in the top 20 and Humber is on the list.

Kennedy's currently ranked #34 on baseball's top prospects list on baseballprospectus.com... didn't see Humber or Pelfrey's names anywhere on their top 100 (unless they're no longer considered to be "prospects" at this point... Hughes isn't listed either so that could be the case)

woosh, over the head.
TMS
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5/19/2008  1:32 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by fishmike:

Maybe the Yanks didnt want to give up on of baseball's highest ranked pitching prospects AND pay $20mm a year and more to a guy with a 1-3 record in October and an ERA almost a run a game higher than his regular season.

I didn't realize the Yankees acquired Buchholz.



[Edited by - jaydh on 05-19-2008 12:57 PM]

i think he was talking about Hughes.

I'm sure he was.

Hughes was the highest rated pitching prospect in all of baseball on scouting lists last year.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
TMS
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5/19/2008  1:33 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by TMS:
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by fishmike:

maybe the same scouts that are desperate to get him in every trade? Same scouts that passed on Joba as every team did?

Ever hear of the slotting system? Many teams follow it. Perhaps that it why.
Posted by fishmike:

http://www.moundtalk.com/prospects/ian-kennedy-scouting-report/

Is that someone directly realted to MLB writing that stuff or just some random guy? It's prior to the '07 season and doesn't even have Kennedy on the top100 list meanwhile Pelfrey is in the top 20 and Humber is on the list.

Kennedy's currently ranked #34 on baseball's top prospects list on baseballprospectus.com... didn't see Humber or Pelfrey's names anywhere on their top 100 (unless they're no longer considered to be "prospects" at this point... Hughes isn't listed either so that could be the case)

woosh, over the head.

dude, no need to be an a-hole... i'm offering up information & trying to gauge your point in this debate.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
nyk4ever
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5/19/2008  1:40 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by nyk4ever:

I think with the way that both Hughes and Kennedy pitched last year they both have some talent and we can't jump to conclusions on young pitchers, not everyone has the success that Joba has when they come up.

Do you really believe that what Kennedy did last year in 19 innings is who he really is? Most pitchers who come into the league do well since no one has seen them before.

This is the problem with engaging in conversations with Mets fans like yourself because you have such disdain for the Yankees, that you can't even have a relevant conversation.

Obviously Kennedy is not a 1.90 ERA pitcher like he pitched last year, but what he did show in those few starts is that when he's right, he's a pretty solid pitcher. I don't care about how scouts have touted anyone, that doesn't mean sh!t to me, what matters is how well you play when you reach the show. Right now, Kennedy is struggling, but he's got sneaky stuff and once he picks his confidence up off the floor, I suspect he will have a solid career. A solid #3 pitcher who at times can be unhittable, nothing wrong with that. But again, he has to pick his confidence up off the floor.
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Bonn1997
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5/19/2008  1:41 PM
Posted by jaydh:
Posted by fishmike:

maybe the same scouts that are desperate to get him in every trade? Same scouts that passed on Joba as every team did?

Ever hear of the slotting system? Many teams follow it. Perhaps that it why.
Posted by fishmike:

http://www.moundtalk.com/prospects/ian-kennedy-scouting-report/

Is that someone directly realted to MLB writing that stuff or just some random guy? It's prior to the '07 season and doesn't even have Kennedy on the top100 list meanwhile Pelfrey is in the top 20 and Humber is on the list.
Great question. Anyway, I do value Hughes A LOT. It would take a lot for me to give him up, but a Cy Young winner in his mid 20s certainly qualifies. Maybe Cash-Man can get Roger and a few of his 45 year old friends to come out of retirement and give each of them $40 mil/year contracts. That would make up for passing on Johan.


[Edited by - bonn1997 on 05-19-2008 1:43 PM]
nyk4ever
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5/19/2008  1:48 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:


Great question. Anyway, I do value Hughes A LOT. It would take a lot for me to give him up, but a Cy Young winner in his mid 20s certainly qualifies. Maybe Cash-Man can get Roger and a few of his 45 year old friends to come out of retirement and give each of them $40 mil/year contracts. That would make up for passing on Johan.


[Edited by - bonn1997 on 05-19-2008 1:43 PM]

Santana is NOT in his mid-20's... he'll be 30 by the start of next season.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
Bonn1997
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5/19/2008  2:05 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by Bonn1997:


Great question. Anyway, I do value Hughes A LOT. It would take a lot for me to give him up, but a Cy Young winner in his mid 20s certainly qualifies. Maybe Cash-Man can get Roger and a few of his 45 year old friends to come out of retirement and give each of them $40 mil/year contracts. That would make up for passing on Johan.


[Edited by - bonn1997 on 05-19-2008 1:43 PM]


Santana is NOT in his mid-20's... he'll be 30 by the start of next season.

My bad. Late 20s. At least he's not 45 like Roger.

[Edited by - bonn1997 on 05-19-2008 2:06 PM]
fishmike
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5/19/2008  2:18 PM
Roger at 45 last year seems to be doing better than Pedro.

But why fuss

Mets are the best as demonstrated by their victories this weekend. The all time regular season series is now 35-27 in favor of the Yanks. A few more wins and you guys can rest in peace.

Have the Mets even *had* a pitching prospect since Pulsipher, Issy and Wilson? Oh yea I forgot. Scott Kazmir

HA HA HA HA

Mets are puking money on guys like Pedro, Beltran, Johan, Delgado, and they dont even make the playoffs (well, if the season ended Sep 15 you guys would be champs I am sure)

But you call our GM CASH MAN.

Good one

Mets are best.
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
djsunyc
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5/19/2008  2:30 PM
fish, please show some class. i mean they play in the NL for pete's sake. that's like the toughest league...ever!!!









this year might be their year...let's all cross our fingers and wish them luck!!!
djsunyc
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5/19/2008  2:33 PM
we got the team work
to make the dream work
let's go!!!



[Edited by - djsunyc on 05-19-2008 2:34 PM]
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