[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

The more things change, the more they stay the same..The presumptive D'Antoni hire..
Forum Index  ›  NY Knicks Forum
Page 3 of 5 ‹ Previous 1  2  3  4  5 Next ›
« Reply To Topic
Author Thread
Solace
Posts: 30002
Alba Posts: 20
Joined: 10/30/2003
Member: #479
USA
5/11/2008  2:19 AM
I don't know, crzymdups, I think our roster is terrible, probably the worst in the league. There's a few bright spots, but it's pretty bad. I don't think D'Antoni will come in and instantly change that. My *hope* is that management, too, realizes this and it will be a patient process. That being said, if we get D'Antoni a few of his players and draft a core player and start to change this thing around, I'll simply be happy to see those sorts of changes.

The Knicks locker room and atmosphere, from the media policy, to the criminals of a player, GM, etc... were absolutely toxic for everyone involved. I hope these are the early steps in the effort to change that. Agree that if this means we suddenly think we're a 50 win team next year, it's doomed.

As for defense, though, if that's the priority, I again question why people would want Mark Jackson? He was a poor defensive player, and singlehandedly cost the Knicks when we made the Childs for Jackson trade with his god-awful defense. If people were looking for Jackson to come in and teach defense, I think they would've been disappointed.
Wishing everyone well. I enjoyed posting here for a while, but as I matured I realized this forum isn't for me. We all evolve. Thanks for the memories everyone.
AUTOADVERT
joec32033
Posts: 30621
Alba Posts: 37
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #583
USA
5/11/2008  9:00 AM
I was going to post something on Friday after reading the paper but never got around to it. Stern wants this franchise turned around now. Dolan promised to spend any amount to get that done. It was in the post on Friday(I think) and in the Daily News before that. I resigne myself to the fact there will be no rebuilding after that.

There will be no rebuilding here. Isiah actually put this franchise in such a bad place the commissioner is going to have to help us out of this mess. I know it sounds messed up, but I seriously have a feeling we will not get lower than the 3rd pick in the draft if not the 2nd.

Mike wasn't my first choice but I didn't want Jackson. Avery was my #1. Now that he's here you hear different stories about how he won in Italy using a more conventional style.

I am taking a wait and see approach with this.
~You can't run from who you are.~
islesfan
Posts: 9999
Alba Posts: 37
Joined: 7/19/2004
Member: #712
5/11/2008  2:43 PM
Posted by Elite:

Lets get this straight, we are embarking on a 2-3 year rebuilding phase.

With that said, what is most important in the next 2-3 years?

1. Establish a disciplined culture with a focus on Defense and accountability.
2. Develop and covet young talent
3. Raise our players trade value

Mike D’antoni in my eyes is not the man to accomplish steps 1 and 2. But he could accomplish #3.

I dont like this move, Because Mike D’antoni’s system is not winning any championships… But this roster isnt winning any championships no matter WHO coaches us.

So what does it boil down to?

We will probobly get a lot better during the regular season and our players will look a lot more appealing to other teams within the run and gun offense. We might even make the playoffs.. Maybe even next year!

So what do we sacrifice? We are not truely rebuilding.. As usual.. because we wont get the great kinds of draft pick we are going to get this year. Also its kind of fools gold for guys like David Lee to think this is the way to win, when we ALL KNOW very well Mike D’s system DOES NOT WIN inthe playoffs where it counts.

Mike had a PERFECT roster in phoenix for his system, it cant get any better… Yet he still lost over and over again in the playoffs.. So why should we think hes going to come here and do anything worth caring about with our terrible roster?

Knick fans want to build towards WINNING A CHAMPIONSHIP

not make the playoffs next year

Dolan continues to be behind moves that improve our chances of making the playoffs next year every year, while hurting our chances to actually win a championship in the long run.

I feel like Isiah is still in charge

What he said.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TrueBlue
Posts: 29144
Alba Posts: 12
Joined: 9/20/2006
Member: #1172
5/11/2008  2:48 PM
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by crzymdups:
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by islesfan:

"I think it is a terrible match," said one rival head coach. "I don't get it. Two of the biggest problems with the Knicks are that they don't practice and they don't play defense. I don't know if that changes now."

Everyone knows the roster had/has to be gutted, so how does that statement matter?

it matters because D'Antoni is a coach who doesn't emphasize practice or defense.

Again, why do people say this? The Suns defense has been above average for four years and D'Antoni has gotten his players to work very hard for him. Where is the evidence that D'Antoni is a laid back coach who doesn't care? Meanwhile, people loved the idea of preaching defense by bringing in a point guard who was the worst defensive point guard in the NBA while he was a player and has never coached a single game? Yeah, that makes sense.

He cares, but he has a reputation as a players coach. His practices are known to be about 30 minutes long. He clashed with Steve Kerr because Kerr wanted him to emphasize defense in practice more. These things aren't opinions I'm making up, they are widely held opinions throughout the NBA.

Here's the mind of D'Antoni
"Most coaches believe defenses are more vulnerable late in the shot clock, that you can get them out of position with a lot of passing," he said. "I don't know why defenses wouldn't be more vulnerable before they set up. That's why we play fast.

"People say that when you play fast you'll be a high-turnover team. I think you'll be a low-turnover tam because you don't throw as many passes."

Would someone please forward this breakthrough innovative 21rst Century mindset over to the Spurs, Pistons, and Lakers and let them know the systems they've been running for the past 5-10yrs are not D'Antoni approved....


Thanks In Advance!!!

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 05-11-2008 1:48 PM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
djsunyc
Posts: 44929
Alba Posts: 42
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #536
5/11/2008  2:56 PM
since the emotional connection with the knicks is basically gone with me...i can sit back and evaluate the team w/o any biases (at least i think i can)...

walsh is 67 and hired for 3 years.
d'antoni, imho, is not a rebuilding coach...but a coach with a system.

so the primary objective for this current regime is to bring the knicks back to respectability and the playoffs as quick as possible.

that's ok, there's nothing wrong with that. but i think that trumps any long term plan to achieve anything greater.

what i mean by d'antoni is not a rebuilding coach is that i don't think he particularly develops players BUT he does put players that fit his system in good situations. what does this mean? it means that he must have the correct personnel to have this team playing at a good level. whereas some coaches may take some teams and have them overachieve w/o the *perfect* roster, i don't see d'antoni doing it unless it's the perfect mix of players.

which makes this hire more in line with the "get to the playoffs asap" mantra the team has been using for a while now. again, there's nothing wrong with that but if fans want to enjoy the product, they must either alter their expecations and accept the situation or move on.

i fear the 2009 draft pick will suffer b/c of this hire so the best chance for the knicks to really take a major step forward is this draft. i think they have to get another pick - maybe even two. either that or continue the expiring contract philosophy.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 05-11-2008 3:17 PM]
nyk4ever
Posts: 41010
Alba Posts: 12
Joined: 1/12/2005
Member: #848
USA
5/11/2008  3:02 PM
Posted by crzymdups:

so, wait? you're saying D'Antoni is being hired as a big name coach but you don't think he'll get wins? what's the point of hiring him again?

He will get wins, three years from now after him and Walsh have worked hard TOGETHER to bring in the proper players to play in his system.

This is the problem with New York fans, everything is now now now. The point of hiring D'Antoni is because he has a very solid vision and knows exactly what he wants from his basketball team. If you are looking for a coach, you just don't let a coach like that go somewhere else - you hire him. D'Antoni was hired so he can HELP Walsh rebuild this team and mold the players that come in, into exactly what he wants and run the system the way he wants.

Whats the point of hiring a coach only to fire him when you are ready to compete? Why can't a guy like D'Antoni come in and be part of the rebuilding effort work together with Walsh to start something and build it into what they want. It makes no sense to not have the coach in place already when the team is ready to compete.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
CrushAlot
Posts: 59764
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/25/2003
Member: #452
USA
5/11/2008  3:04 PM
I think you are right on with your assessment. I think the other troubling things are that this move implies that Dolan is as involved as he was in the past. I also think that D'Antoni is going to burnout quick. Most coaches who have had the kind of run he has had need a year off because they are so into their job and it is so intense. It certainly will be intense for him once he is in NY. My biggest problems with the hire is that it is the same thing with a new pres. and that it appears again that rebuilding will not be happening.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
islesfan
Posts: 9999
Alba Posts: 37
Joined: 7/19/2004
Member: #712
5/11/2008  3:07 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

since the emotional connection with the knicks is basically gone with me...i can sit back and evaluate the team w/o any biases (at least i think i can)...

walsh is 67 and hired for 3 years.
d'antoni, imho, is not a rebuilding coach...but a coach with a system.

so the primary objective for this current regime is to bring the knicks back to respectability and the playoffs as quick as possible.

that's ok, there's nothing wrong with that. but i think that trumps any long term plan to achieve anything greater.

what i mean by d'antoni is not a rebuilding coach is that i don't think he particularly develops players BUT he does put players that fit his system in good situations. what does this mean? it means that he must have the correct personnel to have this team playing at a good level. whereas some coaches may take some teams and have them overachieve w/o the *perfect* roster, i don't see d'antoni doing it unless it's the perfect mix of players.

which makes this hire more in line with the "get to the playoffs asap" mantra the team has been using for a while now. again, there's nothing wrong with that but if fans want to enjoy the product, they must either alter their expecations and accept the situation.

i fear the 2009 draft pick will suffer b/c of this hire so the best chance for the knicks to really take a major step forward is this draft. i think they have to get another pick - maybe even two. either that or continue the expiring contract philosophy.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 05-11-2008 2:59 PM]

Great post DJ, very astute for a Raptors fan.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
TrueBlue
Posts: 29144
Alba Posts: 12
Joined: 9/20/2006
Member: #1172
5/11/2008  3:17 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

since the emotional connection with the knicks is basically gone with me...i can sit back and evaluate the team w/o any biases (at least i think i can)...

walsh is 67 and hired for 3 years.
d'antoni, imho, is not a rebuilding coach...but a coach with a system.

so the primary objective for this current regime is to bring the knicks back to respectability and the playoffs as quick as possible.

that's ok, there's nothing wrong with that. but i think that trumps any long term plan to achieve anything greater.

what i mean by d'antoni is not a rebuilding coach is that i don't think he particularly develops players BUT he does put players that fit his system in good situations. what does this mean? it means that he must have the correct personnel to have this team playing at a good level. whereas some coaches may take some teams and have them overachieve w/o the *perfect* roster, i don't see d'antoni doing it unless it's the perfect mix of players.

which makes this hire more in line with the "get to the playoffs asap" mantra the team has been using for a while now. again, there's nothing wrong with that but if fans want to enjoy the product, they must either alter their expecations and accept the situation.

i fear the 2009 draft pick will suffer b/c of this hire so the best chance for the knicks to really take a major step forward is this draft. i think they have to get another pick - maybe even two. either that or continue the expiring contract philosophy.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 05-11-2008 2:59 PM]

Pretty much in agreement I stated most of this yesterday...
That's not why D'Antoni was hired. He was hired for one reason only and please all of us don't be fooled. This is an All-In move to make the playoffs next yr, PERIOD. Anything outside of this, like getting under the cap, acquiring other means of flexibility or leverage to improve the roster, will be looked at as a bonus and nothing more.

And I'll say this, this hire wasn't with the mandate to make the playoffs at some point in 3yrs while Walsh is here... it's to make the playoffs next yr. Everything else will be put on the back burner.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
djsunyc
Posts: 44929
Alba Posts: 42
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #536
5/11/2008  3:20 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:

And I'll say this, this hire wasn't with the mandate to make the playoffs at some point in 3yrs while Walsh is here... it's to make the playoffs next yr. Everything else will be put on the back burner.

depending on this draft pick and whether the player is going to be *special* like chris paul...the ALL-IN mantra is still the best one for the knicks.

knicks are so much better off doing this:

1. trade marbury's expiring for redd
2. trade malik + dlee for artest
3. trade eddy + nate for ridnour + wilcox

ridnour, redd, artest, zach, wilcox w/ crawford + 2008 #1 pick off the bench. d'antoni can work with that and get that team to 50+ wins really quickly.
djsunyc
Posts: 44929
Alba Posts: 42
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #536
5/11/2008  3:26 PM
Posted by islesfan:

Great post DJ, very astute for a Raptors fan.

if there wasn't beef between sarver/colangelo - d'antoni probably would be the raptors coach.
TrueBlue
Posts: 29144
Alba Posts: 12
Joined: 9/20/2006
Member: #1172
5/11/2008  3:26 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by TrueBlue:

And I'll say this, this hire wasn't with the mandate to make the playoffs at some point in 3yrs while Walsh is here... it's to make the playoffs next yr. Everything else will be put on the back burner.

depending on this draft pick and whether the player is going to be *special* like chris paul...the ALL-IN mantra is still the best one for the knicks.

knicks are so much better off doing this:

1. trade marbury's expiring for redd
2. trade malik + dlee for artest
3. trade eddy + nate for ridnour + wilcox

ridnour, redd, artest, zach, wilcox w/ crawford + 2008 #1 pick off the bench. d'antoni can work with that and get that team to 50+ wins really quickly.

It's the best one trapping the moment this very second, but around the time the 2009 draft rolls round and we see the talent pool coming out we'll be gnashing our teeth and pulling our hair out. As usual the best thing for the Knicks is always instant gratification. It's so played out DJ.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
holfresh
Posts: 38679
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/14/2006
Member: #1081
5/11/2008  3:28 PM
It's tough watching the younger teams in the league come of age while we are still playing the same game from Dolan's playbook...One would have thought the noise made/being made by New Orleans, Atanta, and Utah would have clued in this organization on the virtues of rebuilding...Apparently not...

One can only hope now this is part of a grander plan being orchestrated by Moses Stern...He did wonders for Boston and L.A....By the way, no one can ever convince me those trades were legit...Can the Knicks be far behind...
djsunyc
Posts: 44929
Alba Posts: 42
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #536
5/11/2008  3:28 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by TrueBlue:

And I'll say this, this hire wasn't with the mandate to make the playoffs at some point in 3yrs while Walsh is here... it's to make the playoffs next yr. Everything else will be put on the back burner.

depending on this draft pick and whether the player is going to be *special* like chris paul...the ALL-IN mantra is still the best one for the knicks.

knicks are so much better off doing this:

1. trade marbury's expiring for redd
2. trade malik + dlee for artest
3. trade eddy + nate for ridnour + wilcox

ridnour, redd, artest, zach, wilcox w/ crawford + 2008 #1 pick off the bench. d'antoni can work with that and get that team to 50+ wins really quickly.

It's the best one trapping the moment this very second, but around the time the 2009 draft rolls round and we see the talent pool coming out we'll be gnashing our teeth and pulling our hair out. As usual the best thing for the Knicks is always instant gratification. It's so played out DJ.

it is...but that's just how it goes at 2 penn plaza. if they hired a guy like sam presti...then it would've finally changed (or even mark jackson). but we all know it hasn't. so why screw the pooch and not go all out b/c walsh/d'antoni CAN make it work. maybe not to a title level but definitely to, at the very least, washington wizards/denver nuggets level.
djsunyc
Posts: 44929
Alba Posts: 42
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #536
5/11/2008  3:31 PM
Posted by holfresh:

It's tough watching the younger teams in the league come of age while we are still playing the same game from Dolan's playbook...One would have thought the noise made/being made by New Orleans, Atanta, and Utah would have clued in this organization on the virtues of rebuilding...Apparently not...

One can only hope now this is part of a grander plan being orchestrated by Moses Stern...He did wonders for Boston and L.A....By the way, no one can ever convince me those trades were legit...Can the Knicks be far behind...


this is where the curry deal killed the team for a few years.

the fix is most definitely in...not sure exactly how it's going to go down yet but walsh/d'antoni in the house, you KNOW something else is coming down the pike...
TrueBlue
Posts: 29144
Alba Posts: 12
Joined: 9/20/2006
Member: #1172
5/11/2008  3:34 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by TrueBlue:

And I'll say this, this hire wasn't with the mandate to make the playoffs at some point in 3yrs while Walsh is here... it's to make the playoffs next yr. Everything else will be put on the back burner.

depending on this draft pick and whether the player is going to be *special* like chris paul...the ALL-IN mantra is still the best one for the knicks.

knicks are so much better off doing this:

1. trade marbury's expiring for redd
2. trade malik + dlee for artest
3. trade eddy + nate for ridnour + wilcox

ridnour, redd, artest, zach, wilcox w/ crawford + 2008 #1 pick off the bench. d'antoni can work with that and get that team to 50+ wins really quickly.

It's the best one trapping the moment this very second, but around the time the 2009 draft rolls round and we see the talent pool coming out we'll be gnashing our teeth and pulling our hair out. As usual the best thing for the Knicks is always instant gratification. It's so played out DJ.

it is...but that's just how it goes at 2 penn plaza. if they hired a guy like sam presti...then it would've finally changed (or even mark jackson). but we all know it hasn't. so why screw the pooch and not go all out b/c walsh/d'antoni CAN make it work. maybe not to a title level but definitely to, at the very least, washington wizards/denver nuggets level.


I thought we were going after Lebron?

It wont' work because we don't have enough time, cap space, nor talent level to accomplish this. We won't make the playoffs next yr or any yr with the 3 unless we do the most EPIC CLUSTERSTARPHUCHING we've ever seen.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
MS
Posts: 27060
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/28/2004
Member: #724
5/11/2008  3:35 PM
If the Suns sign Joe Johnson at the beginning of the season 3 years ago instead of alienating him and being cheap they would have won an NBA championship; their depth was sacrificed for financial purposes, and they lost in the playoffs when joe johnson got injured, stoudarmire missed the entire season and had some bad luck with nash when his nose got busted up and the nba has ****ed up rules that allow garnett to shove a ref and not get suspended and have a rule about leaving the bench that is purely reactionary that cost them the series.

Do the Suns lose to the Spurs if management doesn't give away Kurt Thomas, the answer is no. Thomas is an always will be one of the better defenders at his position and is better than Zach Randolf and would have probably got the Knicks to the playoffs had if you switched the two.

Would it have been nice for Mark Jackson to get a chance, of course i think he would have made a great coach. But lets see what Mike can do before we go crazy. No one can turn this team around so perhaps it would have been good to let jackson learn, but how long do most coaches get anyway. At least the Bulls didn't get him that would have transformed their entire team.

If the Knicks can move crawford for ford, nate for lowry, Curry for Artest they can start to clear salary which the goal I think it would be interesting to watch

Ford/Lowry
Artest/Marbury
Chandler/Balkman
Zach/Jefferies
Lee

Maybe we take a developing big, we allow artest to expire, if ford is healthy maybe we can move him to a team like the Blazers for cap space and have Lee, Chandler, a Draft choice, etc to to build around on a lower level, we can
TrueBlue
Posts: 29144
Alba Posts: 12
Joined: 9/20/2006
Member: #1172
5/11/2008  3:37 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by holfresh:

It's tough watching the younger teams in the league come of age while we are still playing the same game from Dolan's playbook...One would have thought the noise made/being made by New Orleans, Atanta, and Utah would have clued in this organization on the virtues of rebuilding...Apparently not...

One can only hope now this is part of a grander plan being orchestrated by Moses Stern...He did wonders for Boston and L.A....By the way, no one can ever convince me those trades were legit...Can the Knicks be far behind...


this is where the curry deal killed the team for a few years.


Probably the worst trade of them all because if we had hose two pics then I'd have a little confidence in bringing in someone like D'Antoni as far as instant gratification success. Then again if the Curry trade wasn't made would I SAY UGH still be in charge?
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
4949
Posts: 29378
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/25/2006
Member: #1126
USA
5/11/2008  3:43 PM
Posted by CrushAlot:

I think you are right on with your assessment. I think the other troubling things are that this move implies that Dolan is as involved as he was in the past. I also think that D'Antoni is going to burnout quick. Most coaches who have had the kind of run he has had need a year off because they are so into their job and it is so intense. It certainly will be intense for him once he is in NY. My biggest problems with the hire is that it is the same thing with a new pres. and that it appears again that rebuilding will not be happening.

Boy, you anti D'Antoni people will say anything' to bash this move, before it even got started. The guy hasn't even sign yet!

In a few years, I'm gonna be laughing my ass off on this board, reminding people of how clueless they've been about what the hell we been needing on this team. I believe we will be back in playoff contention in two years and no one's going to be bashing him anymore. I truly believe that our young cats will be thriving under D'Antoni soon enough. You'll see.
I'll never trust this' team again.
islesfan
Posts: 9999
Alba Posts: 37
Joined: 7/19/2004
Member: #712
5/11/2008  3:51 PM
Posted by 4949:
Posted by CrushAlot:

I think you are right on with your assessment. I think the other troubling things are that this move implies that Dolan is as involved as he was in the past. I also think that D'Antoni is going to burnout quick. Most coaches who have had the kind of run he has had need a year off because they are so into their job and it is so intense. It certainly will be intense for him once he is in NY. My biggest problems with the hire is that it is the same thing with a new pres. and that it appears again that rebuilding will not be happening.

Boy, you anti D'Antoni people will say anything' to bash this move, before it even got started. The guy hasn't even sign yet!

In a few years, I'm gonna be laughing my ass off on this board, reminding people of how clueless they've been about what the hell we been needing on this team. I believe we will be back in playoff contention in two years and no one's going to be bashing him anymore. I truly believe that our young cats will be thriving under D'Antoni soon enough. You'll see.

Nobody is saying that the Knicks won't win more games with D'Antoni. Most of us "Anti-D'Antoni people" think he'll get them to the playoffs sooner rather than later. But at what cost? No true rebuild but a short cut to mediocrity? No thanks.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
Page 3 of 5 ‹ Previous 1  2  3  4  5 Next ›
« Reply To Topic
The more things change, the more they stay the same..The presumptive D'Antoni hire..
Forum Index  ›  NY Knicks Forum

©2001-2025 ultimateknicks.comm All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.

Terms of Use and Privacy Policy