Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by NYKBocker:

I think this is a good trade for the Suns. This is a reactionary move from the Gasol trade but having Shaq will definately get them better. Losing Marion is no big deal since they still have Boris to man the SF spot. If KT can play for the Suns, then I think Shaq should not have any problems with their scheme. If Shaq accepts his role as defender and rebounder and then be the focal point on half court offense when they do slow it down(which is what? 6 times a game?) then this is an excellent trade for the Suns.

Not as much as he used to but Shaq still commands double teams and the Suns knock down 3's like no other. They should have even more wide open looks. Shaq was just as immobile last yr at times during the season but as we saw Kapono got paid, and James Posey was one of the league leaders in 3pt %.

Absolutely! This just enhances the Suns chances with the double and triple team that Shaq will command. Plus, Shaq now has the best PG in the world to give him the rock in the right place where he will not have to work hard to get to the basket. Watch the pick and roll with Shaq and Nash, this will be a killer. Plus the fact that Shaq is an exceptional passer and not just in-and-out passes from a double team but his interior passing is top rate where Amare will have a field day with easy dunks. Yeeesh..the rich get richer and the Knicks keeps getting...well...I honestly don't know what we are.

Posted by nysportsfan11:

Posted by TrueBlue:
It worked in 05-06 Diaw performed more than well. He kinda lost his way once Amare came back into the fray. The way I look at it Amare, Diaw, Shaq, Brian Skinner, Hill, Tucker are more than capable of handling any front court player in the West. Playoffs are about half court basketball and defense not Run N Gun and offense.

Boris' problem is that he's a natural at the 4. In '05-06, he was playing the 4 and sometimes the 5. He was quicker, smarter and more athletic than most players he was going up against on a nightly basis in the regular season. He also spread the floor and took opponents' best rebounders from the basket. You now put him at the 3 with Shaq and Amare. He worked much better with Shawn than he does Amare whose ball dominance hurts Diaw's Odom-like game. Amare's jumper is incredible compared to what it used to be, but he still likes to come across the lane for jump hooks and dunks...a lane that will now be filled by Shaq who is wholly ineffective outside of 8 feet.

The good thing for the Suns is that no one is going to double Shaq, yet you still have to double Amare. If Shaq moves his slow ass for the first time in 2 years, he'll get plenty of open looks off passes from Amare and Boris.

But defensively, having Shaq stand there and watch as all of the faster 4's and 5's in the west eat him alive or picking up cheap fouls when Tony, Chris, Deron, and almost every other point guard not named Fisher or Skip blow right past Nash on a nightly basis, is not helping the cause. Who is the person on the Suns that D'Antoni is going to call on in the 4th quarter to stop the opponent's best player? Shawn Marion guarded everyone from Parker to Dirk to Kobe to Duncan. Now what? Diaw? Hill? As bad as the Suns were defensively, they will be far worse now that they don't have Marion out there creating turnovers, forcing players into bad shots, and playing help side to make up for all of Nash, Barbosa and Amare's mistakes. Raja Bell can't do it alone.

I think you are under estimating Shaq. Can't teach size. The only thing he needs to do is stand ther in a zone and he will be fine. There won't be a lot of teams penetrating with Shaq manning the middle. It will make a lot of teams one dimensional offensively.

Posted by nysportsfan11:

Posted by TrueBlue:
It worked in 05-06 Diaw performed more than well. He kinda lost his way once Amare came back into the fray. The way I look at it Amare, Diaw, Shaq, Brian Skinner, Hill, Tucker are more than capable of handling any front court player in the West. Playoffs are about half court basketball and defense not Run N Gun and offense.

Boris' problem is that he's a natural at the 4. In '05-06, he was playing the 4 and sometimes the 5. He was quicker, smarter and more athletic than most players he was going up against on a nightly basis in the regular season. He also spread the floor and took opponents' best rebounders from the basket. You now put him at the 3 with Shaq and Amare. He worked much better with Shawn than he does Amare whose ball dominance hurts Diaw's Odom-like game. Amare's jumper is incredible compared to what it used to be, but he still likes to come across the lane for jump hooks and dunks...a lane that will now be filled by Shaq who is wholly ineffective outside of 8 feet.

The good thing for the Suns is that no one is going to double Shaq, yet you still have to double Amare. If Shaq moves his slow ass for the first time in 2 years, he'll get plenty of open looks off passes from Amare and Boris.

But defensively, having Shaq stand there and watch as all of the faster 4's and 5's in the west eat him alive or picking up cheap fouls when Tony, Chris, Deron, and almost every other point guard not named Fisher or Skip blow right past Nash on a nightly basis, is not helping the cause. Who is the person on the Suns that D'Antoni is going to call on in the 4th quarter to stop the opponent's best player? Shawn Marion guarded everyone from Parker to Dirk to Kobe to Duncan. Now what? Diaw? Hill? As bad as the Suns were defensively, they will be far worse now that they don't have Marion out there creating turnovers, forcing players into bad shots, and playing help side to make up for all of Nash, Barbosa and Amare's mistakes. Raja Bell can't do it alone.

The Suns are giving up 103ppg so Shawn Marion/Sunsn aren't/wasn't and isn't stopping anybody and for all the kudos Marion gets for giving Dirk fits 2yrs ago well guess what Steven Jackson/Al Harrington got into Dirks cakes last yr. It's best to say Dirk is a Sapp. Marion never guarded Duncan and if he did it was the Duncan with Plantar Faciatis.

PHX is trying to win now, and has never really had a reliable go-to guy and ideal half court player. This deal makes perfect sense to me.

For all of Amare, Marion and Nash's great ability, neither has carried that team to the Finals, despite winning many games, and this gives them a guy who's won titles, but finally gives them a SERIOUS half-court threat. Sure Amare can do that, but Shaq is one of the best down low players of all time. With the Suns great outside shooters the Suns will be lethal with Shaq, who is very good at passing out of double teams. It's a similar formula the Lakers and Miami used to win, and also having other superstars.

Shaq's old and expensive, but the Suns probably didn't want to sign Marion for years to a mega contract, when they may feel there best shot is over the next three (including this one). Nash is not young either, and he and Shaq's deals end the same year (if the Suns choose to take his option).

That's $33 million off of their cap going into the '10-'11 season. They're paying Marion a lot of money too, so it ain't like he's a bargain.

I don't think the Suns fiscal strategy is to not spend, but to spend wisely, with mindfulness for the future. They've probably traded picks, etc. at least in part due to having a stacked roster and no room for young guys. It's similar to how the Knicks did things in the 90's. They don't want young guys who aren't ready, they want guys who can help them win now.

That's what they're built for, so to me this deal makes perfect sense, especially with moves other Western teams are making.

Posted by djsunyc:

i'm not looking at this deal from a results point of view. i'm looking at it from a philosophical one.

like others have said, it's a risk, but it's a risk pheonix felt it had to make.

some factors:
- suns have yet to beat the spurs in the playoffs
- suns have yet to beat dallas in the playoffs
- lakers get gasol
- marion is a big time diva looking for a big time extension
- nash has 2 years left on his deal

if you're steve kerr, what do you do? the team is going to win 55 games regardless. do you think this team is ready to win a title?

obviously, he felt that it wasn't. kerr is from the old school that realizes you need a big man in the postseason. so he looked around and tried to find one that wouldn't kill their cap for multiple years and is a presence on the court that defenses may have to adjust to.

you have the best pg in the game so that could alleviate alot of worries if they could make it work. and with diaw on the roster, they won't need shaq alot during the regular season.

so, yes, you can call it a panic move, but i call it a calculated risk that i would've make if i was kerr. (i use the same reasoning to defend for denver trading for iverson last year).

again, yes, miami helped their team tremendously, but i think kerr made a LOW RISK/HIGH REWARD gamble since shaq only has 1 extra year than marion. let's not forget they have atlanta's pick too.

i also want to say that miami is 1 expiring trade away from catapulting to top 3 in the east next year. 2 deals away from possibly contending for a title. and both deals can easily be achieved.

Exactly, djsu.

Nash's and Shaq's deals end the same year.

Again, that's potentially $33 million off their cap after the '09-10 season.

Marion's contracts would be off the books by then too? Why not just wait him out and add a piece rather than replace him with one that may not fit?

Posted by VDesai:

103 PPG against for the Suns is misleading because of the pace at which they play. They really aren't so bad from a points given up per possession standpoint, or in a points differential standpoint. Marion was a catalyst for the fastbreak b/c of his stls and turnovers.

And you could say the more poss/gm the more chances at stls, turnovers, gambles on D, etc etc etc. Championship teams don't win because they fast break their way to the trophy(Sans Lakers). They win with defense and great half court execution.

Posted by VDesai:

Marion's contracts would be off the books by then too? Why not just wait him out and add a piece rather than replace him with one that may not fit?

There are probably two major factors (with other sub-factors) all relating to the Suns desire to win a title ASAP:

1) The Suns must be concerned that they will not be able to beat the top West teams as is, or if Shaq landed on a different top West team they'd be in even bigger trouble. Apparently, the rumor was that after the Gasol deal that the Mavs were trying to swing a deal with Miami for Shaq too, and the Suns got nervous.

2) Marion wants to get re-signed after this season, not after next year. He's not gonna take the player option, most likely, because he wants a big deal now, a la Rashard Lewis. If the Suns don't think they can win in the West with Marion, why would they decide to re-sign him to a long term mega deal, which he wants now, and what are the long term implications for the team if they keep him for 6-7 more years after this one given that the team has not won, Nash is getting old, and Marion relies on athletic ability to perform?

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by VDesai:

103 PPG against for the Suns is misleading because of the pace at which they play. They really aren't so bad from a points given up per possession standpoint, or in a points differential standpoint. Marion was a catalyst for the fastbreak b/c of his stls and turnovers.

And you could say the more poss/gm the more chances at stls, turnovers, gambles on D, etc etc etc. Championship teams don't win because they fast break their way to the trophy(Sans Lakers). They win with defense and great half court execution.

Exactly, we have not seen a fast break team, since the Showtime Lakers, win a title. It's almost always half-court teams who play D.

I also agree with King, somewhat, about Marion being part of the system. For all of his talent, he is not a go-to player. Do the Suns want to be locked up with him given that, and other factors like the team's window for winning given Nash's age, etc.?

You get more rebounds steals and blocks when you have more posessions per game. The reason Phoenix loses in the playoffs is because they cant score in the hallf court set and you can with Shaq. Everybody wants to look at talent as equal trades. We got more talent in trading for Zach, Mo Taylor, Steve Francis and look where the Knicks are at right now. Great point guards make players look at Mikki Moore in Sacramento vs when he had Kidd feeding him the ball. Phoenix is a great organization and there is a reason they gto rid of Marion

Posted by VDesai:

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by VDesai:

103 PPG against for the Suns is misleading because of the pace at which they play. They really aren't so bad from a points given up per possession standpoint, or in a points differential standpoint. Marion was a catalyst for the fastbreak b/c of his stls and turnovers.

And you could say the more poss/gm the more chances at stls, turnovers, gambles on D, etc etc etc. Championship teams don't win because they fast break their way to the trophy(Sans Lakers). They win with defense and great half court execution.

That is true, but the point remains- Suns actually rank 11th according to Knickerblogger in pts given up per 100 possessions. Miami, with slow plodding Shaq is 25th. Shaq is not a defensive enforcer at this point in his career- and while he's had years where's blocked shots and cleaned the glass- he's never been 100% committed there. Marion was a good 1 on 1 and help player for the Suns. He cleaned up mistakes for them.

It's all about the Post Season and Shaq has proven himself there Marion hasn't.