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I have a feeling we are going to do something with Sacremento
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tkf
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1/17/2008  11:32 AM
Posted by purple012870:

Why in the world would we acquire Artest for anything of value? Does he have ability? Sure. Is he a home-wrecker (and our home has already been wrecked beyond recognition)? Will he be around when we're finally ready to win? No way, that's 3-4 league suspensions from now. So what's the point?

How to fix the Knicks is easy?

1. Keep IT until end of season, insure losing ways for draft lottery odds.
2. Take any opportunity to trade EC, ZR, Q-Crap. But not at the expense of taking back worse contracts.
3. Be open to trading Craw, Nate, Balk but only if good young, cheap value is returned.
4. Don't trade Lee unless its part of a package that returns a player that doesn't have severe flaws in character & is a young all-star or core player of a winning team.
5. Don't touch the next draft pick.
6. Fire Isiah at season's end.
7. Promise a young competent GM (Mullin) that Dolan won't get in his way.
8. Draft one of the young studs (i.e. Beasley, Gordon).
9. Hire a coach who appreciates & teaches actual team basketball (JVG, Carlisle).
10. Apologize to fans for 2003-2008 fiasco.


great post, sounds like a real plan.. sign me up..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
AUTOADVERT
nyk4ever
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1/17/2008  11:34 AM
Posted by King1:

Bitty I am not saying David is a better player than Z-Bo but please answer these questions.
1. Why did Portland trade Zach for virtually nothing and they are a better team?
2. Why did David get picked to practice with the Olympic team and Zach didnt?
3. The Knicks could trade Lee tomorrow to probably 20 teams and no one wants Zach.
Lee is a complimentary player and on a good team he would help them. Zach is all about me will never win and has character issues.

Bitty, I'm not trying to gang up on you but I think King has a point.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
King1
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1/17/2008  11:37 AM
GM in the league see more value in Lee then Z-BO. If you traded Lee right now you could get a top 15 pick easy or an established player.
Klytus
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1/17/2008  11:38 AM
Posted by Masterplan:
Posted by Klytus:

If Sacramento offered Ron Artest for David Lee, you pull the trigger.

let me guess, if portland offers zach randolph for channing frye you do the same? eddy curry for a few picks? steve francis for trevor ariza?

ugh. let me know when can we stop trading for overhyped selfish headcase "stars."

Ron Artest is not Zach Randolph or Steve Francis.

And Channing Frye stinks.
King1
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1/17/2008  11:44 AM
The reason this team is so bad right now is you have selfish players and character problems. Artest is a great basketball player and a serious head case. I guarantee Sacramento would take Lee for Artest in a heartbeat.
Masterplan
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1/17/2008  11:50 AM
Posted by Klytus:
Posted by Masterplan:
Posted by Klytus:

If Sacramento offered Ron Artest for David Lee, you pull the trigger.

let me guess, if portland offers zach randolph for channing frye you do the same? eddy curry for a few picks? steve francis for trevor ariza?

ugh. let me know when can we stop trading for overhyped selfish headcase "stars."

Ron Artest is not Zach Randolph or Steve Francis.

And Channing Frye stinks.

so your answer is "yes?" thanks for the last 4 years isiah!

[Edited by - Masterplan on 01-17-2008 11:53 AM]
TMS
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1/17/2008  11:55 AM
Posted by King1:

Bitty I am not saying David is a better player than Z-Bo but please answer these questions.
1. Why did Portland trade Zach for virtually nothing and they are a better team?
2. Why did David get picked to practice with the Olympic team and Zach didnt?
3. The Knicks could trade Lee tomorrow to probably 20 teams and no one wants Zach.
Lee is a complimentary player and on a good team he would help them. Zach is all about me will never win and has character issues.

plus he's a lot better looking.

btw, to whoever said Bibby's contract is an albatross - it runs the same length as Mebury's does & it would cost less dollars in overall value... the albatross contract in this scenario would be Brad Miller's, which runs a year longer than both, but it would have no bearing on our longterm cap situation because we already have Zach, Curry, Jamal, Jefferies, Turd & Q Rich signed up over the longterm.

btw, in order to make a deal like this, you'd need to throw in Malik's contract to match up the dollars instead of Fred Jones... if we could get those players w/o giving up Lee, then i'm all for this deal, but since Lee is the player SAC wants, you have to ask yourself why they'd give up an Allstar player like Artest & a former Allstar like Bibby to acquire him.

replace D Lee & the filler contract with Curry & i'd be willing to take a flyer on a deal like this.

C - Miller / Morris / Turd
PF - Zach / D Lee / Malik
SF - Artest / Balkman / Jefferies
SG - Jamal / Q Rich / Jones
PG - Bibby / Nate / Mardy

that really is not all that bad a roster... playoff calibre & you still have your core of youth to build with going into the future along w/that lottery pick.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
iyamwutiam
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1/17/2008  11:56 AM
Posted by nyk4ever:

[quote]Posted by King1:

Bitty I am not saying David is a better player than Z-Bo but please answer these questions.
1. Why did Portland trade Zach for virtually nothing and they are a better team?
2. Why did David get picked to practice with the Olympic team and Zach didnt?
3. The Knicks could trade Lee tomorrow to probably 20 teams and no one wants Zach.
Lee is a complimentary player and on a good team he would help them. Zach is all about me will never win and has character issues.

First of all - I think people need to stop hating on a guy who hasn't played for this team -yet- a full year. Second- we were lucky to get Z. Randolph is a way. The reason we got Zach was:
1. They had Aldridge and they didn't want to keep Zach's Salary. They felt that with Aldridge being the 'future' it would hamper his development to have to play both Zach and he.
2. We got Zach - because Francis still had a 40M dollar contract-which te Knicks felt they wanted to buy out -so they could play more Nate/Crawford. In essence- we traded a 40M dollar liability for a 60M dollar liability wh is 5 years younger, can rebound and may actually have upside since he has no history of chronic injuries (a la TMac, Francis).

Since coming here -even with limited minutes - he leads the teamm in rebounding, and will average a double double for his 5th year IN A ROW. He provides a lot of versatility :
1. Cury/Randolph- can give you a hybrid center that gets 25 pts/16 rebounds a night.
2. Randolph/Lee gives you a PF combo that gets you 20 pts/20 rebounds a night

This allows you to play Jeffries/Lee at the SF - which gives you a big frontline -where atleast one player can 'consistently' hit the 12-15 footer and space the floor for your center and other shooter.

Not one player in terms fo Crawford, Curry, Randolph is a bonafide superstar- but :
1. Curry is a genuine threat in the post - as he proved against Chicago and all last year
2. Randolph -not only rebounds - but he does help space the floow because he is a threat from 15 feet and in.
3. He allows both Balkman and Frye to play onthe floor at the same time - by making up in offense along with Crawford/Robinson what Balkman and Fryegive up on offense.

People 'say' no one wants Zach - but there are very few PFs that have averaged double/doubles in the NBA over 5/6 years they have been in the league. While his salary may be expensive - the best thing to do is keep him -defintiely this year. He is showing that he is trying to fit in - he my be a bit passionate about getting his minutes and 'numbers' - but if he wasn't - he wouldn't be where he was.

If we keep himt this year and he ends up with double/double number - turns into a 'team' player (as far as perception is considered). He would be invaluable + expiring contracts for someone like a Kobe/ Le Bron/ O neal- if there ever was a sign/trade forced by any of the three. Regardless- I think we can see that there is a benefit -if he learns to play as he did last nite. He never seemed to be a 'key' guy at any point of the game - yet had 24 points/11 rebounds and was a plus 25!! The Nets started sliding out to him - and bam - they fed Curry in the post - and it was over. They had no aswer for this- go outside -and Curry punishes you inside. Go to a zone and if Randolph is shotting well - he punnishes you from the intermediate area.


Klytus
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1/17/2008  12:13 PM
Posted by Masterplan:
Posted by Klytus:
Posted by Masterplan:
Posted by Klytus:

If Sacramento offered Ron Artest for David Lee, you pull the trigger.

let me guess, if portland offers zach randolph for channing frye you do the same? eddy curry for a few picks? steve francis for trevor ariza?

ugh. let me know when can we stop trading for overhyped selfish headcase "stars."

Ron Artest is not Zach Randolph or Steve Francis.

And Channing Frye stinks.

so your answer is "yes?" thanks for the last 4 years isiah!

[Edited by - Masterplan on 01-17-2008 11:53 AM]

Huh? I hate Isiah Thomas with all my passion.
King1
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1/17/2008  12:14 PM
I want a guy that cries to the coach he wants traded during the game when things get tough. I want a guy that has been a perennial loser and Portland traded him because he was a head case. The dont draft LA if Zach is the future.
TrueBlue
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1/17/2008  12:17 PM
Posted by tkf:
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by tkf:
Posted by TrueBlue:

Reggie Theus recently told reporters he wants to coach Bibby and Artest. Their team has now come around to being healthy. Bibby scored 20pts in his first game back he's not washed up but his contract is an albatross. Theus acknowledges to Sac media the trade discussions are out of hands. So it's more about Petrie trying to swindle I SAY UGH than anything else. It's why Sac media is leaking all this info on us along with New Jersey. Theus wants the team in tact as much as possible. Their record isn't all that bad considering their injury issues and conference they play in.

he had 19 points and no assists.. bibby is just a jump shooting PG, he can't beat anyone off the dribble,and is a shell of his old self.... If he is not washed up, he is damn near close to it...


He's never been a high assist man his whole career, 5ast/gm even during their Contending run. To get 20pts first game of the yr isn't blow you away impressive but shooting 7-12fg and snagging 6reb 4-7 from downtown is not too shabby. Plus he was playing 2guard during stretches of the game.

Do you see any need for bibby here in NY? that makes as much sense as winning 33 games this year as some of you would like to put it.... right? You know what. I would much rather cut lee , straight out cut him, then trade him for bibby....



I don't want Bibby only because of his contract but he could be of good use here outside of that. I don't think he's washed up. If we're talking about dumping Salary to get him I'd be willing to listen not necessarily pulling the trigger. Say Randolph, Lee, for Bibby, Justin Williams, and their first rounder. We save $35mil in cap room down the road dumping Zach and get a pick somewhere in the high teens to 20th pick. We'd have Bibby, Marbury, and Malik's expirings for next yr. We could swing those contracts into picks and Trade Exceptions galore. I want to do a full rebuild and a trade such as this would be enticing. Or even Curry instead of Zach if it's possible.


[Edited by - TrueBlue on 01-17-2008 11:26 AM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
TrueBlue
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1/17/2008  12:18 PM
Posted by tkf:
Posted by purple012870:

Why in the world would we acquire Artest for anything of value? Does he have ability? Sure. Is he a home-wrecker (and our home has already been wrecked beyond recognition)? Will he be around when we're finally ready to win? No way, that's 3-4 league suspensions from now. So what's the point?

How to fix the Knicks is easy?

1. Keep IT until end of season, insure losing ways for draft lottery odds.
2. Take any opportunity to trade EC, ZR, Q-Crap. But not at the expense of taking back worse contracts.
3. Be open to trading Craw, Nate, Balk but only if good young, cheap value is returned.
4. Don't trade Lee unless its part of a package that returns a player that doesn't have severe flaws in character & is a young all-star or core player of a winning team.
5. Don't touch the next draft pick.
6. Fire Isiah at season's end.
7. Promise a young competent GM (Mullin) that Dolan won't get in his way.
8. Draft one of the young studs (i.e. Beasley, Gordon).
9. Hire a coach who appreciates & teaches actual team basketball (JVG, Carlisle).
10. Apologize to fans for 2003-2008 fiasco.


great post, sounds like a real plan.. sign me up..


But you'd have to root for losses or at the very least encourage it, if you think idea number 1 sounds good and you said you can't do that as a fan.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 01-17-2008 11:23 AM]
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
franco12
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1/17/2008  12:23 PM
Posted by Masterplan:
Posted by Klytus:

If Sacramento offered Ron Artest for David Lee, you pull the trigger.

let me guess, if portland offers zach randolph for channing frye you do the same? eddy curry for a few picks? steve francis for trevor ariza?

ugh. let me know when can we stop trading for overhyped selfish headcase "stars."

you forgot to add 'overpaid' and 'washed up'!
tkf
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1/17/2008  12:26 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by tkf:
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by tkf:
Posted by TrueBlue:

Reggie Theus recently told reporters he wants to coach Bibby and Artest. Their team has now come around to being healthy. Bibby scored 20pts in his first game back he's not washed up but his contract is an albatross. Theus acknowledges to Sac media the trade discussions are out of hands. So it's more about Petrie trying to swindle I SAY UGH than anything else. It's why Sac media is leaking all this info on us along with New Jersey. Theus wants the team in tact as much as possible. Their record isn't all that bad considering their injury issues and conference they play in.

he had 19 points and no assists.. bibby is just a jump shooting PG, he can't beat anyone off the dribble,and is a shell of his old self.... If he is not washed up, he is damn near close to it...


He's never been a high assist man his whole career, 5ast/gm even during their Contending run. To get 20pts first game of the yr isn't blow you away impressive but shooting 7-12fg and snagging 6reb 4-7 from downtown is not too shabby. Plus he was playing 2guard during stretches of the game.

Do you see any need for bibby here in NY? that makes as much sense as winning 33 games this year as some of you would like to put it.... right? You know what. I would much rather cut lee , straight out cut him, then trade him for bibby....



I don't want Bibby only because of his contract but he could be of good use here outside of that. I don't think he's washed up. If we're talking about dumping Salary to get him I'd be willing to listen not necessarily pulling the trigger. Say Randolph, Lee, for Bibby, Justin Williams, and their first rounder. We save $35mil in cap room down the road dumping Zach and get a pick somewhere in the high teens to 20th pick. We'd have Bibby, Marbury, and Malik's expirings for next yr. We could swing those contracts into picks and Trade Exceptions galore. I want to do a full rebuild and a trade such as this would be enticing.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 01-17-2008 11:23 AM]


I feel you, I just don't completely agree, but I can see where you are headed here...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
franco12
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1/17/2008  12:30 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by tkf:
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by tkf:
Posted by TrueBlue:

Reggie Theus recently told reporters he wants to coach Bibby and Artest. Their team has now come around to being healthy. Bibby scored 20pts in his first game back he's not washed up but his contract is an albatross. Theus acknowledges to Sac media the trade discussions are out of hands. So it's more about Petrie trying to swindle I SAY UGH than anything else. It's why Sac media is leaking all this info on us along with New Jersey. Theus wants the team in tact as much as possible. Their record isn't all that bad considering their injury issues and conference they play in.

he had 19 points and no assists.. bibby is just a jump shooting PG, he can't beat anyone off the dribble,and is a shell of his old self.... If he is not washed up, he is damn near close to it...


He's never been a high assist man his whole career, 5ast/gm even during their Contending run. To get 20pts first game of the yr isn't blow you away impressive but shooting 7-12fg and snagging 6reb 4-7 from downtown is not too shabby. Plus he was playing 2guard during stretches of the game.

Do you see any need for bibby here in NY? that makes as much sense as winning 33 games this year as some of you would like to put it.... right? You know what. I would much rather cut lee , straight out cut him, then trade him for bibby....



I don't want Bibby only because of his contract but he could be of good use here outside of that. I don't think he's washed up. If we're talking about dumping Salary to get him I'd be willing to listen not necessarily pulling the trigger. Say Randolph, Lee, for Bibby, Justin Williams, and their first rounder. We save $35mil in cap room down the road dumping Zach and get a pick somewhere in the high teens to 20th pick. We'd have Bibby, Marbury, and Malik's expirings for next yr. We could swing those contracts into picks and Trade Exceptions galore. I want to do a full rebuild and a trade such as this would be enticing. Or even Curry instead of Zach if it's possible.


[Edited by - TrueBlue on 01-17-2008 11:26 AM]

the problem I have is that what your stipulating - a trade of zach & lee for cap flexibility and a first rounder- basically shows we overpaid for zach in the first place and we're stuck with a bad contract.

I'd rather work to rehab zach's value - and I think things are starting to come around- and then try to unload him for a shorter deal from a contending team.
tkf
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1/17/2008  12:42 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by tkf:
Posted by purple012870:

Why in the world would we acquire Artest for anything of value? Does he have ability? Sure. Is he a home-wrecker (and our home has already been wrecked beyond recognition)? Will he be around when we're finally ready to win? No way, that's 3-4 league suspensions from now. So what's the point?

How to fix the Knicks is easy?

1. Keep IT until end of season, insure losing ways for draft lottery odds.
2. Take any opportunity to trade EC, ZR, Q-Crap. But not at the expense of taking back worse contracts.
3. Be open to trading Craw, Nate, Balk but only if good young, cheap value is returned.
4. Don't trade Lee unless its part of a package that returns a player that doesn't have severe flaws in character & is a young all-star or core player of a winning team.
5. Don't touch the next draft pick.
6. Fire Isiah at season's end.
7. Promise a young competent GM (Mullin) that Dolan won't get in his way.
8. Draft one of the young studs (i.e. Beasley, Gordon).
9. Hire a coach who appreciates & teaches actual team basketball (JVG, Carlisle).
10. Apologize to fans for 2003-2008 fiasco.


great post, sounds like a real plan.. sign me up..


But you'd have to root for losses or at the very least encourage it, if you think idea number 1 sounds good and you said you can't do that as a fan.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 01-17-2008 11:23 AM]

there is a difference in accepting losses and in rooting for your team to lose.. big difference bro...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
King1
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1/17/2008  12:46 PM
Name one deal where we have saved money and got better players with zero baggage? We are going to get fleeced on any trade we do unless Isiah gets fired
TrueBlue
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1/17/2008  12:48 PM
Posted by franco12:
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by tkf:
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by tkf:
Posted by TrueBlue:

Reggie Theus recently told reporters he wants to coach Bibby and Artest. Their team has now come around to being healthy. Bibby scored 20pts in his first game back he's not washed up but his contract is an albatross. Theus acknowledges to Sac media the trade discussions are out of hands. So it's more about Petrie trying to swindle I SAY UGH than anything else. It's why Sac media is leaking all this info on us along with New Jersey. Theus wants the team in tact as much as possible. Their record isn't all that bad considering their injury issues and conference they play in.

he had 19 points and no assists.. bibby is just a jump shooting PG, he can't beat anyone off the dribble,and is a shell of his old self.... If he is not washed up, he is damn near close to it...


He's never been a high assist man his whole career, 5ast/gm even during their Contending run. To get 20pts first game of the yr isn't blow you away impressive but shooting 7-12fg and snagging 6reb 4-7 from downtown is not too shabby. Plus he was playing 2guard during stretches of the game.

Do you see any need for bibby here in NY? that makes as much sense as winning 33 games this year as some of you would like to put it.... right? You know what. I would much rather cut lee , straight out cut him, then trade him for bibby....



I don't want Bibby only because of his contract but he could be of good use here outside of that. I don't think he's washed up. If we're talking about dumping Salary to get him I'd be willing to listen not necessarily pulling the trigger. Say Randolph, Lee, for Bibby, Justin Williams, and their first rounder. We save $35mil in cap room down the road dumping Zach and get a pick somewhere in the high teens to 20th pick. We'd have Bibby, Marbury, and Malik's expirings for next yr. We could swing those contracts into picks and Trade Exceptions galore. I want to do a full rebuild and a trade such as this would be enticing. Or even Curry instead of Zach if it's possible.


[Edited by - TrueBlue on 01-17-2008 11:26 AM]

the problem I have is that what your stipulating - a trade of zach & lee for cap flexibility and a first rounder- basically shows we overpaid for zach in the first place and we're stuck with a bad contract.


I'd rather work to rehab zach's value - and I think things are starting to come around- and then try to unload him for a shorter deal from a contending team.


This is the crossroads in which we're at. We overreached for Zach even considering what we gave up to get him. His value is/was/will be low as long as he's a Knick. We have to take a healthy dose of humility and start owning up to our mistakes. Portland dumped Zach with no problem, why do we feel this inherent desire or need to make a wrong work out, we've been doing it for so long and have failed at every instance. If the consensus is we didn't give up much to get Zach why can't we settle with pennies on the dollar for him at this point. Are you telling me our Mojo should be trade for malcontents and spend yrs building their value up while they tear down our franchise? It's essentially an OxyMORON Philosophy.
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
franco12
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1/17/2008  12:49 PM
Posted by King1:

Name one deal where we have saved money and got better players with zero baggage? We are going to get fleeced on any trade we do unless Isiah gets fired

I asked a similar question on another thread- basically, our last really good trade: Oak for Camby.
TrueBlue
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1/17/2008  12:49 PM
Posted by tkf:
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by tkf:
Posted by purple012870:

Why in the world would we acquire Artest for anything of value? Does he have ability? Sure. Is he a home-wrecker (and our home has already been wrecked beyond recognition)? Will he be around when we're finally ready to win? No way, that's 3-4 league suspensions from now. So what's the point?

How to fix the Knicks is easy?

1. Keep IT until end of season, insure losing ways for draft lottery odds.
2. Take any opportunity to trade EC, ZR, Q-Crap. But not at the expense of taking back worse contracts.
3. Be open to trading Craw, Nate, Balk but only if good young, cheap value is returned.
4. Don't trade Lee unless its part of a package that returns a player that doesn't have severe flaws in character & is a young all-star or core player of a winning team.
5. Don't touch the next draft pick.
6. Fire Isiah at season's end.
7. Promise a young competent GM (Mullin) that Dolan won't get in his way.
8. Draft one of the young studs (i.e. Beasley, Gordon).
9. Hire a coach who appreciates & teaches actual team basketball (JVG, Carlisle).
10. Apologize to fans for 2003-2008 fiasco.


great post, sounds like a real plan.. sign me up..


But you'd have to root for losses or at the very least encourage it, if you think idea number 1 sounds good and you said you can't do that as a fan.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 01-17-2008 11:23 AM]

there is a difference in accepting losses and in rooting for your team to lose.. big difference bro...


Explain to me how you INSURE losses without encouraging them?
LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
I have a feeling we are going to do something with Sacremento

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