aw, isles ain't any worse than the lovers/stalkers (earl, papa, rembee, etc) who attacked anyone who had a negative comment about the job zeke's done. let's see if iyamwutiam can back up some of his statements when they’re challenged. fair game to him.

Posted by oohah:

aw, isles ain't any worse than the lovers/stalkers (earl, papa, rembee, etc) who attacked anyone who had a negative comment about the job zeke's done. let's see if iyamwutiam can back up some of his statements when they’re challenged. fair game to him.

You seriously don't think "Islesfan" is any worse than Earl and Rembee? Those guys are fans while "Islesfan" just has a scary thing going with Isiah that reminds me of the Selena incident.

Rembee and Earl haven't spent 90% of their posts attacking other posters. They aren't mean spirited. They write in full sentences. They actually look at historical context. Have you ever seen those 2 chase anyone around calling them names whertever they post for years? Do they dedicate their footers to attacking other posters?

Come on Marv, get serious. Comparing Earl to "Islesfan" is like comparing Al Franken to Anne Coulter. Just to be clear, "Islesfan" is Coulter in this analogy...
oohah

oohah, earl was a very witty and clever poster with an extremely thin skin and a propensity for insidious, inflammatory reactions to people. a prime example was a thread someone started called "marbury is an enigma," which certainly seems like an apt term to use in describing him. what's earl's contribution then? he posts yeah marbury's an e"nig"ma all right. he regularly insinuated people were responding racially if they wanted to discuss marbury, zeke, curry, crawford, etc. in any terms other that the ones he dictated. then of course he would dodge and run and hide when confronted. at least papa had the integrity to just blurt his crap straight out.

Posted by oohah:

iyamwutiam -- I want to thank you for coming in and providing some historical context to offset the "hysterical context" that pervades this forum.

You did get a couple of facts wrong, but the overall thrust of your argument should be well received by anyone who was actually following the Knicks and is old enough to remember 7 years back: Isiah took over a team that was falling off a cliff. He did not ruin a good team. He did not push it off of the cliff. He's been trying like hell to pull it back, but he has screwed up many times.

The team Isiah took over was capped out and not getting under it anytime soon because of Houston's contract. The core of the team was all heading for retirement with the exception of Kurt Thomas.

Yes, Isiah tried to go the quick-fix route and he has to take a lot of the blame. If people don't realize that Dolan is the driving force behind that approach they probably haven't been watching. Meanwhile, those who espouse "breaking it down" will list all of the quick fixes Isiah missed out on if he GM'ed perfectly. And lament his not fixing it quick. Then they will tell you all the quick fixes that should be made now, starting with the ultimate quick fix of a new GM who will of course not try to make any quick fixes except the perfect ones in their fantasy land.

***

Anybody who takes over from Isiah will have a lot easier job than he was handed: This team can get under the cap now if they choose that route (Unlikely). This team has tradeable some assets that another team might actually want.

Patience is a virtue. In New York, it is often preached but rarely practiced.

***

iyamwutiam, A fair warning to you. Designated forum hard-on "Islesfan" already has a hard on for you. He really is not here as a basketball fan, he is a troll. As you can see, he has already violated forum rules by calling you an idiot even though you have not engaged him, and I think he should be reprimanded.

"Islesfan", you're out of line. Stop being an ass for once in your life.

iyamwutiam, if you continue to post here and attempt to provide context of what Isiah stepped into, rather tearing at him, "Islesfan" will follow you around like a rabid poodle calling you names and trying to bury you in simple-mindedness, because he has very little knowledge of the game. He simply has a disturbing "Mark David Chapman-esque" homoerotic fixation on Isiah Thomas that is a little scary.

Also, you should get ready to be called names by many others because extremism is generally more accepted than a level-headed view of what is and what was.

oohah

Violations run rampant in this post, as an attempt at reprimanding and exposing was done.


I'm not surprised!

Posted by iyamwutiam:

I have never said Isiah was perfect- however what I have asked people to do is to think in real word terms:
1. As has been generally agreed upon - the Knicks rostyer he inherited (historically/factually) is the worst roster in any professional sports in the last 35 years. Again - I am not disparaging the players or anything like that. I am saying -find ONE team (onyl one) where 80 percent or more of any team in professional sports is not in the league. Also - the same people Colangelo, Mullin, West who are 'calling' now - did not pick up the phone when Dolan called in 2003- when he was set to fire Layden- again - in terms of logic (if sounds like hoofbeats -think horses not zebras)- this is because no one wanted to walk into such a bad situation.

2. Generally candidates that are the 'first' choice for xtreme make-overs in such kinds of jobs -get paid big money and have extended contracts (atleast 5 years) as can be seen from Scott Layden's previous contract (7 yrs/30 million guaranteed) or Pat Riley (guanranteed with part ownership of team). Has as already been noted and agreed to- Isiah was a 'last ditch' candidate. He was signed for nominal mney and a nominla contract- (I doubt any owner was not aware of the shadows of the CBA/Indiana and Toronto that followed Isiah). Lets remember he was signed in Dec of 2003- so we can for fairness sake say he didn't really start till say January 15th of 2004 . This is important - as people should realize that it is not his 4th year- not 5th year.

3. So given that Dolan could bring no 'extablished' GM to the front office - he chose to get Isiah and put him on a tight leash. This would explain - the emergence of two hall of fame coaches whowere basically jobless-and have remained jobless (exceptfor the indulgence of the Knicks)- namely- Wilkens and Brown. In this context- 'last choice' for a job no one wanted, shady past of trouble - any one who has ever held a job - would HAVE to concede that you don't get the same purview as say Parcells does when he signs on a team. Further it can be agreed upon - again - from the roster - that since Houston was never going to play again - the roster contained too many guys that had no 'showtime' appeal.

4. So here we are with the richest franchise in the NBA -talking achance on a guy who has a bad rep- mainly because they couldn't find anyone else willing to take the job that was established. They hire Isiah as a last resort , have an aging -salary capped roster with over 300 million dollars in committed salaries -of which 100 million goes to a guy who will never play again - and has a rule named after him -"Allan Houston" rule. Houston despite the honor of having a rule named after -refused to opt out of his contract and rather chose to havetheKnicks pay him all the years left on a contract of which 80 percent he never played (my hereo!!).

5. As I satated earlier- no way - a guy like Isiah - who's claim to fame is those first round draft picks with Toronto and getting Jermaine O Neal, Artest, Brad Miller - goes out and GIVES UP_ two number one draft picks for a guy who is knwn as tainted goods for being selfish and a poor leader from Coast to Coast - or should I say from Minnesota to NJ. It is not implausible - that withthe new era- Dolan really felt he needed a box office guy that would appeal to NY fans - the only one available was Marbury.

Before people start rushing in and saying -oh thats alie and it was all Isiah. Review the context- we all knew the team was being blown up. Isiah's history of picking via the draft and trading for 'YOUNG" players - basically this flies in the face of the approach Isiah has always taken. So anyway - we give up TWO FIRST ROUND picks for Marbury- and Phoenix is nice and throws us back one -later in terms of robinson.

6. Wilkens- I am not going to get into -I would rather move onto Larry brown - who did way more damage to the Knicks. First - let me remind everyone - Isiah Thomas did coach the Pacers- for three years and was 'selected' to be the coach at the all -star game - an honor reserved for good coaches. Therefore - it would besilly to think -that Isiah doesn't think he can coach or wouldn't want to coach. However- we can all agree - that as the 'new kid on the block' - he had to 'pay his dues' and keep his mouth shut- 'till he can win the trust of the organization". All this is the modern day equivalent of going into a f**ked up organization, not calling anyone out and unfortunately only being able to pick a battle with a documented personnel person who didn't even know what players were onthe team.

Anyway - back to Larry Brown- he became the HIGHEST paid coach in the history of te NBA at that point by signing with the Knicks. Coming off a championship from the Pistons and benig replaced - because he refused to play younger players - in Philadelphia and Detroit and develop any talent.

Why would Isiah actually do this-when he had stated from day one - his plan -if it was EVER allowed to be implemented was to build the team up thru youth as he had done in Toronto and Indiana. So- again - he takes the fall for Larry Brown hiring - 'because he is the GM'. I am sure many of us have taken similar falls for our boss- if in a management position. That is 'your' role in the heirarchy of business or governement or any managerial position.

OK- so onto LB. He comes in and as any OLD , established coach - tries to do two things. Show he is the boss and get some of his old players to implement 'hi' system. Parcells des this EVRYWHERE- where hasn't he taklen Bledsoe/Testaverde/Keyshawn and Jumbo Elliot?!? So as usual you have two plans going on:
1. Plan A- keep the seats filled - via Marbury and LArry Brown- keep the show going - as they have always done with Riley/Van Gundy/Layden etc. Keep the team in cap hell but for god sakes - keep the fans coming.
2. Plan B- whatever Isiah can pull of his with his 'little' draft picks and if he actually gets lucky and pulls out a superstar in the laste first or second round -well even better- after - al thats the only reason he is here.

Larry Brown trades away the most versatile small forward we have - Trevor Arriza - to get an injured, upset Steve Francis - so he can 'show' Marbury - that hey - I can get a 20 million dollar a year player like you - overnite and replace your ass. He then promptly gets two of his older players who have un-necessarily humongous salaries and are helping no one - Antonio Davis and Jalen Rose- mainly Rose. Did anyone ever stop ad consider that on paper- Crawford/MArbury are basically younger healthier versions of Rose/Francis- why would you get a pair of the same exact players. Very simple- its he new guy -who comes inwith the all the golry- trying to show the guy (who got the job because no one wanted it) -'that anything you can do I can do better and faster". Same ole **** -just a different work environment.

So what happens- Larry Brown goes 24-58 on his first season. No reason to fire the man - we al knew it would take a few years for his system to take effect- look at Philadelphia it took them around 5 years. So he was NOT fired for ONE season- he was fired for adding on close to 80 million dollars of salary which Isiah had to clean up. 30 millon went t Rose for a buy out of a player -whom we have a clone of in Crawford, and another 40 million for another clone of Marbury who was even more dissatisifed as to how he is not getting his 'props'. In addition- we had te lumbering defensive specialist (cause I had one good year in the playoffs) Jerome James. This is evident because all 3 players have not seen the light of day since LB left. So -gain - the simplest explanation s that they were ALL LBs doing and -as usual with the glory boys- they don't car what stuff costs the 'team' r the orgainzation - as they are golden and have golden parachutes that allow them to make 28 million dollars -for only one year of coaching !!!


The amount of damage done to the Knicks in this one year is what got Larry Brown not only fired - but fired with acrimony. So -once again - in comes isiah to cleanup the mess. What can you do? Not much - buy out Jalen Rose -for 30 million as no one will take him. Tel Paul Allen - you will take his problem (Randolph @ 60 million) for your problem (Francis @40 million) -and throw in a promising player who yet to fulfill his potential the number 8 pick in thedraft- and of course Portland throws some fill in garbage with Dickau/Jones and a second round pick.

So you have effectively set your tema back an additional two years. One year with LB, one year buying out Jalen Rose and looking for someone anyone to take Steve Francis off your hands and you gave up two good draft picks mainly Frye and Arriza. In effect - you have taken two steps back -spent 30 M in a buy out and gave up two prospects for your future - because of one egotistical, overspending coach.

Allow me - to digress for one second here- as i can point out to you - that it cost us even more than just that. Curry had just led the Bulls in scoring an FG% the year before Lb got in. They were set to keep Curry and move Chandler. What happened- the heart issue and then - thegall to ask the player to take a genetic test. Curry refused and all of a sudden - Chicago was in a bind. Everyone knows this. So we could have had Curry for even less- but guess what - Antonio Davis-LB wanted him badly - till he actually got on the court and also told his old coach - he just wants to go home to Toronto. Paxson -is sitting there- knows Isiah is not in charge - decides to rip off the Knicks - and LB pushes for the extra pick and swap. ecause LB has never had a good draft pick or developed his own number one pick in his entire career - so what does he care.

Anyway - so here we are today. We ended up giving away atleast 4 draft picks - 2 for Marbury, swapped places for Chicago for two (high top ten picks for two bottom 10 picks). Got a few picks back via the Phoenix for K. Thomas and Nazir ohammed.

We have on out roster the malformed, imperfect core of :
1. Crawford - 27 - plays SF/SG - he has been playing 40 minutes a game since LB left. What have we seen. Better ball handling this year - those moves hemade against Chicago and Detroit never happened all last year. A guy who doesn't complain - plays the heaviest minutes of all Knicks and is trying to be consistent.
2. Eddie Curry- it boggles my mind that a guy who led the NBA in FG% twice and has put up 20pts/7 rebounds and 1 block playin gonly 30 minutes a game last year - can be considered not panning out?!?! he has panned out at at an average of 10 million a year - he is defintielyt better than Francis, Marbury, J Rose, Van Horne etc. He is younger , is a post presence.
3. Nate Robinson-all he has done is get better every year and work his ass off
4. David Lee - see above and also a double/double on most nights

We have some depth:
Jeffries/Balkman in for defnese at the Sf slot. Both are playig better- particularly Jeffries. He was a key factor in San Antonio, Chicago games.

Curry/Lee/Crawford- at either PF/C- for a combied average in the front ourt of 40 points and 20 rebounds

Crawford/Nate for atleast 20 points and 10 rebounds - it would be even more points if Q Rich was not such a waste.

Developing players in Chandler/Morris Randolph and Collins.
M. Rose and F. Jones as fill in veterans.

Not a 'great' team - but the best you can do - when you HAD to get Marbury to be a seat filler - and you HAD to hire LB.

All I am saying is - we all work and we know how things go. isiah was the face - but that doesn't mean he was the brains or even the heart of a lot of these moves. If we really just think about how things go where we work- its not so hard to see. The workplace intrigue is to common and too incessant for most of us- and I am sure - if we pause and transpose this on what is happenig - it may be a little clearer.

I am not pardonnig Isiah. But I am saying - think about the situation- it is a hard situation to be in-.

So basically what are you insisting on:
1. Team was bad after Laden. True. The cure was simple and common in any pro sport - suck for 2-3 years and rebuilt through the draft and smart management, trades and free agency. Never happened. You are saying because Dolan ordered it and Isiah was doing what he was told to do by owner.
My take:
If this is true for real - owner is Moron and Isiah is man without pride and professionalism. He knows that this was the recipe for disaster and went for it. No respect for such person.
My question:
Do you really believe that Isiah has no character and pride at all?
2. It is no question that Braun did damage to the Knicks.
My take: He was trying to get control over the team and rebuild it. Was he delusional? Yes.
My question:
Why Isiah allowed all this to happen? Is he a man without power and without principals? No respect for him for this too.
3. You think this team has good players (Craf, Eddy) and some complimentary peaces to become successful.
My take: Craf and Eddy are carrier losers and they are double losers with Knicks.
Outside Lee and may be Balk they have track load of garbage and have no future. Isiah performance in trades, free agent signing and, yes, draft is the worst in NBA and may be in all pro sport.
My question:
Why this nice group cannot win more that 30% games and getting blown away in 50% of games?

So basically what are you insisting on:
1. Team was bad after Laden. True. The cure was simple and common in any pro sport - suck for 2-3 years and rebuilt through the draft and smart management, trades and free agency. Never happened. You are saying because Dolan ordered it and Isiah was doing what he was told to do by owner.
My take:
If this is true for real - owner is Moron and Isiah is man without pride and professionalism. He knows that this was the recipe for disaster and went for it. No respect for such person.
My question:
Do you really believe that Isiah has no character and pride at all?
2. It is no question that Braun did damage to the Knicks.
My take: He was trying to get control over the team and rebuild it. Was he delusional? Yes.
My question:
Why Isiah allowed all this to happen? Is he a man without power and without principals? No respect for him for this too.
3. You think this team has good players (Craf, Eddy) and some complimentary peaces to become successful.
My take: Craf and Eddy are carrier losers and they are double losers with Knicks.
Outside Lee and may be Balk they have track load of garbage and have no future. Isiah performance in trades, free agent signing and, yes, draft is the worst in NBA and may be in all pro sport.
My question:
Why this nice group cannot win more that 30% games and getting blown away in 50% of games?

Posted by iyamwutiam:

LOL of course it does :)

Posted by iyamwutiam:

So basically what are you insisting on:
1. Team was bad after Laden. True. The cure was simple and common in any pro sport - suck for 2-3 years and rebuilt through the draft and smart management, trades and free agency. Never happened. You are saying because Dolan ordered it and Isiah was doing what he was told to do by owner.
My take:
If this is true for real - owner is Moron and Isiah is man without pride and professionalism. He knows that this was the recipe for disaster and went for it. No respect for such person.
My question:
Do you really believe that Isiah has no character and pride at all?
2. It is no question that Braun did damage to the Knicks.
My take: He was trying to get control over the team and rebuild it. Was he delusional? Yes.
My question:
Why Isiah allowed all this to happen? Is he a man without power and without principals? No respect for him for this too.
3. You think this team has good players (Craf, Eddy) and some complimentary peaces to become successful.
My take: Craf and Eddy are carrier losers and they are double losers with Knicks.
Outside Lee and may be Balk they have track load of garbage and have no future. Isiah performance in trades, free agent signing and, yes, draft is the worst in NBA and may be in all pro sport.
My question:
Why this nice group cannot win more that 30% games and getting blown away in 50% of games?

I am not insisting anything- I am only asking people to take a more pragmatic perspective of a situation - knowing what we have all experienced in any job environment.

The team was worse than bad- I have mentioned and asked anyone to find me a roster where over 80 percent of the players on a roster of 15 are NOT playing thein the league at ALL - in just two years time. Let me refresh the memory of some- :
Shandon Anderson SF 6-6 210 Georgia - Gone (1)
51 Michael Doleac C 6-11 262 Utah -Backup (1) 31 years old
4 Howard Eisley PG 6-2 180 Boston College - Gone (2)
32 Othella Harrington PF 6-9 235 Georgetown - Back up (2)-33years old
20 Allan Houston SG 6-6 200 Tennessee -Gone(3)
6 Maciej Lampe F 6-11 240 Poland -Gone(4) First round pick!!
34 Antonio McDyess PF 6-9 245 Alabama -Starter/backup (3) -33years old
55 Dikembe Mutombo C 7-2 265 Georgetown -back up or mascot (4) 42 years old!!
50 Mike Sweetney PF 6-8 260 Georgetown back up (5) (9th pick inthe first round) -26 years old
40 Kurt Thomas FC 6-9 235 Texas Christian -backup/starter (6)- 36 years old
2 Keith Van Horn F 6-10 255 Utah -33 years old (had a 60 M dollar contract) gone (5)
29 Slavko Vranes C 0-0 0 Serbia-Montenegro gone(6)25 y/0
21 Charlie Ward PG 6-2 185 Florida State gone (7)38 y/0
35 Clarence Weatherspoon F 6-7 270 Southern Miss back up (6) 38 y/o
30 Frank Williams gone(8) 27 y/o

So you have more than half the team out of the league, and only two people as starters with in 2-3 years after Isiah coming in - the rest (4-Weatherspoon, Sweeteny, Doleac and Harrington)don't even see a combined 20 minutes a game. Houston at a 100M, McDyess at 67 M, Van Horne at 60M, Anderson and Wesley @ 70M- I can go on and on - but I hope I have finally made my point. As I said over 300 million dollars in salary committed to this group!!

2. As for Larry Brown- was he delusional and why did Isiah allow this to happen. Bro- you ever been on a job in management and they get this hot shot recruit - who is the highest paidd guy in the company and though he technically works under you - he really doesn't. You may be his boss in name - but he really answers to the owner. I can't BELIEVE this is so HARD for people to believe. I mean you just made this guy the highest paid coach in the HISTORY of the NBA - if your not an idiot - you let this guy get enough rope to hang himself- go along with what he wants - because already from day 1 -as soon as the ink dried onthe paper- he is more improtant to you - even if you are the GM. We see this happen often enough- that I can't seriously spend too much time on it.

3. What you think -doesn't matter. If all the people on this board voted and said Curry was the worst center they have ever seen in their life - it doesn't matter. Bottom line he draws double/triple teams from PROFESSIONAL basketball teams. Botoomline - career wise at 25he averages close to 20 points/7 rebounds and a FG% of 61 percent last year. He has led two different teams in FG%. He will score 3000 points in 3 seasons as a Knick. As I said look it up- there are very few centers that have done what he has done. He will score more than 6000 points from 2002-2007- since he was straight out of highschool- so from 20 years old to 25. Other than legitmate superstars like Stoudemire, Howard, ect -no one comes close. In addition - a lot of these high scoring centers - are really PFs- garnet, Stoudemire, Howard etc. Very few legitimate centers that have scored that. Check Pryzbilla, Dampier, Etan Thomas, etc. Other than Yao Ming and Brad Miller - hardly anyone. So please get off Curry's case- its not like he is Frederic Weiss, MArcel Lampje, Jake Tsakalidas, Darko Milic etc. The guy is legit- regardless of what this board thinks.

Jamal Crawford - I am with you. i would have much preferred a host of other people like Caron Butler, Morris Peterson, most of all gerald Wallace. No arguments from me there.

This 'nice' group as you mentioned - has had 4 coaches in 4 years, seen a huge turnover in their roster every year- including last year. This is why IT - is basically saying its time to stop the musical chairs for this year. No doubt - it cost the knicks 15-20 games trying to get Randolph, Curry to mesh in the front court. Trying to get Marbury to mesh with the team and not feel slighted at Nates popularity. I never said - it was an outstanding job in difficult circumstances - but I am saying - that given what we know and what can be verified- iSIAH DID NOT GET A FAIR SHAKE.

sO THE LAST PART about his pride. Look - after trying to take on the NBA (with the CBA-which quickly became the Dleague) and his past with the pacers and raptors- it was easy to see he was on the **** list. Why do you think he was the only one to take the job. Hey- thats his choice- and I think he has managed it with grace. He took the fall for Brown, Marbury, etc. He hasn't lost his cool at the daily attacks from day one and if Dolan has any heart - he will -let isiah go about his business for two more years.

As for the Knicks roster- we will have a much better handle on our salary cap then people think. We have two contract worth 27 M expiring after this year. We wll have James expiring after that. The main issues are Q and Crawford - these are bad mistakes - but atleast Crawford is useful and will bust his ass for 40 minutes. QRich is an out an out waste of money.

Posted by martin:

Posted by Nalod:

Posted by iyamwutiam:

I have never said Isiah was perfect- however what I have asked people to do is to think in real word terms:
1. As has been generally agreed upon - the Knicks rostyer he inherited (historically/factually) is the worst roster in any professional sports in the last 35 years. Again - I am not disparaging the players or anything like that. I am saying -find ONE team (onyl one) where 80 percent or more of any team in professional sports is not in the league. Also - the same people Colangelo, Mullin, West who are 'calling' now - did not pick up the phone when Dolan called in 2003- when he was set to fire Layden- again - in terms of logic (if sounds like hoofbeats -think horses not zebras)- this is because no one wanted to walk into such a bad situation.

2. Generally candidates that are the 'first' choice for xtreme make-overs in such kinds of jobs -get paid big money and have extended contracts (atleast 5 years) as can be seen from Scott Layden's previous contract (7 yrs/30 million guaranteed) or Pat Riley (guanranteed with part ownership of team). Has as already been noted and agreed to- Isiah was a 'last ditch' candidate. He was signed for nominal mney and a nominla contract- (I doubt any owner was not aware of the shadows of the CBA/Indiana and Toronto that followed Isiah). Lets remember he was signed in Dec of 2003- so we can for fairness sake say he didn't really start till say January 15th of 2004 . This is important - as people should realize that it is not his 4th year- not 5th year.

3. So given that Dolan could bring no 'extablished' GM to the front office - he chose to get Isiah and put him on a tight leash. This would explain - the emergence of two hall of fame coaches whowere basically jobless-and have remained jobless (exceptfor the indulgence of the Knicks)- namely- Wilkens and Brown. In this context- 'last choice' for a job no one wanted, shady past of trouble - any one who has ever held a job - would HAVE to concede that you don't get the same purview as say Parcells does when he signs on a team. Further it can be agreed upon - again - from the roster - that since Houston was never going to play again - the roster contained too many guys that had no 'showtime' appeal.

4. So here we are with the richest franchise in the NBA -talking achance on a guy who has a bad rep- mainly because they couldn't find anyone else willing to take the job that was established. They hire Isiah as a last resort , have an aging -salary capped roster with over 300 million dollars in committed salaries -of which 100 million goes to a guy who will never play again - and has a rule named after him -"Allan Houston" rule. Houston despite the honor of having a rule named after -refused to opt out of his contract and rather chose to havetheKnicks pay him all the years left on a contract of which 80 percent he never played (my hereo!!).

5. As I satated earlier- no way - a guy like Isiah - who's claim to fame is those first round draft picks with Toronto and getting Jermaine O Neal, Artest, Brad Miller - goes out and GIVES UP_ two number one draft picks for a guy who is knwn as tainted goods for being selfish and a poor leader from Coast to Coast - or should I say from Minnesota to NJ. It is not implausible - that withthe new era- Dolan really felt he needed a box office guy that would appeal to NY fans - the only one available was Marbury.

Before people start rushing in and saying -oh thats alie and it was all Isiah. Review the context- we all knew the team was being blown up. Isiah's history of picking via the draft and trading for 'YOUNG" players - basically this flies in the face of the approach Isiah has always taken. So anyway - we give up TWO FIRST ROUND picks for Marbury- and Phoenix is nice and throws us back one -later in terms of robinson.

6. Wilkens- I am not going to get into -I would rather move onto Larry brown - who did way more damage to the Knicks. First - let me remind everyone - Isiah Thomas did coach the Pacers- for three years and was 'selected' to be the coach at the all -star game - an honor reserved for good coaches. Therefore - it would besilly to think -that Isiah doesn't think he can coach or wouldn't want to coach. However- we can all agree - that as the 'new kid on the block' - he had to 'pay his dues' and keep his mouth shut- 'till he can win the trust of the organization". All this is the modern day equivalent of going into a f**ked up organization, not calling anyone out and unfortunately only being able to pick a battle with a documented personnel person who didn't even know what players were onthe team.

Anyway - back to Larry Brown- he became the HIGHEST paid coach in the history of te NBA at that point by signing with the Knicks. Coming off a championship from the Pistons and benig replaced - because he refused to play younger players - in Philadelphia and Detroit and develop any talent.

Why would Isiah actually do this-when he had stated from day one - his plan -if it was EVER allowed to be implemented was to build the team up thru youth as he had done in Toronto and Indiana. So- again - he takes the fall for Larry Brown hiring - 'because he is the GM'. I am sure many of us have taken similar falls for our boss- if in a management position. That is 'your' role in the heirarchy of business or governement or any managerial position.

OK- so onto LB. He comes in and as any OLD , established coach - tries to do two things. Show he is the boss and get some of his old players to implement 'hi' system. Parcells des this EVRYWHERE- where hasn't he taklen Bledsoe/Testaverde/Keyshawn and Jumbo Elliot?!? So as usual you have two plans going on:
1. Plan A- keep the seats filled - via Marbury and LArry Brown- keep the show going - as they have always done with Riley/Van Gundy/Layden etc. Keep the team in cap hell but for god sakes - keep the fans coming.
2. Plan B- whatever Isiah can pull of his with his 'little' draft picks and if he actually gets lucky and pulls out a superstar in the laste first or second round -well even better- after - al thats the only reason he is here.

Larry Brown trades away the most versatile small forward we have - Trevor Arriza - to get an injured, upset Steve Francis - so he can 'show' Marbury - that hey - I can get a 20 million dollar a year player like you - overnite and replace your ass. He then promptly gets two of his older players who have un-necessarily humongous salaries and are helping no one - Antonio Davis and Jalen Rose- mainly Rose. Did anyone ever stop ad consider that on paper- Crawford/MArbury are basically younger healthier versions of Rose/Francis- why would you get a pair of the same exact players. Very simple- its he new guy -who comes inwith the all the golry- trying to show the guy (who got the job because no one wanted it) -'that anything you can do I can do better and faster". Same ole **** -just a different work environment.

So what happens- Larry Brown goes 24-58 on his first season. No reason to fire the man - we al knew it would take a few years for his system to take effect- look at Philadelphia it took them around 5 years. So he was NOT fired for ONE season- he was fired for adding on close to 80 million dollars of salary which Isiah had to clean up. 30 millon went t Rose for a buy out of a player -whom we have a clone of in Crawford, and another 40 million for another clone of Marbury who was even more dissatisifed as to how he is not getting his 'props'. In addition- we had te lumbering defensive specialist (cause I had one good year in the playoffs) Jerome James. This is evident because all 3 players have not seen the light of day since LB left. So -gain - the simplest explanation s that they were ALL LBs doing and -as usual with the glory boys- they don't car what stuff costs the 'team' r the orgainzation - as they are golden and have golden parachutes that allow them to make 28 million dollars -for only one year of coaching !!!


The amount of damage done to the Knicks in this one year is what got Larry Brown not only fired - but fired with acrimony. So -once again - in comes isiah to cleanup the mess. What can you do? Not much - buy out Jalen Rose -for 30 million as no one will take him. Tel Paul Allen - you will take his problem (Randolph @ 60 million) for your problem (Francis @40 million) -and throw in a promising player who yet to fulfill his potential the number 8 pick in thedraft- and of course Portland throws some fill in garbage with Dickau/Jones and a second round pick.

So you have effectively set your tema back an additional two years. One year with LB, one year buying out Jalen Rose and looking for someone anyone to take Steve Francis off your hands and you gave up two good draft picks mainly Frye and Arriza. In effect - you have taken two steps back -spent 30 M in a buy out and gave up two prospects for your future - because of one egotistical, overspending coach.

Allow me - to digress for one second here- as i can point out to you - that it cost us even more than just that. Curry had just led the Bulls in scoring an FG% the year before Lb got in. They were set to keep Curry and move Chandler. What happened- the heart issue and then - thegall to ask the player to take a genetic test. Curry refused and all of a sudden - Chicago was in a bind. Everyone knows this. So we could have had Curry for even less- but guess what - Antonio Davis-LB wanted him badly - till he actually got on the court and also told his old coach - he just wants to go home to Toronto. Paxson -is sitting there- knows Isiah is not in charge - decides to rip off the Knicks - and LB pushes for the extra pick and swap. ecause LB has never had a good draft pick or developed his own number one pick in his entire career - so what does he care.

Anyway - so here we are today. We ended up giving away atleast 4 draft picks - 2 for Marbury, swapped places for Chicago for two (high top ten picks for two bottom 10 picks). Got a few picks back via the Phoenix for K. Thomas and Nazir ohammed.

We have on out roster the malformed, imperfect core of :
1. Crawford - 27 - plays SF/SG - he has been playing 40 minutes a game since LB left. What have we seen. Better ball handling this year - those moves hemade against Chicago and Detroit never happened all last year. A guy who doesn't complain - plays the heaviest minutes of all Knicks and is trying to be consistent.
2. Eddie Curry- it boggles my mind that a guy who led the NBA in FG% twice and has put up 20pts/7 rebounds and 1 block playin gonly 30 minutes a game last year - can be considered not panning out?!?! he has panned out at at an average of 10 million a year - he is defintielyt better than Francis, Marbury, J Rose, Van Horne etc. He is younger , is a post presence.
3. Nate Robinson-all he has done is get better every year and work his ass off
4. David Lee - see above and also a double/double on most nights

We have some depth:
Jeffries/Balkman in for defnese at the Sf slot. Both are playig better- particularly Jeffries. He was a key factor in San Antonio, Chicago games.

Curry/Lee/Crawford- at either PF/C- for a combied average in the front ourt of 40 points and 20 rebounds

Crawford/Nate for atleast 20 points and 10 rebounds - it would be even more points if Q Rich was not such a waste.

Developing players in Chandler/Morris Randolph and Collins.
M. Rose and F. Jones as fill in veterans.

Not a 'great' team - but the best you can do - when you HAD to get Marbury to be a seat filler - and you HAD to hire LB.

All I am saying is - we all work and we know how things go. isiah was the face - but that doesn't mean he was the brains or even the heart of a lot of these moves. If we really just think about how things go where we work- its not so hard to see. The workplace intrigue is to common and too incessant for most of us- and I am sure - if we pause and transpose this on what is happenig - it may be a little clearer.

I am not pardonnig Isiah. But I am saying - think about the situation- it is a hard situation to be in-.

Whoa,

Donnie walsh was the GM of the pacers. Not Isiah.

Isiah cleaned up Larrys mess of adding 80 mil of salary?

You lost me right there.

I got lost at hello. Dude is gonna burn out with posts like this. Yo, to reach 10,000 and get a free lap dance from Knicks City Dancer of choice, you had better chop these posts up. And use small words so Bonnie can understand please.

There needs to be a word count next to our post count! 5 posts by this guy are like 300 by anyone else!

Posted by iyamwutiam:

Nalod:
I am talking about j. Rose (30 million dollar buy out) + Steve francis (40 million still left which Paul Allen bought out- if Allen didn't agree to take Francis - now way we would take Randolph). In short- we took on Randolph because we were dumping Francis and his 40 million owed- to seeten the deal -we had to throw in Frye.