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Bippity10
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12/14/2007  12:49 PM
Posted by VDesai:
Posted by Bippity10:

But part of drafting is finding the right talent for your team. He has found guys that can't get off the bench because their are guys in front of them. If you are going to do that why not just stockpile at a position of need. I would think grabbing 12 PG's with the hope that one of them takes off(I can't fault this strategy even if they all fail) is a better late round draft strategy than drafting another 1 dimensional 2 guard that can't get off the bench. But that's just my opinion.


They wouldn't necessarily have been the wrong talent for his team if knew what the f he was doing as a coach and roster manager in the first place. When you draft in the 20's you cannot draft for need cause you will be getting marginal players. Drafting best available talents is a good strategy b/c you have a better chance of getting a player with more value of the pick. What you do with that player afterwards is the mark of how good you are as a GM.

That is my point. I guess it comes off as me questioning his drafting skills. I'm not. I'm questioning what happens after. Here is what we know. David Lee is a good player for his draft slot. Nate is about what you can expect at his slot in the draft. Balk, Collins and Chandler can barely get off the bench. Fry so far is a bust. So I'm not going to come on and say he is a poor drafter. But outside of David Lee, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be impressed with.
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Bippity10
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12/14/2007  12:51 PM
Posted by VDesai:

BTW, as a perfect example, look at the Bulls drafts in the early 90's. They kept drafting PF's and C's in the late 20's cause they thought they needed upgrades there and what they ended up with was crap players like Stacey King, Corie Blount, Scott Williams, Jason Caffey etc.

The Spurs, probably one of the best late drafting teams in the NBA, focus on best available talents regardless of position/need and regardless of background and usually find gems in terms of value relative to their draft position.

The Spurs are a team that can afford to do this because they are already winning. They have the luxury of finding the best possible player. WE do not. We haven't won in years. We need to focus all our attention at getting high draft picks. Trading up in the draft is part of the draft. Isiah has shown us he has the ability to find an okay player that isn't a bust. Other than that what has he really accomplished in this time here.

It reminds me of Layden. A lot of his draft genius was tied to Eisley and Anderson. Good picks for their slots. But so what. Isiah's hightest pick with us was a failure.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 14-12-2007 12:52 PM]
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VDesai
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12/14/2007  12:57 PM
High draft picks is different than drafting in the 20's Again acquiring high draft picks is a diffent skill than picking a player. People were starting to criticize him picking players. You can criticize everything else about him as a GM, Coach, a Man, but picking players at the spots he has he's above average at. That is all.
Bippity10
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12/14/2007  1:17 PM
Posted by VDesai:

High draft picks is different than drafting in the 20's Again acquiring high draft picks is a diffent skill than picking a player. People were starting to criticize him picking players. You can criticize everything else about him as a GM, Coach, a Man, but picking players at the spots he has he's above average at. That is all.

I don't think anyone is criticizing. You are misinterpreting my words. I'm not criticizing, just not sure what I should be impressed with. He's a very good talent evaluator who is yet to have anything more than an okay draft.

[Edited by - bippity10 on 14-12-2007 1:18 PM]
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VDesai
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12/14/2007  1:34 PM
Considering where we have picked in each round since he's been drafting, here, I have been pleasantly surprised at the high quality of our drafts. Remember when Grunfeld had 3 picks? He drafted 3 guys who were barely NBA players.

Frye, Lee and Nate did more in their rookie years than those guys did in their careers.
Allanfan20
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12/14/2007  1:42 PM
Posted by VDesai:

High draft picks is different than drafting in the 20's Again acquiring high draft picks is a diffent skill than picking a player. People were starting to criticize him picking players. You can criticize everything else about him as a GM, Coach, a Man, but picking players at the spots he has he's above average at. That is all.

He's found some players, but he has every right to be criticized for picking Frye over others, and Balkman over Williams is up to the jury, but it's leaning towards he shoulda picked Williams, AND I would have picked Almond over Chandler. Again, he's picked nice prospects, but none of them, besides Lee and a little of Nate, have done little for the team.
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VDesai
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12/14/2007  1:51 PM
Marcus Williams in his rookie year showed to be a shoot first player who shot poorly and had a less than 2 to 1 assist to turnover ratio. And guess what, he would've gotten Mardy's minutes here.

But the roster was also void of an energy player who could guard the wing and Balkman gave us that.

People are still going nutty over their opinion that Marcus was a value and Balkman could've been had later.

What I see is that Marcus was passed over by a lot of teams that needed PG's and was drafted behind PG's he was supposedly better than. And I saw Balkman still show that he was a better overall talent than his draft position in his rookie year. And no one knows where Balkman would've been taken- if you've got a high grade on him (must've been higher than his grade on Marcus right?) then you take the player rather than risk losing him.

I don't see any regrets on that one.

With Frye- I was against that from the start (see my long post- The Case Aganst Frye) but Frye did look really good for a while his rookie year, didn't he? An upside he had was sort of limited by bringing in Curry. When Curry became the main option Frye was tossed to the dust.

I actually think Chandler will prove to better than Almond who's sort of a bad athlete.

Again he's picking the 20's or later for most of his picks. He's doing an above average job there.
BlueSeats
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12/14/2007  2:22 PM
He's a good drafter V, but we've still got little more than borderline starters to show for it in spite of 3 consecutive lottery seasons. He's not gonna get heaps of praise for that.

But yes, he gets guys who stay in the league with late round picks.
nyk4ever
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12/14/2007  2:41 PM
I think Bip put it best actually....
But outside of David Lee, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be impressed with.

The group as a whole leaves alot to be desired, but I think the Lee pick is the glaring pick where you can say.. that was a great draft pick, late in the 1st round.

Honestly, what have Renaldo, Chandler and Mardy shown us? Renaldo is an energy player, but is that just because he's playing on a team with only maybe 2 or 3 guys going all out so he looks better? I tend to think he is what he's shown us, but do we really know? I mean he's just doing what he's supposed to, which is give it his all.

Mardy has show nothing.

Chandler cant even get off the bench.

Let's not even talk about Frye..

It's weird.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 12-14-2007 2:42 PM]
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VDesai
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12/14/2007  2:43 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

He's a good drafter V, but we've still got little more than borderline starters to show for it in spite of 3 consecutive lottery seasons. He's not gonna get heaps of praise for that.

But yes, he gets guys who stay in the league with late round picks.

This what I'm not understanding. When did borderline starters become commonly drafted in the 20's and 2nd round? They aren't.

And I think Lee is a starter on nearly every team in the league. I've gone down all the rosters and firmly believe this. Our team is just plain silly.
VDesai
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12/14/2007  2:48 PM
Honestly, what have Renaldo, Chandler and Mardy shown us? Renaldo is an energy player, but is that just because he's playing on a team with only maybe 2 or 3 guys going all out so he looks better? I tend to think he is what he's shown us, but do we really know? I mean he's just doing what he's supposed to, which is give it his all.

I thought he showed a lot. He averaged 11.1 rebounds, 2.1 steals, and 1.7 blocks per 40 as a rookie. Most teams would like to get that in the lineup.
MS
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12/14/2007  2:54 PM
The Spurs drafted that kid splitter who would have been a smart pick for the knicks because they could have just kept him in Europe instead of buried like Chandler is right now.....
BlueSeats
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12/14/2007  3:02 PM
Posted by VDesai:
Posted by BlueSeats:

He's a good drafter V, but we've still got little more than borderline starters to show for it in spite of 3 consecutive lottery seasons. He's not gonna get heaps of praise for that.

But yes, he gets guys who stay in the league with late round picks.

This what I'm not understanding. When did borderline starters become commonly drafted in the 20's and 2nd round? They aren't.

And I think Lee is a starter on nearly every team in the league. I've gone down all the rosters and firmly believe this. Our team is just plain silly.


That's why I give him a "good" rating.

Ariza, Nate, Lee, Balk, Frye, Collins, Chandler.

How do you rate him?
VDesai
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12/14/2007  3:11 PM
I'd rate him good, but I don't see the use in critiquing him for not drafting 3-4 starters from pick no.20 on, which I think is from whence this argument stemmed.
TrueBlue
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12/14/2007  3:17 PM
Posted by VDesai:

I'd rate him good, but I don't see the use in critiquing him for not drafting 3-4 starters from pick no.20 on, which I think is from whence this argument stemmed.

Other GM's have done it with worse drafting positions and not only that have picked All-Stars at those positions. It's one thing to apologize from his draft position but if you're giving away Lottery Picks for starters who don't deserve to start and 2nd round picks for players you rather waive then Dammit you better hit the Jackpot with late first round draft picks.

LMFAO @ the Bio [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephon_Marbury[/url]
VDesai
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12/14/2007  3:27 PM
Posted by TrueBlue:
Posted by VDesai:

I'd rate him good, but I don't see the use in critiquing him for not drafting 3-4 starters from pick no.20 on, which I think is from whence this argument stemmed.

Other GM's have done it with worse drafting positions and not only that have picked All-Stars at those positions. It's one thing to apologize from his draft position but if you're giving away Lottery Picks for starters who don't deserve to start and 2nd round picks for players you rather waive then Dammit you better hit the Jackpot with late first round draft picks.

For 3 pages of this thread, I have never argued that giving away lottery picks is good strategy. Trading lottery picks doesn't magically give you the ability to extract starters in the 20's so I don't understand that logic. For what its worth, it seems to me that Lee and Balkman should be starting on this team anyway.

What I am saying that he has been signifcantly better at find value relative to his drafting position. And unless you find me more GM's than I can count on one hand with compelling arguments in the last 3-4 seasons that did a better job at getting value, than I don't see how that is wrong. And I've done the research and I don't think that you can. That is how I arrived at this position.

But you know what, I think should be fired anyway for a multitude of other reasons that are far more signficant. And from the very beginning I hated, absolutely hated his hire in the first place. I thought he was smiling idiot that could barely string together a coherent thought as TV analyst, an abomination as a GM and league owner, and a complete nitwit as the coach of what I percieved to be a very talented team. And that's bottom line of my opinion on Isiah Thomas.

The only reason I even bothered with this argument is that I didn't see the reasoning behind needlessly piling on with a sentiment that I didn't believe made sense.
BlueSeats
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12/14/2007  3:36 PM
Posted by VDesai:

I'd rate him good, but I don't see the use in critiquing him for not drafting 3-4 starters from pick no.20 on, which I think is from whence this argument stemmed.

Then you and I are in agreement.

But there are people who think Isiah is a Great drafter, or a Genius. I think you need better than borderline starters for that.

Back to "good"... lets remember back in the day, Layden was considered a good drafter too for getting guys like Shandon and Eisley late in the draft (lefts forget about Malone and Stockton since there was too much overlap with his father to know who was more responsible). They stayed in the league a long time too, but in retrospect, who cares? They were good picks relative to their draft slots, but not very good players -- and that may end up the case with the brunt of Isiah's kids too.
technomaster
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12/14/2007  4:12 PM
Posted by Allanfan20:

Good post bballjones. Clearly, Ray and Reggie have hurt their careers by doing this and could probably take a page out of the Renaldo book. Maybe also hang around Eddie and Jerome.

Last time I checked, neither Ray Allen nor Reggie Miller have championships to their records. :)
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djsunyc
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12/14/2007  4:13 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by VDesai:

I'd rate him good, but I don't see the use in critiquing him for not drafting 3-4 starters from pick no.20 on, which I think is from whence this argument stemmed.

Then you and I are in agreement.

But there are people who think Isiah is a Great drafter, or a Genius. I think you need better than borderline starters for that.

Back to "good"... lets remember back in the day, Layden was considered a good drafter too for getting guys like Shandon and Eisley late in the draft (lefts forget about Malone and Stockton since there was too much overlap with his father to know who was more responsible). They stayed in the league a long time too, but in retrospect, who cares? They were good picks relative to their draft slots, but not very good players -- and that may end up the case with the brunt of Isiah's kids too.

layden's last pick for utah was ak47 late in the first round.
technomaster
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12/14/2007  4:18 PM
Hmm... The Spurs are a little different - they're best team in the league at scouting international talent. Of course, it's much easier to look great when you're building around a #1 overall pick. They're getting big contributions from Oberto, Ginobili, and Parker. Their former draft pick, Udrih, is doing a great job in Sacramento now. Scola's at least a very good rotation player in Houston now. Tiago Splitter's still a year away, but still.

Perhaps other teams are looking at the same players, but San Antonio's actually been the team that picks them.

Posted by VDesai:

BTW, as a perfect example, look at the Bulls drafts in the early 90's. They kept drafting PF's and C's in the late 20's cause they thought they needed upgrades there and what they ended up with was crap players like Stacey King, Corie Blount, Scott Williams, Jason Caffey etc.

The Spurs, probably one of the best late drafting teams in the NBA, focus on best available talents regardless of position/need and regardless of background and usually find gems in terms of value relative to their draft position.

“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
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