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FIRING ISIAH WILL NOT MAKE THE SUN SHINE ON THE KNICKS!
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Panos
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11/21/2007  3:51 PM
Bip, you are a hater.
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djsunyc
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11/21/2007  3:52 PM
Posted by PresIke:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by PresIke:

Not sure I am misreading your post Panos, but the assumption that someone "CAPABLE" comes in is wrong. Any fool can figure out that firing Isiah may be the first step towards doing that, and figure out that someone "capable" can come in...

So writing an article about that is something we're suppossed to go "oooooh" and "ahhh" about?

What some of the "haters" here may not realize is that many of the so-called "lovers" supported certain guys like Isiah, etc. because of the reality of having Dolan, and that at least it was a trend that made the team more entertaining than Layden's.

The real move is get Dolan out of here, but the problem is that is likely not going to happen, so we have to HOPE he does something good.

We all like the idea of Colangelo, Walsh, and a few others coming in, but how do we know that's who will come? Maybe Dolan finally listens to the critics, but how do we know he will. What's so special about asking for someone capable after Isiah? Any of us could have said the same thing, and the premise reeks of condescension towards Knick fans.

"and that at least it was a trend that made the team more entertaining than Layden's."

Holy mackeral

i disagree with ike 100%. this team, to me, is not more entertaining. this team is full of guys that don't know how to play basketball. they're just out there looking to go 1 on 1. those layden team's were far inferior talent wise yet still managed to win more games than this squad. dice goes out for the season and the team fights for 37 wins. that team was FAR more entertaining than any team isiah has put on the floor, imho.

DJ, not NOW. Of course they are AWFUL and a DISGRACE now, but up until the disaster this season, there was some entertaining ball in there, and some glimmers of hope here and there.

At least we had young players to have SOME hope for. Maybe some of you had no faith in them but for many fans at least that offered a glimmer. DJ within two years of Layden taking over we went from 50 game winner to 30 game winner. Did Isiah take over a winning team? No, so the comparisons are moot in regard to Layden's record early on. He added the worst contracts in the history of b-ball vs. talent that began this travesty, and brought in no young talent at all. I can't believe some of you even think that we had more hope under Layden than Isiah. Revisionist history, if you ask me.

Entertaining ball...

Guys layden brought in that gotten significant playing time:

Shandon
Spoon
Van Horn
Ward
Doleac
Mutombo
Eisley


vs.

Isiah's:

Lee
Crawford
Curry
Marbury
Balkman
Q
Jeffries
Collins
M. Rose
Taylor
T. Thomas
Frye


Isiah brought in some bad players, no doubt, but compare the better players he has brought in to the team that Layden had and if either team was more entertaining and it's not even close, IMHO. Some of you all are never going to agree, and now the venom towards Isiah is so high (with good reason) that this argument may be impossible to conduct.

i did not find any ball they played last year entertaining. all that's been brought to this team is flash and dunks. seriously, when you look at how isiah's teams have played...we haven't shown teamwork for more than a 1 week stretch at any point in the past 3 years. now is just the culmination. the most entertaining point i felt this team showed was the 6 game win streak under lb. but that was more hope b/c of lb. then they got rid of the guy and i saw no real progress here since then.

i really liked the 03/04 37 win layden team alot more than the past 3 seasons of isiah. i'm not saying you're wrong or anything, i'm just saying that's how i felt. and i definitely agree that i'm in the heavy minority.
PresIke
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11/21/2007  3:55 PM
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by PresIke:
Posted by Bippity10:

Number 2, stop calling this play "more entertaining"

Of course THIS current play is NOT entertaining. This is worse than I can remember. However, over the history of Isiah's tenure the players we have had vs. those that Layden's are. That doesn't mean the team was winning, but many fans -- maybe not you -- had those feelings over the course of Isiah's tenure, whether it be more athletic play or seeing young players -- which Layden never attempted to bring in -- show us things to get excited about for the future of the team. Even Frye, who is gone, created some excitement in his first season. Layden never even had someone like Channing Frye. That says a lot to me about who has had more entertaining players.

I agree some fans got excited over false promises. Some did not. Some were mortified by the constant parade of misfits that Isiah brings in. I will be the first to admit that I am settling and have resigned myself to the type of players that Isiah targets. But not at one point have I been more entertained by this. Maybe it's becuase i grew up on the rarely dunking, mostly defensive and hustling Knicks of the 1990's, and have not found high flying losing teams to be very fun to watch. It's the "old school" in me.

On their own they were younger and more exciting. Together yeesh
Tim Thomas
Jalen Rose
Jerome James
Jared Jeffries
Stephon Marbury
Jamal Crawford
Zach Randolph
Mo Taylor
Steve Francis
Qyntel Woods
Jackie Butler

This is what passes for entertainment these days?

Bip, I grew up on the 90's Knicks too, but the last days of that squad under Van Gundy left a sour taste in my mouth about being overly obsessed with that style while the NBA was changing to a more athletic scorer friendly league. Stern started his attempt to undermine that era of Miami-NY 78-75 games, and the defensive oriented schemes Riley and Van Gundy were using.

That's why I had hope with Isiah, was that he saw that the team needed more athleticism to compete. Did he do it the best way? He neglected defense far too much and in the end that killed us, IMHO. Regardless, his way of getting players many suspect was the way he had to under Dolan's mantra for "win now." Not saying this "excuses" Isiah, but one wonders if he could do it another way back then would he have or was it Dolan's mantra guiding his decisions?

That's why I always blame Dolan more, because the trend has been the same since he took over the team. Isiah and Layden are just two differing versions of the same approach. This is what concerns me for the future most, btw.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
PresIke
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11/21/2007  4:01 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by PresIke:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Bippity10:
Posted by PresIke:

Not sure I am misreading your post Panos, but the assumption that someone "CAPABLE" comes in is wrong. Any fool can figure out that firing Isiah may be the first step towards doing that, and figure out that someone "capable" can come in...

So writing an article about that is something we're suppossed to go "oooooh" and "ahhh" about?

What some of the "haters" here may not realize is that many of the so-called "lovers" supported certain guys like Isiah, etc. because of the reality of having Dolan, and that at least it was a trend that made the team more entertaining than Layden's.

The real move is get Dolan out of here, but the problem is that is likely not going to happen, so we have to HOPE he does something good.

We all like the idea of Colangelo, Walsh, and a few others coming in, but how do we know that's who will come? Maybe Dolan finally listens to the critics, but how do we know he will. What's so special about asking for someone capable after Isiah? Any of us could have said the same thing, and the premise reeks of condescension towards Knick fans.

"and that at least it was a trend that made the team more entertaining than Layden's."

Holy mackeral

i disagree with ike 100%. this team, to me, is not more entertaining. this team is full of guys that don't know how to play basketball. they're just out there looking to go 1 on 1. those layden team's were far inferior talent wise yet still managed to win more games than this squad. dice goes out for the season and the team fights for 37 wins. that team was FAR more entertaining than any team isiah has put on the floor, imho.

DJ, not NOW. Of course they are AWFUL and a DISGRACE now, but up until the disaster this season, there was some entertaining ball in there, and some glimmers of hope here and there.

At least we had young players to have SOME hope for. Maybe some of you had no faith in them but for many fans at least that offered a glimmer. DJ within two years of Layden taking over we went from 50 game winner to 30 game winner. Did Isiah take over a winning team? No, so the comparisons are moot in regard to Layden's record early on. He added the worst contracts in the history of b-ball vs. talent that began this travesty, and brought in no young talent at all. I can't believe some of you even think that we had more hope under Layden than Isiah. Revisionist history, if you ask me.

Entertaining ball...

Guys layden brought in that gotten significant playing time:

Shandon
Spoon
Van Horn
Ward
Doleac
Mutombo
Eisley


vs.

Isiah's:

Lee
Crawford
Curry
Marbury
Balkman
Q
Jeffries
Collins
M. Rose
Taylor
T. Thomas
Frye


Isiah brought in some bad players, no doubt, but compare the better players he has brought in to the team that Layden had and if either team was more entertaining and it's not even close, IMHO. Some of you all are never going to agree, and now the venom towards Isiah is so high (with good reason) that this argument may be impossible to conduct.

i did not find any ball they played last year entertaining. all that's been brought to this team is flash and dunks. seriously, when you look at how isiah's teams have played...we haven't shown teamwork for more than a 1 week stretch at any point in the past 3 years. now is just the culmination. the most entertaining point i felt this team showed was the 6 game win streak under lb. but that was more hope b/c of lb. then they got rid of the guy and i saw no real progress here since then.

i really liked the 03/04 37 win layden team alot more than the past 3 seasons of isiah. i'm not saying you're wrong or anything, i'm just saying that's how i felt. and i definitely agree that i'm in the heavy minority.

That's cool. I HATED Layden's team more than this one. I think we at least have some players worth considering about keeping and could develop into something worthwhile or are tradable (i.e. Randolph), where as Layden's squad are all out of the NBA now, or fringe players. Doleac might be the best player for his salary that we got, and maybe Mutumbo. The Shandon-Eisley-Spoon moves were godawful. Jeffries-James-M.Rose isn't too far off, in fairness though.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
djsunyc
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11/21/2007  4:06 PM
that's true, but what value do alot of our players have?

what is marbury's true value now? isn't just his expiring deal next year?
what about crawford? how many people are lining up for his services at his contract and what exactly are we going to get in return?

curry? can we recoup even 1 lotto pick for him at this point?

we got zach for francis + frye.

our assets seem to be expiring contracts and probably david lee. but since he traded away another unprotected for marbury within the next 3 years, then that cancels out david's value. can mardy yield us another #30 pick? how about balkman? could we not have just bought a pick in the 20's?

i'm not that high on these guys and their tradeability factor. i think we need 4 new starters, maybe 5 if you don't want to keep zach...which, to me, means we're back to square 1. all those bench players can be found via MLE's and LLE's and are replaceable.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 11-21-2007 4:09 PM]
Bippity10
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11/21/2007  4:08 PM
It's the same reason why a lot of people find the Spurs to be boring. I personally find all the winning to be more exciting than anything else.
I just hope that people will like me
Bippity10
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11/21/2007  4:10 PM
Our assets are good to bring in another "troubled" character
I just hope that people will like me
djsunyc
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11/21/2007  4:13 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

Our assets are good to bring in another "troubled" character

there's a really good chance that we're gonna be stuck in this cycle...we really need to lose this year and get a high draft pick.
Bippity10
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11/21/2007  4:15 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Bippity10:

Our assets are good to bring in another "troubled" character

there's a really good chance that we're gonna be stuck in this cycle...we really need to lose this year and get a high draft pick.

shudders
I just hope that people will like me
Allanfan20
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11/21/2007  5:57 PM
Presike, you also have to consider McDyess, b/c a healthier McDyess is who Layden envisioned, along with Houston, whom Layden gave the extension too and of course, you gotto put Kurt Thomas in too, b/c Layden never traded him.

I think a team of:

Mutombo
Thomas
Van Horn
Houston
Ward

with Anderson, Eisley, Spoon and Doleac kicks Isiah's teams ass.
“I couldn’t dunk it so I tried to, you know, just touched it.”- OG Anunoby
oohah
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11/21/2007  6:06 PM
Presike, you also have to consider McDyess, b/c a healthier McDyess is who Layden envisioned, along with Houston, whom Layden gave the extension too and of course, you gotto put Kurt Thomas in too, b/c Layden never traded him.

If you have to consider McDyess for Layden, you have to consider Houston for Isiah. That changes a lot. If Houston was healthy, Jamal Crawford would not be playing nearly as big a role. Crawford was the emergency plan.

There are always 'could haves'.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Allanfan20
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11/21/2007  6:10 PM
Crawford was NOT the emergency plan. Isiah was expecting a 3 guard rotation, with 1 of them being a guard who can handle the ball and do a little of everything in Crawford b/c if you remember, Marbury got killed in those playoffs in the Nets because we had nobody else who could bring the ball up. Either way, I'm just going by what presike says. What I say is this. The team in the 02-03 season would kill our team NOW. That was Sprewell's last season here, and that team sucked, but they played hard all the time and at least played smart.
“I couldn’t dunk it so I tried to, you know, just touched it.”- OG Anunoby
Vmart
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11/21/2007  7:00 PM
I don't want Isiah fired. I'm not getting caught up in this fire Thomas thing that has become so popular here. I don't think the next GM is gonna change this team overnight. What the Knicks need to do is stay the course and head into the lottery with their heads held high. This team isn't as bad as everyone is making them out to be they are just lacking in the leadership dept. I want the Knicks in the lottery with the highest chance to get a franchise player. Once they do that they will have the franchise player and the leader that they have been lacking. A brash young kid who thinks he can change the world. Someone like OJ Mayo, Beasely or Rose. With that said the main culprit to the current situation Marbury (last year of contract) will automatically become a trading asset to a team looking to get under the cap. You have your new direction with a franchise player and you have some good players around the franchise player that are currently on the team. I want Isiah gone after this season. My solution for this is after this season get a new GM and bring in a good defensive minded coach, JVG will be welcomed back even though I think he is lacking in the Offensive dept. Carisle I'm fine with too. Before everyone gets all worked up over the poor start don't this is the ideal thing that is happening here because lets face it the KNicks weren't going to win a championship this year or the next and to me making the playoffs for the sake of playoffs isn't very high on my list. I want to make the playoffs to do damage. You don't really make a solid run in the playoffs without that franchise player, the player that the Knicks are going to get in this years lottery, the Knicks will be better for it. We the fans will have a player we want to go watch play.
djsunyc
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11/21/2007  7:01 PM
you still want to keep the guy that put this team together and has been a major player in it's turmoil? vmart = dolan's cousin.
Vmart
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11/21/2007  7:08 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

you still want to keep the guy that put this team together and has been a major player in it's turmoil? vmart = dolan's cousin.

See you aren't looking at the big picture the lottery is and the player the Knicks get will be the big picture. Oh by the way I wish I was Dolan's cousin, I might have his ear and get what I want done and amybe make some money on it too.

oohah
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11/21/2007  10:25 PM
Crawford was NOT the emergency plan. Isiah was expecting a 3 guard rotation, with 1 of them being a guard who can handle the ball and do a little of everything in Crawford b/c if you remember, Marbury got killed in those playoffs in the Nets because we had nobody else who could bring the ball up.

You think Isiah wasn't trying to pick up somebody to fill in for Houston, who's future was very much up in the air?

Isiah may have wanted somebody to do the things you are speaking about, but that doesn't make Crawford not the emergency plan.

I think Marbury got killed in those playoffs because Kidd always has, and always will be much better player.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
BlueSeats
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11/21/2007  10:38 PM
oohah, Crawford say Isiah was courting him before he was the Knicks GM.
oohah
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11/21/2007  10:50 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

oohah, Crawford say Isiah was courting him before he was the Knicks GM.

Okay, even if that is true, it doesn't make Crawford not the Allan Houston backup plan.

I.E. I like this kid Crawford, he will be able to step in if Houston goes down.

Personally, I've never cared for Crawford's game. I like shooting guards who's main skill is shooting, not dribbling.

If I were Isiah, I would make Crawford watch 4 hours of Mitch Richmond and Reggie Lewis footage every day.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
Knicksfan
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11/21/2007  10:50 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

I could have written this article

We have all written pretty much the same in many of our post. And it will still be written until this changes.

This article is right. The fact that is missing is that with an idiot owner that wants power but lacks knowledge, you will probably have the same results. The next man that comes to "save the Knicks" has to have complete control of operations, and Dolan isn't ready to give it up...
Knicks_Fan
islesfan
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11/21/2007  10:55 PM
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by djsunyc:

you still want to keep the guy that put this team together and has been a major player in it's turmoil? vmart = dolan's cousin.

See you aren't looking at the big picture the lottery is and the player the Knicks get will be the big picture. Oh by the way I wish I was Dolan's cousin, I might have his ear and get what I want done and amybe make some money on it too.


The last time the guy, who put this mess together, was in the lottery, he picked Channing Frye.

And that's all I got to say about that.
If it didn’t work in Phoenix with Nash and Stoutamire... it’s just not a winning formula. It’s an entertaining formula, but not a winning one. - Derek Harper talking about D'Antoni's System
FIRING ISIAH WILL NOT MAKE THE SUN SHINE ON THE KNICKS!

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