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Who'd You Rather Have - ZBO or DLEE?
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bobs3304
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If you had to choose 1...
David Lee
Zach Randolph
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King1
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11/17/2007  2:15 PM
Blue seats David said defense is experience just like with turning over the ball. He says just figuring out moves and where the players will be makes things easier. I just think you will see Zach body breaking day in the years to come
AUTOADVERT
BlueSeats
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11/17/2007  2:21 PM
Posted by King1:

Blue seats David said defense is experience just like with turning over the ball. He says just figuring out moves and where the players will be makes things easier. I just think you will see Zach body breaking day in the years to come

Your points on Zach are well taken. I just think we need to compare them based on what we know today, not based on projections of the future, because one could just as easily project an improvement in Zach's D and jumper as they do Lee.
holfresh
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11/17/2007  2:28 PM

This is why it's difficult to take you guys seriously...Zack has made the Knicks competitive before Marbs' and Isiah latest gaff...Lee in the lineup while Zack has been out has made the Knicks the same team they were last year...Lee is a nice role player...Many here want to make him more than he really is, not sure why...Actually I know why....But if you want to ignore what Zack brings to this team and pump Lee up to this mythical figure, go right ahead....
BlueSeats
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11/17/2007  2:34 PM
Posted by holfresh:


This is why it's difficult to take you guys seriously...Zack has made the Knicks competitive before Marbs' and Isiah latest gaff...Lee in the lineup while Zack has been out has made the Knicks the same team they were last year...Lee is a nice role player...Many here want to make him more than he really is, not sure why...Actually I know why....But if you want to ignore what Zack brings to this team and pump Lee up to this mythical figure, go right ahead....

Fresh, please, enough with the racial innuendo. Lee had the highest on/of court ranking of the entire team last year, as well as winning MVP at the Soph all-star game and an invitation to practice with Team USA. It's not like he didn't earn his fans. It's fine to prefer Zach, but please don't taint the conversation with your own nonsensical bias.
nyk4ever
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11/17/2007  2:37 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by holfresh:


This is why it's difficult to take you guys seriously...Zack has made the Knicks competitive before Marbs' and Isiah latest gaff...Lee in the lineup while Zack has been out has made the Knicks the same team they were last year...Lee is a nice role player...Many here want to make him more than he really is, not sure why...Actually I know why....But if you want to ignore what Zack brings to this team and pump Lee up to this mythical figure, go right ahead....

Fresh, please, enough with the racial innuendo. Lee had the highest on/of court ranking of the entire team last year, as well as winning MVP at the Soph all-star game and an invitation to practice with Team USA. It's not like he didn't earn his fans. It's fine to prefer Zach, but please don't taint the conversation with your own nonsensical bias.

That is what he does best though Blue.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
4949
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11/17/2007  2:38 PM
I can't answer this because how can you, when we have basically the same two guys?
I'll never trust this' team again.
holfresh
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11/17/2007  2:40 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by holfresh:


This is why it's difficult to take you guys seriously...Zack has made the Knicks competitive before Marbs' and Isiah latest gaff...Lee in the lineup while Zack has been out has made the Knicks the same team they were last year...Lee is a nice role player...Many here want to make him more than he really is, not sure why...Actually I know why....But if you want to ignore what Zack brings to this team and pump Lee up to this mythical figure, go right ahead....

Fresh, please, enough with the racial innuendo. Lee had the highest on/of court ranking of the entire team last year, as well as winning MVP at the Soph all-star game and an invitation to practice with Team USA. It's not like he didn't earn his fans. It's fine to prefer Zach, but please don't taint the conversation with your own nonsensical bias.

I not here to insinuate anything....I like Lee very much and think he is an outstanding player...But when people here are grading him above Zack in terms of what he brings to the team...What could that reason possibly be Blue...You ignoring it doesn't mean it doesn't exist...
4949
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11/17/2007  2:40 PM
Posted by arkrud:

Scoring is replaceable.
23 or 17 per is not a big difference.
Rebounding is good for both.
Defense is better by Lee but just by effort.
This just is why I like Lee better.
Also he is dependable 100% and he does so many small things to help team win.

I hate to remind everyone that Lee is one step away (as all players are) from being fined or suspended for a game or two. Z is one step away from possibly going to jail if he steps out of line. So I guess dependable wise, Lee is the favorite.
I'll never trust this' team again.
holfresh
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11/17/2007  2:41 PM
Posted by nyk4ever:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by holfresh:


This is why it's difficult to take you guys seriously...Zack has made the Knicks competitive before Marbs' and Isiah latest gaff...Lee in the lineup while Zack has been out has made the Knicks the same team they were last year...Lee is a nice role player...Many here want to make him more than he really is, not sure why...Actually I know why....But if you want to ignore what Zack brings to this team and pump Lee up to this mythical figure, go right ahead....

Fresh, please, enough with the racial innuendo. Lee had the highest on/of court ranking of the entire team last year, as well as winning MVP at the Soph all-star game and an invitation to practice with Team USA. It's not like he didn't earn his fans. It's fine to prefer Zach, but please don't taint the conversation with your own nonsensical bias.

That is what he does best though Blue.

really?
BlueSeats
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11/17/2007  2:42 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by holfresh:


This is why it's difficult to take you guys seriously...Zack has made the Knicks competitive before Marbs' and Isiah latest gaff...Lee in the lineup while Zack has been out has made the Knicks the same team they were last year...Lee is a nice role player...Many here want to make him more than he really is, not sure why...Actually I know why....But if you want to ignore what Zack brings to this team and pump Lee up to this mythical figure, go right ahead....

Fresh, please, enough with the racial innuendo. Lee had the highest on/of court ranking of the entire team last year, as well as winning MVP at the Soph all-star game and an invitation to practice with Team USA. It's not like he didn't earn his fans. It's fine to prefer Zach, but please don't taint the conversation with your own nonsensical bias.

I not here to insinuate anything....I like Lee very much and think he is an outstanding player...But when people here are grading him above Zack in terms of what he brings to the team...What could that reason possibly be Blue...You ignoring it doesn't mean it doesn't exist...


Why don't you ask Portland?
BlueSeats
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11/17/2007  2:44 PM
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by holfresh:


This is why it's difficult to take you guys seriously...Zack has made the Knicks competitive before Marbs' and Isiah latest gaff...Lee in the lineup while Zack has been out has made the Knicks the same team they were last year...Lee is a nice role player...Many here want to make him more than he really is, not sure why...Actually I know why....But if you want to ignore what Zack brings to this team and pump Lee up to this mythical figure, go right ahead....

Fresh, please, enough with the racial innuendo. Lee had the highest on/of court ranking of the entire team last year, as well as winning MVP at the Soph all-star game and an invitation to practice with Team USA. It's not like he didn't earn his fans. It's fine to prefer Zach, but please don't taint the conversation with your own nonsensical bias.

I not here to insinuate anything....I like Lee very much and think he is an outstanding player...But when people here are grading him above Zack in terms of what he brings to the team...What could that reason possibly be Blue...You ignoring it doesn't mean it doesn't exist...


Isn't this response a little two-faced?

oohah
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11/17/2007  2:52 PM
Sometimes the truth isn't so pretty.

Guys can pretend that they are color blind when it comes to lee, but I don't think that is the case. Please take a gander at the film: "The Great White Hype". America loves a white sports hero, craves it actually. It may not be 'you' who thinks that way, but 'you' are not everybody.

For example: another Knick plays bad they are a bum. Lee plays bad, his injury must be still hampering him.

***

I've been calling for Lee to start since his second month in the NBA, but I haven't lost all objectivity when it comes to Lee like some guys.

Loss of objectivity? That is why no one has mentioned that the 2 plays that basically ended the game belong to Lee:

1) Lee failed to box out Artest on Kevin martin's missed free-throw.
2) Lee threw the ball to the pretty girl in the front row when he meant to hit Crawford in the corner.

Had that been Curry or Marbury, they would have been tarred and feathered 1,000,0000 times on this board already.

***

Lee has huge Curry-like holes in his game when it comes to scoring and defense. That is true, I hate to break it to everybody. I would trade him straight up for Artest without thinking about it.

It's just so crazy it might work!

oohah



[Edited by - oohah on 17-11-2007 2:53 PM]
Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
holfresh
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11/17/2007  2:57 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by holfresh:
Posted by BlueSeats:
Posted by holfresh:


This is why it's difficult to take you guys seriously...Zack has made the Knicks competitive before Marbs' and Isiah latest gaff...Lee in the lineup while Zack has been out has made the Knicks the same team they were last year...Lee is a nice role player...Many here want to make him more than he really is, not sure why...Actually I know why....But if you want to ignore what Zack brings to this team and pump Lee up to this mythical figure, go right ahead....

Fresh, please, enough with the racial innuendo. Lee had the highest on/of court ranking of the entire team last year, as well as winning MVP at the Soph all-star game and an invitation to practice with Team USA. It's not like he didn't earn his fans. It's fine to prefer Zach, but please don't taint the conversation with your own nonsensical bias.

I not here to insinuate anything....I like Lee very much and think he is an outstanding player...But when people here are grading him above Zack in terms of what he brings to the team...What could that reason possibly be Blue...You ignoring it doesn't mean it doesn't exist...


Isn't this response a little two-faced?

Yes it is and intended that way....My intention was not to go down that road but why is it always Lee against the world...Whatever player we get or have, it's how is that guy getting in the way of Lee's progression...Let's trade Curry so Lee can get more playing time...Zack should come off the bench because we like Lee...It's never about who gives us the best chance to win...
holfresh
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11/17/2007  3:00 PM

And Blue, my rants aren't even directed at you...You have been one of the most honest guys who shoot from the hip....
Vmart
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11/17/2007  3:02 PM
I don't know why everyone is focusing on the best thing the Knicks have to offer. I mean this should be if you had to choose one Marbury or Mardy, Q-Rich or Balkman, Crawford or Nate, Jefferies or Chandler. Picking between Zach and Lee makes no sense because they are equally good. They both help the team in positive ways. Once again everyone is focusing on the least of NYK problems. The biggest problem with the Knicks is their perimeter shooting and their perimeter defense. To many opposing guards and small forwards are getting off on this team. The Knicks perimeter players don't have the shooting ability or defense to match the opposing players. The Knicks aren't losing because of Lee, Zach and Curry, they are losing because the perimeter player on the kNicks can't guard anyone and they can't shoot.
oohah
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11/17/2007  3:06 PM
Posted by Vmart:

I don't know why everyone is focusing on the best thing the Knicks have to offer. I mean this should be if you had to choose one Marbury or Mardy, Q-Rich or Balkman, Crawford or Nate, Jefferies or Chandler. Picking between Zach and Lee makes no sense because they are equally good. They both help the team in positive ways. Once again everyone is focusing on the least of NYK problems. The biggest problem with the Knicks is their perimeter shooting and their perimeter defense. To many opposing guards and small forwards are getting off on this team. The Knicks perimeter players don't have the shooting ability or defense to match the opposing players. The Knicks aren't losing because of Lee, Zach and Curry, they are losing because the perimeter player on the kNicks can't guard anyone and they can't shoot.

I agree. I would move Crawford for a perimeter player who can play solid D and spot up well. That would make a huge difference.

In the meantime, my starting lineup would be Marbury, Collins, Balkman, Randolph, Curry. (maybe Marbury comes off the bench to teach him a lesson, but he still has to play a lot.) I think that is the most balanced starting lineup.

oohah

Good luck Mike D'Antoni, 'cause you ain't never seen nothing like this before!
holfresh
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11/17/2007  3:09 PM
Posted by Vmart:

I don't know why everyone is focusing on the best thing the Knicks have to offer. I mean this should be if you had to choose one Marbury or Mardy, Q-Rich or Balkman, Crawford or Nate, Jefferies or Chandler. Picking between Zach and Lee makes no sense because they are equally good. They both help the team in positive ways. Once again everyone is focusing on the least of NYK problems. The biggest problem with the Knicks is their perimeter shooting and their perimeter defense. To many opposing guards and small forwards are getting off on this team. The Knicks perimeter players don't have the shooting ability or defense to match the opposing players. The Knicks aren't losing because of Lee, Zach and Curry, they are losing because the perimeter player on the kNicks can't guard anyone and they can't shoot.

I agree to a point...I think the lack of interior defense cause our guards to look so bad on the perimeter...Every guard gets blown by in the NBA...You notice Marbs is always at the rim....Craw can always get in the lane if he wants....But we don't say the other guard is terrible defensively...We think they play bad team defense...
BlueSeats
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11/17/2007  3:13 PM
Posted by holfresh:


And Blue, my rants aren't even directed at you...You have been one of the most honest guys who shoot from the hip....


Thanks, and I didn't take it personally. I'm not committed to one more than the other, I just want to see a fair fight.

But...

A) It's not like we're hyping up Travis Knight or Scotty Brooks
B) You're not much different than papabear saying "all you guys who don't support Zeke and Marbs are racist."

I'm used to it. I used to get called a racist on a near daily basis for my diatribes on realgm... by the same guys who now want to hunt down some knicks with pitchforks. Never with an apology to me and my ilk though.

I'm just surprised that the blacks who prefer Lee, or who don't like Isiah and Steph, don't take you guys to task for your comments. I don't see why they should be any less offended.

Now back to Portland. Why did they want to trade Zach for Lee?
Vmart
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11/17/2007  3:13 PM
Posted by oohah:
Posted by Vmart:

I don't know why everyone is focusing on the best thing the Knicks have to offer. I mean this should be if you had to choose one Marbury or Mardy, Q-Rich or Balkman, Crawford or Nate, Jefferies or Chandler. Picking between Zach and Lee makes no sense because they are equally good. They both help the team in positive ways. Once again everyone is focusing on the least of NYK problems. The biggest problem with the Knicks is their perimeter shooting and their perimeter defense. To many opposing guards and small forwards are getting off on this team. The Knicks perimeter players don't have the shooting ability or defense to match the opposing players. The Knicks aren't losing because of Lee, Zach and Curry, they are losing because the perimeter player on the kNicks can't guard anyone and they can't shoot.

I agree. I would move Crawford for a perimeter player who can play solid D and spot up well. That would make a huge difference.

In the meantime, my starting lineup would be Marbury, Collins, Balkman, Randolph, Curry. (maybe Marbury comes off the bench to teach him a lesson, but he still has to play a lot.) I think that is the most balanced starting lineup.

oohah

I like this lineup because it lets Marbury be a scorer which probably the only thing that he does well. Mardy can guard the off guard and not give up on size. Balkman give energy and hustle. Smart lineup.
nixluva
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11/17/2007  3:13 PM
I've been saying that for a while now too. Zach, Curry & Lee are not the problem. We have a VERY good frontcourt. It's the guards and SF position that has let the team down. I like the Idea of Mardy in that he does the basics and will defend. I can't wait for Balk to get back. The big thing that is puzzling me is why Isiah won't play Chan. The guy may be a rook, but he has the kind of game that fits just what we need and he'll benefit from playing early and often. Why must we see so much of Malik and Jared? I have nothing against Jared, except that I feel Chan is better, but Malik should not be playing.
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