No one has considered if Portland inquired about the availability of Lee before Channing Frye.

Posted by Bippity10:

Posted by sebstar:

Posted by Bippity10:

Was Channing Frye traded because the fans gave up on him or because Isiah gave up on him? I personally don't remember being involved in the trade discussions. This notion that you can't rebuild in NY is a lie put forth by management teams that are unwilling to rebuild in NY.

Ridiculous. Yeah, when all else fails, just send a baseless shot at Isiah.

I guess you think incessant vitriol directed at you as a player and a man is conducive to the development of a young player. Just using this website as a sample, horrible things were said about Frye and the guys at this site are generally mild mannered.

NY is a mean, demanding city. The idea that young, high profile players can wilt under the heat of the big lights and intense pressure is not some lame ass theory drummed up by Isiah in order to deflect criticism. Its been proven time and time again in every league for decades.

Players just have more latitude to develop (ups and downs included) in other cities under the watch of more forgiving management, fan base, and sport writing medium.

Actually this was not a shot at Isiah. But I guess your knee jerk reaction to anything that could possibly be considered negative is understandable considering your history.

This was actually a criticism(not a baseless shot, a criticism. I'm pretty sure criticism's based on opinion are allowed on message boards) of Dolan, Layden and Isiah and all the other people in management that have spent 7 seasons since Patrick refusing to completely rebuild and doing things half asse, and then blaming the fans for this. They want to fill the seats so that you will keep paying. That is the only thing that keeps them from rebuilding. The fear that you won't go to the games. Not the booing, or the criticism, but the fear that you won't go.

On a side note, What in the world does trading Frye to Portland have to do with the fans impatience with the team?

Well then "GUY", you should have fleshed out your opinion a little more effectively, rather than a by-the-numbers Isiah dig.

I think I've stated why I believe NY management, NY press, and especially NY fans can all combine to retard the development of a young high profile draft pick. Fans certainly influence management and what the hell have you guys been saying about Frye? What has the press said about Frye? I'm not going to go around in circles with you.

Bippity, you and I don’t disagree on the premise; we just disagree about the target. Why would Isiah (or Layden for that matter) care if fans continue to come to the Garden? Because their boss cares. If Dolan signaled that he would be up for taking the hit and rebuilding, then the guys he hires to run his franchise would pursue that.

Posted by misterearl:

rembee - imagine The Garden with Layden proposing a total rebuild requiring five years of fan patience to make things right.

How many ticket-buying fans go for that?

Exactly. Further, if Dolan saw that as a possible direction, then why replace Layden with a high profile and controversial guy like Isiah Thomas? Why wouldn’t you go with a faceless numbers man who can absorb the criticism that comes with five years of losing then move on? Dolan wanted to make a splash…enter Zeke and Marbury.

To Isiah’s credit, he hasn’t gone Layden’s route and completely sacrificed the future in the quest to put wins together and make the playoffs. Thus, the “half-assed” critique, which I understand, but the reality is, if you aren’t going “all-in” then going “half-assed” is your only option. A “total rebuild” just was never in the cards.

Curry or bust? What? Channing wasn't producing! Curry was. End of that conversation.

You can't say isiah gave up on him or didn't use him properly. We are not talking about saving private Ryan. Channing sucked last year. There is film to prove it.

If channing got his legs underneath him and is now on a testosterone booster then we need to be concerned. Chances are he didn't gain dirk, Duncan, sheed, kg, or whoever else we all compared him to, skill over a few months.

Zach and curry will bust his ass.

Posted by COSSUCKS:

Is this where any non knick player now gets the benefit of the doubt?

Doesn't every Knick player get the benefit of the doubt?

Posted by RemBee76:

Bippity, you and I don’t disagree on the premise; we just disagree about the target. Why would Isiah (or Layden for that matter) care if fans continue to come to the Garden? Because their boss cares. If Dolan signaled that he would be up for taking the hit and rebuilding, then the guys he hires to run his franchise would pursue that.

Posted by misterearl:

rembee - imagine The Garden with Layden proposing a total rebuild requiring five years of fan patience to make things right.

How many ticket-buying fans go for that?

Exactly. Further, if Dolan saw that as a possible direction, then why replace Layden with a high profile and controversial guy like Isiah Thomas? Why wouldn’t you go with a faceless numbers man who can absorb the criticism that comes with five years of losing then move on? Dolan wanted to make a splash…enter Zeke and Marbury.

To Isiah’s credit, he hasn’t gone Layden’s route and completely sacrificed the future in the quest to put wins together and make the playoffs. Thus, the “half-assed” critique, which I understand, but the reality is, if you aren’t going “all-in” then going “half-assed” is your only option. A “total rebuild” just was never in the cards.

This such ridiculous reasoning. This reasoning would carry weight if we were talking about an owner other than Dolan. How much you want to wager he's shelled out more dollars towards albatross contracts and eaten more buyout money than he would have over the past 4yrs if he just rebuilt the correct way?

Remember Dolan's pockets are deep!

So if he can stomach paying James, Jamal, Curry, and Jeffries, eating Jalen's and Mo's contract absorbing Steph, Steve, Q, Malik's contracts then he could have taken the hit in attendance possibly dropping by a few thousand.

And to top it off we've been losing at a worst pace than a rebuild team the past 4yrs. The Apologetic Detractors want to crutch this reasoning by saying millions of dollars would have been lost due to a depleting fan base while nullifying the fact every new stud that comes to a franchise(from the draft) not only gets back the majority of those lost but also reaches out and grabs the untapped fan base.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 08-13-2007 7:03 PM]

Posted by TrueBlue:

Posted by BigC:

This is nothing new from what Frye did last summer. Last year it was reported that he was the best in summer camp. This is completely different from Frye playing against real competition.

True.

So does that mean what Nate did in Summer League along with Nichols and Chandler is thrown out the window? I'd say so.

[Edited by - TrueBlue on 08-13-2007 3:17 PM]

Here's the difference; when you have a rep of being a soft player like Frye or Skita, what you do in the Summer League doesn't really matter. What Chandler and Nichols did is a little more accurate I would say to how they will preform in live games.

>>So if he can stomach paying James, Jamal, Curry, and Jeffries, eating Jalen's and Mo's contract absorbing Steph, Steve, Q, Malik's contracts then he could have taken the hit in attendance possibly dropping by a few thousand.

TrueBlue - you're missing a critical point in your assessment of the image-conscious Dolan. Remember, this is the same person who canned Marv Albert for sounding too negative, Camby and Spree for not showing for media training and Larry Brown for trashing his players (while going behind Zeke's back) in the press.

The money, as defined by buy-outs, is spare change to Dolan and Cablevision. Just take one glance at the annual report when you have a moment.

Dolan KNOWS there is MUCH more to lose in New York than mere ticket sales. In this unique media-driven market, Dolan KNOWS the damage of being perceived as not doing everything in his power to be aggressive and put a decent product on the floor would have negative consequences in the perception of the franchise that would last for much longer than a winning season could correct.

Fans would revolt.

Say what you will about the current management, you cannot question the aggressiveness with which it has attacked the many problems it inherited.

The cable show must go on.

[Edited by - misterearl on 08-13-2007 9:20 PM]

bippity - you are missing the point of the discussion by a mile.

It is not so simple as being defined by wins and losses in New York

In New York, you MUST be relevant or you die. Isiah Thomas a unique job description which has been evolving during his tenure.

First and foremost, as rembee has alluded, Zeke was hired to re-generate interest in the franshise. His next job was to acquire leadership. That has been problemmatic as loyal and saavy leaders do not grow on trees. Nor do free agents or generous trading partners.

The next task was to restructure the roster and acquire younger talent for the long haul.

It is a work in progress that few have patience, or the basketball business intellect, for




[Edited by - misterearl on 08-13-2007 9:36 PM]

So in other words as a Knick fan just accept the fact that all GM's will be yes men for Dolan and when young players are traded away, it is my fault as a fan that this happened?

bippity - it has nothing to do with you

It is about the perception that Cablevision holds, based on its criteria or research data, for the majority of consumers in its highly valuable New York area market

The Knicks are a corporate enitity that bases its direction on image and perception, more than making the playoffs

[Edited by - misterearl on 08-13-2007 9:51 PM]