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What kind of team are we
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COSSUCKS
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8/7/2007  7:09 PM
Posted by Panos:

Did you not say that shot blocking was not important for a championship team?
Is that not your point?

I didnt say not important. I said it wasnt mandatory to be one of the best shot blocking teams to win a championship. The Spurs were ranked 11th in shot blocking.
Meanwhile teams like the Hawks and Clippers were ranked way high on the shot blocking lists and didnt even make the playoffs.
The Jazz were one of the worst shot blocking teams and they went to the western conferance finals.
AUTOADVERT
Panos
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8/7/2007  7:14 PM
And this relates to our Knicks how?
Are we otherwise a championship level team?
nixluva
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8/7/2007  7:23 PM
While it would be a big help to have shotblocking, it's not the only way to achieve good defense. I'd be happy with just getting our perimeter players to shutdown all the 3pt'ers teams take against us. It's the one thing that we should be able to stop if we really want to. You're not gonna block everything, but you can at least get your hands up in the face of guys at the 3pt line. I think Curry can get to the point where he's up to block a game if he's in better shape this year. I have no faith in Zach blocking shots, cuz he's not an explosive guy.

To really improve tho, we have to clean up the roster so that guys like Mardy, Balk, Chan and DNic can get in there. Yeah they're green, but they have the size and quickness to defend. The more we can mix in these guys the better we'll be. Goodness knows they can't be worse than what we've been getting.
COSSUCKS
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8/7/2007  7:23 PM
Posted by Panos:

And this relates to our Knicks how?
Are we otherwise a championship level team?

No and thats the whole point. We are not a shot blocker away from being a champion. In fact our defensive fg% was middle of the pack and our points in the paint allowed percentage was one of the top 10.

Anji
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8/7/2007  7:26 PM
The knicks are a team missing the "straw" to stir the drink. Marbury is not the guy.........
"Really, all Americans want is a cold beer, warm p***y, and some place to s**t with a door on it." - Mr. Ford
Ira
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8/7/2007  7:38 PM
Posted by COSSUCKS:

I dont even think that our defensive FG% allowed was that bad last season

[Edited by - COSSUCKS on 08-07-2007 5:02 PM]

We were 11th in the league which means 11th worst. Not that bad but well below average.

Ira
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8/7/2007  7:41 PM
One thing we did well last season was rebound the ball. We were tied for fourth in the league and we were second in rebound differential. Replacing Frye with Zach should improve that stat.

So I guess our strengths next season will be rebounding and inside scoring. Our weaknesses will be d and outside shooting.
WOODMANnYk
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8/7/2007  9:17 PM
This team definitely have an identity! They're defenseless! This team is incapable of defending as a whole throughout a game and on a consistent basis. Thats where it's going to be a long season for this knicks ballclub.

The Future. GO KNICKS!
JohnWallace44
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8/7/2007  9:18 PM
Our strengths were rebounding and drawing fouls and depth
unfortunately our weaknesses were turning the ball over and missing foul shots.

This means that our strengths were negated directly by our weaknesses. If we could cut the TO's and make foul shots we'd be blowing teams out.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
newyorknewyork
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8/7/2007  9:28 PM
Strong frontcourt defense is a key for a championship. Shotblocking is a great skill that aids strong frontcourt defense. Adding a shotblocker could put us in the direction of hopfully building a strong frontcourt defense. Having 4 players that play no defense and having one player who can block shots isn't going to make a good defense. But having a dominating defensive anchor in the middle could definatly make it easier for the other 4 players to play defense as long as they put the effort in.

We definatly need shotblocking though. We need an intimidator to allow our guards to push up on there opponents. Make guards heisitate a little bit from coming into the paint.
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JohnWallace44
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8/7/2007  9:30 PM
is it a given that Curry will not improve and that Zach cannot be motivated?
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
Vmart
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8/7/2007  10:02 PM
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Strong frontcourt defense is a key for a championship. Shotblocking is a great skill that aids strong frontcourt defense. Adding a shotblocker could put us in the direction of hopfully building a strong frontcourt defense. Having 4 players that play no defense and having one player who can block shots isn't going to make a good defense. But having a dominating defensive anchor in the middle could definatly make it easier for the other 4 players to play defense as long as they put the effort in.

We definatly need shotblocking though. We need an intimidator to allow our guards to push up on there opponents. Make guards heisitate a little bit from coming into the paint.

See this is the kind of stuff that drives everyone here crazy. The Knicks problem doesn't stem from Curry he is the least of your problems. The real problem with the Knicks is their perimeter defense. They ranked 4th worst in three point field goals allowed at close to 38%. Now where is Curry's problem in this equation he doesn't guard the perimeter he is a low box player and guards the opposing centers. SHot blocking is vastly overrated, here is a stat that all you Camby lovers will like a lot because if you are going to blame Curry for the teams perimeter woes then Camby has to take a hit too. Because Denver allowed a whopping 105 points per game to their opponents as opposed to 100 points per game by the KNicks. Sometimes a player could be a solid position defender but people here get enamoured with the athletic play such as a block shot. But Curry is very capable of doing that too. You guys remember the first game of last year vs Grizzlies where Curry came out of nowhere to block a shot he has that capability too but you must realize that as Curry gets better and better the refs will swallow the wistle and allow Curry to be more aggressive defensively. Lack of perimeter defense is a reason the Knicks need a guy like Artest who gives a crap if he is loony the KNicks need wins and they need them fast and the perimeter defense needs to be improved.

knicks1248
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8/7/2007  10:12 PM
I'm not in total agreement with the whole shot blocking thing as a factor to much..The names that TMS put out there were all great defenders overall. Thats defensive rebounding, help D and shotblocking. just getting a shot blocker will do nothing especially if your not capable of running on a consistant basis .

The 99 knicks had two teams, our bench was the run and gun with camby (a great shot blocker/rebounder/help d), and spree a great perimeter defender who could finish on the other end. Our starters had Ewing KT and ward and Allan, thats a well balance half court team.

Blkman, nate, lee JC , and zach should be our bench squad for the most part. Our starters with curry still needs a perimeter threat other then Q in order to balance this out and have flexabilty to switch up.
Thats why the Artest deal in so important because he obviously brings what we have been missing, perimeter defense and out side shooting.
ES
bigbeast
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8/7/2007  10:17 PM
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Strong frontcourt defense is a key for a championship. Shotblocking is a great skill that aids strong frontcourt defense. Adding a shotblocker could put us in the direction of hopfully building a strong frontcourt defense. Having 4 players that play no defense and having one player who can block shots isn't going to make a good defense. But having a dominating defensive anchor in the middle could definatly make it easier for the other 4 players to play defense as long as they put the effort in.

We definatly need shotblocking though. We need an intimidator to allow our guards to push up on there opponents. Make guards heisitate a little bit from coming into the paint.

See this is the kind of stuff that drives everyone here crazy. The Knicks problem doesn't stem from Curry he is the least of your problems. The real problem with the Knicks is their perimeter defense. They ranked 4th worst in three point field goals allowed at close to 38%. Now where is Curry's problem in this equation he doesn't guard the perimeter he is a low box player and guards the opposing centers. SHot blocking is vastly overrated, here is a stat that all you Camby lovers will like a lot because if you are going to blame Curry for the teams perimeter woes then Camby has to take a hit too. Because Denver allowed a whopping 105 points per game to their opponents as opposed to 100 points per game by the KNicks. Sometimes a player could be a solid position defender but people here get enamoured with the athletic play such as a block shot. But Curry is very capable of doing that too. You guys remember the first game of last year vs Grizzlies where Curry came out of nowhere to block a shot he has that capability too but you must realize that as Curry gets better and better the refs will swallow the wistle and allow Curry to be more aggressive defensively. Lack of perimeter defense is a reason the Knicks need a guy like Artest who gives a crap if he is loony the KNicks need wins and they need them fast and the perimeter defense needs to be improved.


You make some good points, but let me play devils advocate. Usually when you have a defensive anchor/shotblocker/shot changer in the paint, it allows the perimeter D to press up on thier man with no fear of getting beat off the dribble because they know they have help behind them. So in other words, defensive help in the paint can make you a little stronger out front. Without a shotblocker/shot changer the already shaky perimeter D might lay off a little, because they dont want to get beat.




[Edited by - bigbeast on 07-08-2007 10:18 PM]
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
knicks1248
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8/7/2007  10:23 PM
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Strong frontcourt defense is a key for a championship. Shotblocking is a great skill that aids strong frontcourt defense. Adding a shotblocker could put us in the direction of hopfully building a strong frontcourt defense. Having 4 players that play no defense and having one player who can block shots isn't going to make a good defense. But having a dominating defensive anchor in the middle could definatly make it easier for the other 4 players to play defense as long as they put the effort in.

We definatly need shotblocking though. We need an intimidator to allow our guards to push up on there opponents. Make guards heisitate a little bit from coming into the paint.

See this is the kind of stuff that drives everyone here crazy. The Knicks problem doesn't stem from Curry he is the least of your problems. The real problem with the Knicks is their perimeter defense. They ranked 4th worst in three point field goals allowed at close to 38%. Now where is Curry's problem in this equation he doesn't guard the perimeter he is a low box player and guards the opposing centers. SHot blocking is vastly overrated, here is a stat that all you Camby lovers will like a lot because if you are going to blame Curry for the teams perimeter woes then Camby has to take a hit too. Because Denver allowed a whopping 105 points per game to their opponents as opposed to 100 points per game by the KNicks. Sometimes a player could be a solid position defender but people here get enamoured with the athletic play such as a block shot. But Curry is very capable of doing that too. You guys remember the first game of last year vs Grizzlies where Curry came out of nowhere to block a shot he has that capability too but you must realize that as Curry gets better and better the refs will swallow the wistle and allow Curry to be more aggressive defensively. Lack of perimeter defense is a reason the Knicks need a guy like Artest who gives a crap if he is loony the KNicks need wins and they need them fast and the perimeter defense needs to be improved.

Well those stats about denver don't tell the whole truth, Cambys shot blocking and shot altering led them to a lot of fast break points, which would allowed more touches per team. I mean denver is not a half court team they run, especially when they got A.I. Scoring more point doesnt always come from Bad defense by the opposing team, if you shooting the ball with 17 seconds left on the shot clock your going to end up scoring a lot of points. there aren't any great defensive teams in the NBA, because there are hardly any great defensive players, plus the rules have change. As long as you can make big stops at key junctures in the game, you give yourself a chance to win every night.
ES
Vmart
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8/7/2007  10:27 PM
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Strong frontcourt defense is a key for a championship. Shotblocking is a great skill that aids strong frontcourt defense. Adding a shotblocker could put us in the direction of hopfully building a strong frontcourt defense. Having 4 players that play no defense and having one player who can block shots isn't going to make a good defense. But having a dominating defensive anchor in the middle could definatly make it easier for the other 4 players to play defense as long as they put the effort in.

We definatly need shotblocking though. We need an intimidator to allow our guards to push up on there opponents. Make guards heisitate a little bit from coming into the paint.

See this is the kind of stuff that drives everyone here crazy. The Knicks problem doesn't stem from Curry he is the least of your problems. The real problem with the Knicks is their perimeter defense. They ranked 4th worst in three point field goals allowed at close to 38%. Now where is Curry's problem in this equation he doesn't guard the perimeter he is a low box player and guards the opposing centers. SHot blocking is vastly overrated, here is a stat that all you Camby lovers will like a lot because if you are going to blame Curry for the teams perimeter woes then Camby has to take a hit too. Because Denver allowed a whopping 105 points per game to their opponents as opposed to 100 points per game by the KNicks. Sometimes a player could be a solid position defender but people here get enamoured with the athletic play such as a block shot. But Curry is very capable of doing that too. You guys remember the first game of last year vs Grizzlies where Curry came out of nowhere to block a shot he has that capability too but you must realize that as Curry gets better and better the refs will swallow the wistle and allow Curry to be more aggressive defensively. Lack of perimeter defense is a reason the Knicks need a guy like Artest who gives a crap if he is loony the KNicks need wins and they need them fast and the perimeter defense needs to be improved.


You make some good points, but let me play devils advocate. Usually when you have a defensive anchor/shotblocker/shot changer in the paint, it allows the perimeter D to press up on thier man with no fear of getting beat off the dribble because they know they have help behind them. So in other words, defensive help in the paint can make you a little stronger out front. Without a shotblocker/shot changer the already shaky perimeter D might lay off a little, because they dont want to get beat.




[Edited by - bigbeast on 07-08-2007 10:18 PM]

Look you know and I know that the Knicks guards were very weak on the perimeter it had nothing to do with them slacking back to help Curry or Lee for that matter they were just bad at defense. Isn't that our complaint most of the time here Jamal plays very little to no defense on his man, Marbury finally started to attempt to play defense after years of taking it off. I thought Curry played defense pretty decently last year he altered shots on many occasions. But teams were lights out with the Knicks guards they abused them every which way. Opponent guards got by them at will putting pressure more on Curry and Lee who I think did a decent job. The Knicks guards play slack defense because they know they can't stop anyone from getting close to the basket so they opt to give up the open shot and in the NBA if you allow someone to be open enough they will start to make their shots.
djsunyc
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8/7/2007  10:28 PM
i don't think anybody knows what kind of team we are going to be. when there's roster turnover every season, new starters, etc...there is no identity established b/c that could change each season with new players.

the question is...what's the goal for the team this season and over the next 2-3?
bigbeast
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8/7/2007  10:40 PM
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by bigbeast:
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by newyorknewyork:

Strong frontcourt defense is a key for a championship. Shotblocking is a great skill that aids strong frontcourt defense. Adding a shotblocker could put us in the direction of hopfully building a strong frontcourt defense. Having 4 players that play no defense and having one player who can block shots isn't going to make a good defense. But having a dominating defensive anchor in the middle could definatly make it easier for the other 4 players to play defense as long as they put the effort in.

We definatly need shotblocking though. We need an intimidator to allow our guards to push up on there opponents. Make guards heisitate a little bit from coming into the paint.

See this is the kind of stuff that drives everyone here crazy. The Knicks problem doesn't stem from Curry he is the least of your problems. The real problem with the Knicks is their perimeter defense. They ranked 4th worst in three point field goals allowed at close to 38%. Now where is Curry's problem in this equation he doesn't guard the perimeter he is a low box player and guards the opposing centers. SHot blocking is vastly overrated, here is a stat that all you Camby lovers will like a lot because if you are going to blame Curry for the teams perimeter woes then Camby has to take a hit too. Because Denver allowed a whopping 105 points per game to their opponents as opposed to 100 points per game by the KNicks. Sometimes a player could be a solid position defender but people here get enamoured with the athletic play such as a block shot. But Curry is very capable of doing that too. You guys remember the first game of last year vs Grizzlies where Curry came out of nowhere to block a shot he has that capability too but you must realize that as Curry gets better and better the refs will swallow the wistle and allow Curry to be more aggressive defensively. Lack of perimeter defense is a reason the Knicks need a guy like Artest who gives a crap if he is loony the KNicks need wins and they need them fast and the perimeter defense needs to be improved.


You make some good points, but let me play devils advocate. Usually when you have a defensive anchor/shotblocker/shot changer in the paint, it allows the perimeter D to press up on thier man with no fear of getting beat off the dribble because they know they have help behind them. So in other words, defensive help in the paint can make you a little stronger out front. Without a shotblocker/shot changer the already shaky perimeter D might lay off a little, because they dont want to get beat.




[Edited by - bigbeast on 07-08-2007 10:18 PM]

Look you know and I know that the Knicks guards were very weak on the perimeter it had nothing to do with them slacking back to help Curry or Lee for that matter they were just bad at defense. Isn't that our complaint most of the time here Jamal plays very little to no defense on his man, Marbury finally started to attempt to play defense after years of taking it off. I thought Curry played defense pretty decently last year he altered shots on many occasions. But teams were lights out with the Knicks guards they abused them every which way. Opponent guards got by them at will putting pressure more on Curry and Lee who I think did a decent job. The Knicks guards play slack defense because they know they can't stop anyone from getting close to the basket so they opt to give up the open shot and in the NBA if you allow someone to be open enough they will start to make their shots.

There is no denying our perimeter D was horrendous. But as far as Curry is concerend, he needs to stop playing with a fear of fouling. I notice from time to time that when a player darts into the lane, Curry pulls up a little, seeming to fear making body contact because he's used to getting ticky-tack fouls called on him. Curry will throw his arm up, but he sometimes pulls his body away making him smaller and his length shorter if that makes any sense.

This is something that Curry can easily overcome. As I said, Curry is a player that has been getting in foul trouble since he entered the league. Because of that, I think it makes him cautious at times on the D because he doesn't want to foul out. Curry's low-post improvement last season (far less offensive fouls) shows that he can and is willing to learn and can improve. But he has to want it. You can tell he wanted to be a dominant offensive player the way he played last year.

But Isiah needs to let him know that we have enough fire power now (with Zach here) that it is okay to take a few chances on the Defensive end, depending on the game situation (clock, points we are ahead or down, fouls he already has, momentum, etc). Once Eddy understands the game better, he will know when he can jump out of his shoes going for a block to save a key basket, or when to let up because he has 4 fouls, or we are up double figures etc....The way Eddy improved last year, I have doubt that he can improve on the other side of the ball.

[Edited by - bigbeast on 07-08-2007 10:42 PM]
"Man, who knows with this team." Aguirre.
COSSUCKS
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8/7/2007  11:02 PM
Posted by Ira:
Posted by COSSUCKS:

I dont even think that our defensive FG% allowed was that bad last season

[Edited by - COSSUCKS on 08-07-2007 5:02 PM]
We were 11th in the league which means 11th worst. Not that bad but well below average.

No I believe you are looking at ppg allowed. We were 11th in PPG allowed. Bad but not nearly as horrible as some like to make it.

We were 15th in defensive fg% allowed. Thats middle of the pack.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/byteam?cat1=Total&cat2=opponent&sort=329
Elite
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8/7/2007  11:13 PM
Posted by Bippity10:

If we go by stats, nothing with our team is that bad. But if you pay attention the games and see the amount of uncontested lay-ups, dunks and three pointers we give up during crucial runs and stops you would realize that we have a long way to go on the defensive end.

good post
What kind of team are we

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