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Simplify the debate: Who wins more in 07-08
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JohnWallace44
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Who will win more games in the 07-08 season? The Knicks with their current roster or the Celts with their current roster?
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arkrud
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7/31/2007  1:53 PM
The differenc between NY and Boston is clear:
NY can win 50%+ if we will get exstrimely lucky in everything (no major inguries, or no personal issues, or no busting youth)
Boston can win -50% if they will get exstrimely unlucky in everything (major injury, and chemistry problem, and coaching problem)

One team has proven winners, another proven losers
Knicks players need to prove they can go somewhere and KG/Pierce/Allan need to prove they they can go all the way
Both team have goals but the Knick goals are just baby steps...
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
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izybx
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7/31/2007  2:32 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by Solace:

Barring injury, the Celtics should easily win more games. There's no shame in that, so lovers need to stop getting so defensive.

Comparisons to Webber are ridiculous and will cause some to question your basketball knowledge, so please stop using broken logic.

Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen = dominance. At the center and point guard positions they can put moderately good players and that puts them likely as one of the top 4 teams in the NBA. That squad should win around 56 games with no roster changes.

[Edited by - Solace on Jul 31 2007 03:26 AM]

Yeah, seriously. Barring major injuries to either team, the Celtics should win 10 to 15 more games than us (if not more). I'd say they have a chance to win the east, whereas we may not even make the playoffs again.

Didnt you say that you werent even watching the games last season? How can you have a clue how the team will do when youre just looking at a boxscore?
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JohnWallace44
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7/31/2007  2:36 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Look up what the reaction was to the Webber trade was instead of spouting nonsense.

I tell you what, since it's your claim, why don't YOU look it up and post it here. Then, why don't you tell us how Chris Webber, who was well known as a defensive liability after the surgery is equivalent to Kevin Garnett? When you can post these two pieces of made up information, then we can have a discussion.

Also, just so you don't make this mistake, your source cannot come from myspace.com or your own personal blog.

How's this?

Webber Trade Changes Eastern Conference NBA Odds
76ers now 12-1 to win the East; favored to win the Atlantic
Feb 25, 2005 | 200 words, 0 images


SACRAMENTO, CA, Feb. 25 -- The trade of star forward Chris Webber to the Philadelphia 76ers improves the Sixers shot at winning the East, according to oddsmakers at Sportsbook.com. Webber brings some baggage, but also plenty of skill and a willingness to win, boosting the Sixers overall game.

"We made some small adjustments to the entire Eastern Conference", said Peter Childs, Sportsbook.com oddsmaker. "Philly made the most significant improvement with the acquisition of C-Webb. They saw their Eastern Conference odds go from 20-1 to 12-1".

Webber, one of the NBA's elite power forwards and a five-time All-Star, joins Allen Iverson ...

Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
Solace
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7/31/2007  2:41 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:
Posted by Solace:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Look up what the reaction was to the Webber trade was instead of spouting nonsense.

I tell you what, since it's your claim, why don't YOU look it up and post it here. Then, why don't you tell us how Chris Webber, who was well known as a defensive liability after the surgery is equivalent to Kevin Garnett? When you can post these two pieces of made up information, then we can have a discussion.

Also, just so you don't make this mistake, your source cannot come from myspace.com or your own personal blog.

How's this?

Webber Trade Changes Eastern Conference NBA Odds
76ers now 12-1 to win the East; favored to win the Atlantic
Feb 25, 2005 | 200 words, 0 images


SACRAMENTO, CA, Feb. 25 -- The trade of star forward Chris Webber to the Philadelphia 76ers improves the Sixers shot at winning the East, according to oddsmakers at Sportsbook.com. Webber brings some baggage, but also plenty of skill and a willingness to win, boosting the Sixers overall game.

"We made some small adjustments to the entire Eastern Conference", said Peter Childs, Sportsbook.com oddsmaker. "Philly made the most significant improvement with the acquisition of C-Webb. They saw their Eastern Conference odds go from 20-1 to 12-1".

Webber, one of the NBA's elite power forwards and a five-time All-Star, joins Allen Iverson ...

First, source? Secondly, your claim is trading three role players for Chris Webber gave the 76ers a slight boost? Wow! Nobody disputed that. The Atlantic was TERRIBLE that year. Actually the Atlantic is terrible every year. Boston won the division with 45 games, but people thought Philly had a better shot, since they had similar records at the time of the trade. How is this panic? WTF? With the Garnett trade, the Celtics might very well be FAVORITES to WIN the EAST. Can you yet admit that you overdramatized this or should we go further?
The Knicks 2026 NBA Champions!
Panos
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7/31/2007  2:46 PM
Posted by Solace:


First, source? Secondly, your claim is trading three role players for Chris Webber gave the 76ers a slight boost? Wow! Nobody disputed that. The Atlantic was TERRIBLE that year. Actually the Atlantic is terrible every year. Boston won the division with 45 games, but people thought Philly had a better shot, since they had similar records at the time of the trade. How is this panic? WTF? With the Garnett trade, the Celtics might very well be FAVORITES to WIN the EAST. Can you yet admit that you overdramatized this or should we go further?

I'm willing to put money on it.
JohnWallace44
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7/31/2007  2:54 PM
Look up what the reaction was to the Webber trade was instead of spouting nonsense.

I tell you what, since it's your claim, why don't YOU look it up and post it here. Then, why don't you tell us how Chris Webber, who was well known as a defensive liability after the surgery is equivalent to Kevin Garnett? When you can post these two pieces of made up information, then we can have a discussion.

Also, just so you don't make this mistake, your source cannot come from myspace.com or your own personal blog.
[/quote]

How's this?

Webber Trade Changes Eastern Conference NBA Odds
76ers now 12-1 to win the East; favored to win the Atlantic
Feb 25, 2005 | 200 words, 0 images


SACRAMENTO, CA, Feb. 25 -- The trade of star forward Chris Webber to the Philadelphia 76ers improves the Sixers shot at winning the East, according to oddsmakers at Sportsbook.com. Webber brings some baggage, but also plenty of skill and a willingness to win, boosting the Sixers overall game.

"We made some small adjustments to the entire Eastern Conference", said Peter Childs, Sportsbook.com oddsmaker. "Philly made the most significant improvement with the acquisition of C-Webb. They saw their Eastern Conference odds go from 20-1 to 12-1".

Webber, one of the NBA's elite power forwards and a five-time All-Star, joins Allen Iverson ...
[/quote]

First, source? Secondly, your claim is trading three role players for Chris Webber gave the 76ers a slight boost? Wow! Nobody disputed that. The Atlantic was TERRIBLE that year. Actually the Atlantic is terrible every year. Boston won the division with 45 games, but people thought Philly had a better shot, since they had similar records at the time of the trade. How is this panic? WTF? With the Garnett trade, the Celtics might very well be FAVORITES to WIN the EAST. Can you yet admit that you overdramatized this or should we go further?
[/quote]


What do you want more sources?

I compared the reaction on this site and in the media of the Webber trade and the Garnett trade. Which is valid. There was an overreaction to the Webber trade and the Sixers ultimately were blown up shortly after. In my opinion, Garnett will change the Celts, but he won't change the landscape of the East.
Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
Solace
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7/31/2007  3:01 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

What do you want more sources?

I compared the reaction on this site and in the media of the Webber trade and the Garnett trade. Which is valid. There was an overreaction to the Webber trade and the Sixers ultimately were blown up shortly after. In my opinion, Garnett will change the Celts, but he won't change the landscape of the East.

Everything you've posted and everything we've seen highly contracts your claims. I'm just waiting for you to either give evidence to support your claim or for you to admit that YOU are overreacting. That is all.

If the Sixers got Garnett instead of Webber and gave up the three players they did, their odds would've been 3 to 1. Don't you see that as a huge difference and very contrary to what you're suggesting?
The Knicks 2026 NBA Champions!
Solace
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7/31/2007  3:02 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

What do you want more sources?

I compared the reaction on this site and in the media of the Webber trade and the Garnett trade. Which is valid. There was an overreaction to the Webber trade and the Sixers ultimately were blown up shortly after. In my opinion, Garnett will change the Celts, but he won't change the landscape of the East.

Everything you've posted and everything we've seen highly contracts your claims. I'm just waiting for you to either give evidence to support your claim or for you to admit that YOU are overreacting. That is all.

If the Sixers got Garnett instead of Webber and gave up the three players they did, their odds would've been like 4 to 1 to win the east. Three times better! Don't you see that as a huge difference and very contrary to what you're suggesting?

The Knicks 2026 NBA Champions!
JohnWallace44
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7/31/2007  3:07 PM
Your argument is falling apart bro.

There was an overreaction then, and there is one now. Period.

When this settles out I want to see where the Celts are with the oddsmakers. It won't be 4-1 to win the East.

Everyone cites Hollinger like he's god. He doesn't buy the hype. But I'm crazy for saying it huh? That's interesting.

Alan Hahn: Nate Robinson has been on a ridonkulous scoring tear lately (remember when he couldn't hit Jerome James with a Big Mac in early January?)
Panos
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7/31/2007  3:14 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Your argument is falling apart bro.

There was an overreaction then, and there is one now. Period.

When this settles out I want to see where the Celts are with the oddsmakers. It won't be 4-1 to win the East.

Everyone cites Hollinger like he's god. He doesn't buy the hype. But I'm crazy for saying it huh? That's interesting.

Ok, what odds are you willing to give me?
Solace
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7/31/2007  4:00 PM
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Your argument is falling apart bro.

There was an overreaction then, and there is one now. Period.

When this settles out I want to see where the Celts are with the oddsmakers. It won't be 4-1 to win the East.

Everyone cites Hollinger like he's god. He doesn't buy the hype. But I'm crazy for saying it huh? That's interesting.

You're missing the point, but it's okay, as you're intentionally missing the point because you can't admit that the situations are VERY VERY different. As if it's some revelation that people consider Chris Webber an improvement over Brian Skinner. Whatever.

You think the Knicks will be better than Celts and cite this retarded example to prove it. You're in a very steep minority. And, yes, I said retarded.
The Knicks 2026 NBA Champions!
tkf
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7/31/2007  4:33 PM
Posted by Solace:
Posted by JohnWallace44:

Your argument is falling apart bro.

There was an overreaction then, and there is one now. Period.

When this settles out I want to see where the Celts are with the oddsmakers. It won't be 4-1 to win the East.

Everyone cites Hollinger like he's god. He doesn't buy the hype. But I'm crazy for saying it huh? That's interesting.

You're missing the point, but it's okay, as you're intentionally missing the point because you can't admit that the situations are VERY VERY different. As if it's some revelation that people consider Chris Webber an improvement over Brian Skinner. Whatever.

You think the Knicks will be better than Celts and cite this retarded example to prove it. You're in a very steep minority. And, yes, I said retarded.

yea, that is a different situation. Kg is on another level than the, then broken down webber, but the essence of his post holds true. People will overeact to this trade, espeically the one's who live and take joy in putting the knicks down... that is the main point I am sure... and I agree with him on that..
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
Solace
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7/31/2007  5:05 PM
Posted by tkf:

yea, that is a different situation. Kg is on another level than the, then broken down webber, but the essence of his post holds true. People will overeact to this trade, espeically the one's who live and take joy in putting the knicks down... that is the main point I am sure... and I agree with him on that..

Why is it a downer on the Knicks if the Celtics improved? Hasn't the thesis been that the Knicks are still young and growing; not a finished product? If we're supposed to buy into that, then why the outrage over the Celtics?
The Knicks 2026 NBA Champions!
nyk4ever
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7/31/2007  5:39 PM
The Celtics by 12+ games.
"OMG - did we just go on a two-trade-wining-streak?" -SupremeCommander
nixluva
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7/31/2007  5:52 PM
The Celtics are improved, but to me they will have a few things that will hold them back a bit from the expectations people are putting forth for them.

They will have to develop some chemistry on O and D. The O will likely come easy, but how about the D? KG can't block everything.

They don't have a bench. They may do great when the SL is in, but once they start substituting it'll get rough. Ainge will have to make some moves to improve the bench.

How good will Rondo be? Who will they add to back him up?

Without a bench how with they do over 82 games? How will the lack of a bench effect them in the playoffs?
Vmart
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7/31/2007  5:57 PM
Celtics are gonna be a hell of a team next year no doubt about it. They have veterans and that is the key word. They know how to win as they have done so in the past. They should win the Atlantic hands down. No reason for the kNicks to fear that though. They matchup pretty good vs them and are deeper so they might be pretty even there. Look for Cetics, Toranto and the Knicks to battle it out The Knicks will probably end up third in the division with a solid record, somewhere in the vicinity of 47 wins or so. Toranto will get 50 wins and Boston probably 52 wins. KG is a nice player but its not like they got Shaq or Duncan now thats an automatic championship.
djsunyc
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7/31/2007  5:58 PM
Posted by Vmart:

Celtics are gonna be a hell of a team next year no doubt about it. They have veterans and that is the key word. They know how to win as they have done so in the past. They should win the Atlantic hands down. No reason for the kNicks to fear that though. They matchup pretty good vs them and are deeper so they might be pretty even there. Look for Cetics, Toranto and the Knicks to battle it out The Knicks will probably end up third in the division with a solid record, somewhere in the vicinity of 47 wins or so. Toranto will get 50 wins and Boston probably 52 wins. KG is a nice player but its not like they got Shaq or Duncan now thats an automatic championship.

does nj play a part in this?
Silverfuel
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7/31/2007  6:04 PM
Posted by djsunyc:

does nj play a part in this?
they suck
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Vmart
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7/31/2007  6:11 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Vmart:

Celtics are gonna be a hell of a team next year no doubt about it. They have veterans and that is the key word. They know how to win as they have done so in the past. They should win the Atlantic hands down. No reason for the kNicks to fear that though. They matchup pretty good vs them and are deeper so they might be pretty even there. Look for Cetics, Toranto and the Knicks to battle it out The Knicks will probably end up third in the division with a solid record, somewhere in the vicinity of 47 wins or so. Toranto will get 50 wins and Boston probably 52 wins. KG is a nice player but its not like they got Shaq or Duncan now thats an automatic championship.

does nj play a part in this?

Oh man I totally forgot about them mofos.
Chalk that up and make the Knicks 4th in the division.
islesfan
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7/31/2007  9:19 PM
Posted by Vmart:
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by Vmart:

Celtics are gonna be a hell of a team next year no doubt about it. They have veterans and that is the key word. They know how to win as they have done so in the past. They should win the Atlantic hands down. No reason for the kNicks to fear that though. They matchup pretty good vs them and are deeper so they might be pretty even there. Look for Cetics, Toranto and the Knicks to battle it out The Knicks will probably end up third in the division with a solid record, somewhere in the vicinity of 47 wins or so. Toranto will get 50 wins and Boston probably 52 wins. KG is a nice player but its not like they got Shaq or Duncan now thats an automatic championship.

does nj play a part in this?

Oh man I totally forgot about them mofos.
Chalk that up and make the Knicks 4th in the division.

Sounds about right.

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