checketts originally hired layden to be more of a behind the scenes glorified scout so to speak. true, he was named vice pres. but the original plan was to leave him behind the scenes and let checketts handle the pr, player and coach relations and business end of it all. checketts is the type of leader that people respect, layden does not come accross as well. so his problems are magnified that much more becasue he does not handle the press well and does not come accross as a passionate, capabale leader. when checketts and van gundy left, dolan panicked and made layden the face of the entire franchsie. that was the big mistake. layden is a capable vice pres or head scout, but as a gm he is in over his head. THAT my friends is dolan's fault. crucify layden all you want, but the man who deserves your wrath is jimmy (son of cabelvision) dolan...

Posted by spencerdoobie:

Posted by Pike:

Posted by spencerdoobie:

anyone who says Layden does not understand basketball is a total idiot..........

Obviously, the term was used with a great grain of sarcasm... Being that we're being bold with our statements... invoking my first ammendment rights... anybody that supports this idiot (Layden) doesn't know a thing about the game of basketball.

sorry tough guy, but i am a knick fan at the end of the day and while i agree that layden has made his fair share of bad calls i will continue to support him and hope for his success because he is running the team that i love................if my support and belief in my squad makes me an idiot than so be it.......personally, i believe that people who come on message boards and refer to a man who was partly resposible for a run of 20 straight years in the playoffs (think about that streak for a minute before you jump to respond, it's pretty incredible) as an "idiot" is a dip****.......
true, stcokton, malone, frank layden, dave checketts, jerry sloan all had a lot to due with the success in utah along with scott layden, but scott layden ran the franchise for a long time and ran it well......he is far from an idiot
i don't deny that Layden has not done the job thus far in nyc, but i think that the jury is still out on many of his moves (mcdyees, milos) the reality is he inherited a very tough situtaion and it all started with the ewing situation. (by the way, who was the dumbass that drew a paralell between ewing demanding a trade and hypothetically speaking if kobe was to go to kupchek and demand to be traded? those situations would be handled so differently, it is a waste of my time to try to explain that. honestly, that is THE WORST analogy I have ever heard)
i am not saying that layden should be a finalist for executive of the year, but i am saying that i think most people are way to quick to pin all of the knicks problems on him. in reality, if you are looking for someone to lay the blame on for the demise of the knicks, you need look no forthur than james dolan.

it was dolan that forced out checketts, he was also the reson van gundy left. checketts originally hired layden to be more of a behind the scenes glorified scout so to speak. true, he was named vice pres. but the original plan was to leave him behind the scenes and let checketts handle the pr, player and coach relations and business end of it all. checketts is the type of leader that people respect, layden does not come accross as well. so his problems are magnified that much more becasue he does not handle the press well and does not come accross as a passionate, capabale leader. when checketts and van gundy left, dolan panicked and made layden the face of the entire franchsie. that was the big mistake. layden is a capable vice pres or head scout, but as a gm he is in over his head. THAT my friends is dolan's fault. crucify layden all you want, but the man who deserves your wrath is jimmy (son of cabelvision) dolan......

[Edited by - Pike on 05/17/2003 12:42:15]

Posted by tkf:

Posted by spencerdoobie:

anyone who says Layden does not understand basketball is a total idiot..........let's get our facts straight. the man was an assistant coach for 10 years, a scout for another 5, a director of player peronsel in utah for another 5 before being haired as the gm in new york. i will admit, Layden has taken some calculated risks that did not work out.....but answer me this: what was he supposed to do when Ewing was begging to be traded? You all would have done exactly what Layden did, find the best deal available. how was he supposed to know that Glen Rice was going to be such a bust and barley be able to move? how was he supposed to know that Luc Longley was uninterested in being a basketball player anymore and just wanted to get paid so he could surf in australlia? ya, it's easy to say that in hindsight we should have let ewing's contract come off the books, but hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20. And how many of you can honsetly say you would not have done the mcdyees deal? nobody knew the extent of his knee problems. He was 27 at the time of the trade, had been an all star, a bonified 20-10 guy. Layden HAD to make that deal and anyone who says that they would not make that move is either LYING or on crack! Yes, Layden has made some mistakes, but for the most part he is a victim of very bad luck. He is a good GM and an even better person and I hope he has better luck in the future.......

Let's get Lebron!

come on dukes, I don't care about his credentials, all we know is that his work to date has been horrible. THE MAN DOES NOT UNDERSTAND HOW TO RUN A BASKETBALL TEAM...PERIOD!!!!

fIRST OF ALL I would not have done the trade for a guy comming off major knee surgery, not for this team that desperately needed to get young and develop a good big man, this for a GM is called knowing you team and what it needs, not making rushed moves....

As far as Ewing goes, that is no excuse man, If kobe went to Mitch Kupchak and demanded a trade should mitch give in and trade him for a bunch of overpaid bums, I mean the Houston Rockets wanted to get rid of Anderson, Steve francis would not pass him the ball, the team laughed at his contract demand, and what do the knicks do? we take both him and Eisley off their hands with one fell swoop.. come on dukes good basketball people don't make these moves....

A good Gm would have tried to make Ewing happy his last year here and let him walk off the books the next year, a good knowledgeable basketball man would have done that!!!

Ewing was NOT going to retire, eventhough he should have in 99 he was not retiring and since that was not happening the knicks should have smoothed things over, keep the peace and let him ride out the final year, albeit off the bench or starting. The comparison with Kobe is correct because weither it is a old superstar or a young one, you don't put your team in salry cap hell with overpaid bums for the next 7 years just to make a guy happy!!! The knicks had 1 year left with Ewing and Layden instead of being a real GM put the knicks future in jeapordy with that trade..

I don't see how you can think otherwise!!!

Posted by DefAndReb:

Ewing was NOT going to retire, eventhough he should have in 99 he was not retiring and since that was not happening the knicks should have smoothed things over, keep the peace and let him ride out the final year, albeit off the bench or starting. The comparison with Kobe is correct because weither it is a old superstar or a young one, you don't put your team in salry cap hell with overpaid bums for the next 7 years just to make a guy happy!!! The knicks had 1 year left with Ewing and Layden instead of being a real GM put the knicks future in jeapordy with that trade..

I don't see how you can think otherwise!!!

The only way to smooth things over with an aging prima donna like Ewing was to trade him. If he doesn't get what he wants (contract extension or trade), then you've created a worse situation than if you trade him for bad contracts, which, by the way, was not Layden's intent - he thought Rice would be good and that Longley's injury would heal. Layden didn't have much of a choice. Politics is everything in business.

People aren't light switches. You can't just say to Ewing "No, we'll let you ride your contract out this last year on the bench, then throw you a big party! Sound good?" Had they done that to Ewing, every player in the league would have been aware of it, and the Knicks would be on their blacklist, just like Chicago after the way they treated Jackson, Jordan and Pippen. Ewing would have been humiliated, coming off the bench on "his" team, with no extension and no trade.

Patrick wanted an extension that Layden would have been insane to give him. You think Layden wanted Pat to leave? No way. Pat demanded to leave if he wasn't getting the extension. That means he's leaving. Doing it any other way creates bad blood, and that is far worse for the organization than trading him.

Kobe demanding to leave means you make some player/exec moves to make him happy. Kobe is a benefit to the team. Creakly old Ewing was a DETRIMENT to the team at that point. Would you do backflips for Ewing when keeping him around guarantees you lose more games?

Layden's a bad GM, no argument there, but he actually did the right thing, politically, by trading Ewing, because that's what Ewing demanded, and it matters to other players that veteran superstars get respect.

Keeping Ewing around against his wishes would have been very disrespectful, and that matters a lot.

Posted by tkf:

[quote]Posted by spencerdoobie:

we take both him and Eisley off their hands with one fell swoop.. !


what was that about eisley?

nice try stud........

STFU!! is that all you got, is that it?!!!!!!!!! come one dukes you be for real, everyone who reads that post understands, we took eisley and Anderson off Houstons and the mavs hands, I don't need to spell that out, you have nothing and you respond with that... you should delete that quick..

After I emasculated you on my last post you come back with that... You were made to look foolish... Admit it!!!

ok, first of all "dukes"......nice job on the anderson trade, i admit i was wrong. i thought he was already into the deal that houston signed him to after he left utah........i stand corrected......even then would you rather have anderson or rice? hopefully, if you have any knowlede you will say anderson......

as for everything else, you are wrong or confused.....

1. eisley played in Dallas, not Houston (who cares what you say now, you got that wrong to start with)

2. When did grunfield work in utah? that's what i thought....

3. layden does have a proven track record, with solid draft picks (malone, stockton, russell and anderson in the second round, he is the one who found kirelenko) and trades (jeff malone for jeff hornacek was his biggest steal) he was second for executive of the year twice while in utah, look it up............
3. If you say that the knicks were already "blacklisted" becasue no free agents wanted to play with ewing, then wouldn't it make sense to trade him? (oh, by the way grant hill wears #33 becasue ewing is his idol. if you think that he did not come to ny because of ewing then you are a moron) thanks for proving my point while contracdicting yourself at the same time..........

now, to repeat myself AGAIN (read this part slowly) I am not syaing layden has done a good job since he has been in ny. what i am saying is that he does not deserve most of the blame for the demise of the knicks. the blame should be on dolan, hands down. you obviously don't see what I am saying about the ewing deal........(again read SLOWLY this time) I never said that it was a good move, all I said was at the time it was the best deal available and layden's hands were tied. ewing wanted a ridiculous extension, since layden wisely would not give it to him ewing demanded to be traded. layden being the classy guy that he is understood everyhting ewing had done for the franchise so he wanted to give him what he wanted, while at the same time find the best deal available. if ewing wanted to play 4 more years, it was not going to be with the knicks he was kiling the team, he HAD TO GO........now looking back, it obviously didn't work out for the benefit of ewing or the knicks, but hindsight is always 20/20.........the blazers should have drafted jordan over sam bowie but at the time nobody was saying that becasue bowie was supposed to be a legit 7 footer with star potential.........the point is it's always easy to look back and say that you would do somehting different if you can see after the fact that it didn't work out...........that's not called knowledge it's called common sense

put that in your pipe and smoke it............"dukes"