Posted by RemBee76:

Posted by nyk4ever:
If Isiah chose to rebuild this through conventional ways, the reactions around this forum would sound quite a bit different.

But you are contradicting the props you gave for Allanfan's post which was saying its all about the wins.

I give him props for being one of the few honest ones here. Hey, maybe you would sit patiently through a rebuild and the multiple losing seasons without being critical of the moves, or the players acquired, or the GM, or chanting "Fire ___" at the drafts. I'll take your word for it.

But you would be one of the few. Even here where "We Shoulda Rebuilt" is the UK Mafia's party line, certified members were saying Frye was "cooked" after his second game of his second season, claimed that Nate is "nuts", nodded in agreement with Larry Brown when he called Trevor Ariza "delusional" and reveled in fat jokes about Eddy Curry while judging that he had reached his ceiling at the ripe old age of 22.

Yeah, sounds like the ideal environment to rebuild a team in.

A) Don't think for a second that Dolan doesn't understand his market and doesn’t cater to this petulant peanut gallery and B) please don’t tell me it woulda all been different if we didn’t have Marbury, cause you know that’s bull ****.

Now continue with your regularly scheduled ranting.

the posters on these online forums make up what? 5% of the knicks' fanbase? is that enough to use them as a strong enough base for an argument for why the knicks can't rebuild?

the knicks' can't rebuild b/c the owner doesn't want them to. the influence doesn't seem to be money b/c the knicks make up a miniscule amount of the cablevision empire. maybe previous owners were more interested in $$$'s but seeing how dolan operates, it's basically a toy to him with which he can do whatever he wants.

Posted by RemBee76:


But you are contradicting the props you gave for Allanfan's post which was saying its all about the wins.

I give him props for being one of the few honest ones here. Hey, maybe you would sit patiently through a rebuild and the multiple losing seasons without being critical of the moves, or the players acquired, or the GM, or chanting "Fire ___" at the drafts. I'll take your word for it.

But you would be one of the few. Even here where "We Shoulda Rebuilt" is the UK Mafia's party line, certified members were saying Frye was "cooked" after his second game of his second season, claimed that Nate is "nuts", nodded in agreement with Larry Brown when he called Trevor Ariza "delusional" and reveled in fat jokes about Eddy Curry while judging that he had reached his ceiling at the ripe old age of 22.

Perhaps I should have been more clear.

I was agreeing with Allanfans statement that the fans have no reason to be amped up because the team has been poor since 2001. Not only has the team been poor but they've been poor and they havent even been rebuilding, which is the core of the problem for me. The team wasn't rebuilding and they still couldn't even make the playoffs in the East, thats pathetic and any team with the resources such as the Knicks should not have that happen, theres just no way.

Understand a bit better now?

Yeah, sounds like the ideal environment to rebuild a team in.

A) Don't think for a second that Dolan doesn't understand his market and doesn’t cater to this petulant peanut gallery and B) please don’t tell me it woulda all been different if we didn’t have Marbury, cause you know that’s bull ****.

Now continue with your regularly scheduled ranting.

It appears you must have been reading these forums for quite some time before you actually started posting here since you have takin akin to finding my posts and trying to discredit them or you are a poster from this forum that has taken on a new handle because not only have you been arguing over almost all my posts, you're also being quite snide... this is all cool but to bad you weren't paying enough attention.

I never once said the Marbury trade was a bad move. I have always said that it was a move that needed to be made for both parties. Steph needed to come home and change his image and the Knicks needed Steph to come in to reinvigerate a fanbase that was quickly losing interest. It worked out for Dolan's pockets but it didn't work out for the Knicks team or it's fans becuase since Marbury has been here the team has went absolutely nowhere. Is that Stephs fault? I blame it PARTIALLY on him, since he's had coaches fired and teammates traded and if you say he hasn't than your just not paying attention, but I digress. Either way, the Marbury trade had to be made and Ive always said so. The problem is the Marbury trade was made and Marbury was practically given a Executive role and allowed to make his own decisions about the team and I blame Isiah/Dolan for that.

Posted by misterearl:

The Marbury Papers

Solace - so please help me out here. Can you define what level of individual output on the court would make you satisfied with Marbury?

I think achievements for Marbury would be on multiple dimensions. First, let's not talk about stats.

On the court: I'd like to see him distributing the ball, looking for his own shot LAST, and being an overall leader and positive influence. I'd like to see him encourage positive attitude, positive play and try to keep guys in line and keep guys focused. I'd like to see him set an example of the court by playing hard in all aspects of the game, even if that causes his minutes to be reduced, due to getting tired from it. I'd like to see him sound reasonably intelligent when talking to the media, not like he just was released from a mental institution. Finally, I'd like him to contain himself and realize the impact he has on other players.

I still think the amount of damage he did to Eddy Curry's career when Curry didn't make the All-Star team is going to tarnish Curry, as a player. That's the Marbury influence and that's why Curry now can't be bothered to improve his game.

Posted by djsunyc:
so dolan seems perfectly content getting ridiculed for 4 years of layden, followed by incessant ridiculing towards isiah for NOT rebuilding, the awful lb season, and more bad press with a sexual harrassment trial...yet he's afraid of the fanbases' reaction to a "blow it up" rebuild?

Layden was only ridiculed by the media and fanbase at large after his team won 30 games. Some may have been on to the damage he was doing before that, but most were satisfied to let him ride Grunfeld's coat tails until the team started sinking.

lb was fired after his awful season, and no, I dont think Dolan is overly concerned about the sexual harassment trial. Marbury's "better ho" comment has received more press coverage.

Finally, Isiah isn't ridiculed for NOT rebuilding, and that is exactly my point. Heck, even nyk4ever is on record for saying he liked the Marbury trade. Isiah is being ridiculed for losing. I know you know there is a difference.

Posted by islesfan:

Isiah is being ridiculed for how he is building this team and for the pathetic product that he's putting on the court.

Isiah says you can't rebuild with lottery picks, then he changes his mind and says that he's building around picks.

Isiah says that nobody ever came to watch the salary cap, then he starts talking about how they can be under the cap in a few years and then he blows that up by trading for Randolph.

He says Larry Brown should have won with that roster and had enough defensive players. Then he becomes coach and he drafts Balkman and signs Jared "The Glue" Jeffries. The result? 33 wins and no playoffs or lottery pick.

The list goes on and on.

In spite of all this, I still believe...Pass the Kool-Aid please

Posted by RemBee76:

Posted by islesfan:
The list goes on and on.

With nothing on the list meaning diddley-squat to 95% of the fans in New York if the Knicks had managed to win 10 more games last season, no matter if their long term prospects were no better.

And you know what? Isiah never hires Larry Brown, and the Knicks have better luck with injuries last year, and that team does win 43 games.

So yeah, now we are building around Zach Randolph, and that puts a beach-ball sized pit in my stomach.

But you read and listen to what Knick "fans" have to say and you realize they are getting the player they were asking for, if not the player they deserve.

You make 43 wins sound like it means something extremely significant.

I'd love to know how you've come to the conclusion that 95% of Knicks fans don't care about the direction of this team. And who "asked" for Zach Randolph? Check those "No Thanks" lists from over a year ago that have Zach Randolph's name all over it. Hell, even you didn't want him.

None of us "deserve" Zach Randolph, Eddy Curry, Stephon Marbury, Isiah Thomas and James Dolan.

Posted by islesfan:

You make 43 wins sound like it means something extremely significant.

I'd love to know how you've come to the conclusion that 95% of Knicks fans don't care about the direction of this team.

You want to address specific numbers while the over-all point soars over your head.

41 wins, 43, or 45, you know that for a vast majority that would be enough. In fact, Dolan is banking on it.

And how can we really argue? People were fine with Layden when we were traded away multiple first rounders for Othella Harrington; Scottie didn't see 1/8th of the wrath Isiah has because we squeaked into the playoffs his first two years.

Even after 38 wins on the back of an aging roster, they applauded the trade of a 7th pick from the first round (+ Camby) for Antonio McDyess because we were "one player away".

Nonsense, even a healthy Dice didn't get us into serious contention. But even now, long after the fact, you have guys on here like djsunyc who defend the trade from Layden's point of view. "He was tearing up the pre-season" they say, before he tore up the knee he probably shouldn't have been playing on.

Point is, Isles, you and I probably agree on the over-all course of action this team should have taken, probably as far back as the '99-'00 season.

We disagree that this course of action was ever a possibility.

"We shoulda blown it up and rebuilt". Yeah, and we shoulda convinced Michael Jordan to stick with baseball and Ewing would have had a couple of championships, at least.

Posted by islesfan:
People were fine with Layden??? Show me one.

I've read here, more than once, from certified UK Mafia members, that the McDyess trade would have been a good one for us if he had turned out to be healthy.

But under Isiah its all about the rebuild.

Go figure.

Posted by nyk4ever:
I think the only thing you'll hear from people around here is that Layden was better than Isiah

I rest my case.

Posted by RemBee76:

Posted by nyk4ever:
I think the only thing you'll hear from people around here is that Layden was better than Isiah

I rest my case.

Bull**** dude.

You ain't resting anything.

Isiah and Layden are complete polar opposites of each other... neither of them good. Isiah makes too many moves, Layden didn't make enough. They are both horrible.

For a dude who puts up a ton of snide remarks, you sure like to back down easy.

[Edited by - nyk4ever on 07-23-2007 5:56 PM]

Did someone say that fans were alright with Layden? Possibly the worst post since the "Duncan is garbage post of the summer of 2004"