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Jamal Crawford or Fred Jones
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joec32033
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Given the choice who would you rather keep if you had to choose? I know taking just career stats into account Jamal is a clear winner, but taking all things into account.
Jamal Crawford
Fred Jones
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VDesai
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7/5/2007  9:51 AM
Ron-Ron is an underrated offensive player. He gets to the line more than Craw and has improved his 3 pt shooting recently. He's a legit 18-19 a game guy with the potential to be league's best perimeter defender.

Honestly I have no problem giving up Jamal to get Artest. But I'd try to get them to also take back JJ if they really want him.
AUTOADVERT
TMS
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7/5/2007  9:57 AM
if they'd be willing to take back 1 of the JJ's in the process, i'd give up Jamal to clear up all that longterm cap... but on a 1 for 1 deal, no thanks.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
MS
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7/5/2007  10:11 AM
Honestly you need to think about it, Jamal doesn't really deliever wins he prevents them, aside from the occasional game takeover where he helped put the team in that position. He is exciting when he is on, but terrible when he is off. We are not losing that much on offense. We have two players that can score at will at pf/c. And Marbury can do the same.

Career Numbers
Crawford 13.6pts 4.0ass 2.7rbs 1.1stls 2.1tos 40%fg 34%3fg
Artest 15.4pts 3.1ass 5.0rbs 2.1stls 2.1tos 42%fg 32%3fga


Last Season was Jamal's Best by many accounts
Crawford 17.6pts 4.4ass 3.2rbs 2.7tos 1.0stls 40%fg 32%3fg 15fga 37min
Artest 18.8pts 3.1ass 6.5rbs 2.1tos 2.1stls 44%fg 36%3fga 15fga 38min

So they minutes and the shot attemps are the same, he scores more, rebounds more, turns it over less, more stls, higher fg % from inside and outside the arc, and he locks a player down.

Not trading crawford for artest is not only stupid it ensures we are going no where. I hope jamal can flourish, but he really hasn't done any special in new york outside of a few games. For being such a playmaker he isn't dissing out that many more assists.

Crawford is a 6th man a starks type scorer off the bench, you want to win under 40 games you can stick with him, you want to make a deep run into the playoffs you have to go with artest. I know he is crazy and can go off the deep end, but you take that chance for one of the top 10 two way players in the league and at his best he is a top 15. Jamal is around 35
McK1
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7/5/2007  10:25 AM
Posted by TMS:

but he doesn't take over a game & light up the scoreboard the way Jamal can when he gets it going... we don't have any other player like Jamal in that sense...

Stephon Marbury got a 76 mill extension because of that very ability. give Marbury the green light afforded Jamal and let Mardy worry about running the show.
the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
TMS
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7/5/2007  10:28 AM
Artest has been a starter for much of his career while Jamal has averaged 4 less mpg over his, so commparing career #'s are skewed... anyway, no one's saying Artest isn't a better player than Jamal... the question is do you give up what you have in Jamal for a risky player like Artest... obviously you would, but i wouldn't unless we were getting rid of some other longterm contract like JJ or Turd in the process.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
MS
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7/5/2007  10:42 AM
Crawford is a long term contract, and like the point that was just brought up, if isiah told marbury to shot every time he touched it and not play defense, you have the green light he is putting up more points than jamal.

Do you want to win, or suffer through another ****ty season, because without a defender covering up isiahs mistakes it just can't happen.
Bippity10
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7/5/2007  10:43 AM
What I want to know is how MS was able to vote 7 times
I just hope that people will like me
TMS
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7/5/2007  10:52 AM
Posted by MS:

Crawford is a long term contract, and like the point that was just brought up, if isiah told marbury to shot every time he touched it and not play defense, you have the green light he is putting up more points than jamal.

Do you want to win, or suffer through another ****ty season, because without a defender covering up isiahs mistakes it just can't happen.

i agree, i want Artest on this team... i just don't think it's necessary to give up Jamal to get him... we easily have the assets to get Artest in his current situation... SAC wants to unload him bad & they really don't have many other options available to them... i think the expirings & Nate & maybe some cash is about all they could reasonably expect to get for him at this point.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
MS
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7/5/2007  11:04 AM
They can get more and frankly orlando is trying to get him and sac is open to getting Turkalou back. So you need to give up jamal if that is the case.

Nelson, Artest, Lewis and Howard keeps the magic ahead of the knicks and perhaps keeps us out of the playoffs. Right now its no lock to get in we are going to have our hands full with the bobcats, bucks, and hawks.

Then what type of rotation are we working with do you think that Jamal really has good value around the leauge. Nate, Morris and an expiring.

If Jamal stays we don't get balkman on the floor as much, we don't get collins on the floor as much. I would love to do Jefferies, Morris, Nate for Artest, and then have a backup plan in case richardson goes down put our most effective players right now are lee and balkman as far as making things happen in the flow of the game, those guys need above 20 minutes a night.
Bonn1997
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7/5/2007  11:11 AM
Posted by TMS:
Posted by Bonn1997:

I don't think he'd get 6 assists in 27 mpg unless he's playing the PG position (which would never work). I think you'd look at 14 and 3.5 or 4 in 27 mpg.

why would it never work? when he's been called upon to play more minutes at the point last year, he's delivered with double digit Assist games... he played very under control when playing the point in LB's system a year before that (Marbury was technically the PG but LB used him more as a SG on several occasions)... i bet you anything if you gave Jamal starter's minutes as a PG, he'd easily give you a lot more than the 5.4 assists that Marbury put up last season.

In seven years, Jamal's never showed me he can *run an offense* (that's totally different from merely *playing under control*). And he really played well in the LB year for only about 3 or 4 weeks. Otherwise, it was one of the worst years of his career.
VDesai
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7/5/2007  11:15 AM
Do you need to give up Craw? I have a feeling they can do Rose, QRich, Balkman or Chandler, Nate or Mardy for Artest, Kenny Thomas. The money is a wash (the Rose and QRich contracts match up exactly with Artest and Kenny's) and they get 2 prospects out of it. Not to mention Q can play a little.

Turkoglu is a decent player but I don't know that he makes for a better trade than what I proposed above.

And if they wait till September they could take on Jones/Dickau and actually save money instead of taking back Q or Rose.
TMS
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7/5/2007  11:16 AM
Posted by MS:

If Jamal stays we don't get balkman on the floor as much, we don't get collins on the floor as much. I would love to do Jefferies, Morris, Nate for Artest, and then have a backup plan in case richardson goes down put our most effective players right now are lee and balkman as far as making things happen in the flow of the game, those guys need above 20 minutes a night.

if you're giving up Nate, Dickau & Jones, you are getting rid of some of the glut at the G position anyway... both Jamal & Mardy would see their fair share of minutes in the rotation next season regardless if those players were here or not... you could even add someone like Derek Fisher also to add to the depth at the G position & be a back of the rotation player after you made that trade I proposed... there's really no need to give up Jamal to get Artest... if ORL wants him so bad, let them have him... he's going to opt out anyway & end up here anyway after next season, watch.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
djsunyc
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7/5/2007  11:18 AM
Posted by VDesai:

Do you need to give up Craw? I have a feeling they can do Rose, QRich, Balkman or Chandler, Nate or Mardy for Artest, Kenny Thomas. The money is a wash (the Rose and QRich contracts match up exactly with Artest and Kenny's) and they get 2 prospects out of it. Not to mention Q can play a little.

Turkoglu is a decent player but I don't know that he makes for a better trade than what I proposed above.

And if they wait till September they could take on Jones/Dickau and actually save money instead of taking back Q or Rose.

few things, i think since jones/dickau were traded on draft night, BEFORE the new nba fiscal year begins (july 1st), they don't adhere to the 60 day rule in terms of trades. i think the slate is wiped clean and they can be moved in any combination for any deal starting july 11th. someone needs to confirm that tho.

secondly, i think the hedo for artest rumor is bogus - i bet it's hedo for SAR or KT. orlando just lost darko, leaving a big hole in their frontcourt. they need to replace him so hedo for one of their bigs make sense.


[Edited by - djsunyc on 07-05-2007 11:18 AM]
VDesai
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7/5/2007  11:22 AM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by VDesai:

Do you need to give up Craw? I have a feeling they can do Rose, QRich, Balkman or Chandler, Nate or Mardy for Artest, Kenny Thomas. The money is a wash (the Rose and QRich contracts match up exactly with Artest and Kenny's) and they get 2 prospects out of it. Not to mention Q can play a little.

Turkoglu is a decent player but I don't know that he makes for a better trade than what I proposed above.

And if they wait till September they could take on Jones/Dickau and actually save money instead of taking back Q or Rose.

few things, i think since jones/dickau were traded on draft night, BEFORE the new nba fiscal year begins (july 1st), they don't adhere to the 60 day rule in terms of trades. i think the slate is wiped clean and they can be moved in any combination for any deal starting july 11th. someone needs to confirm that tho.

secondly, i think the hedo for artest rumor is bogus - i bet it's hedo for SAR or KT. orlando just lost darko, leaving a big hole in their frontcourt. they need to replace him so hedo for one of their bigs make sense.


[Edited by - djsunyc on 07-05-2007 11:18 AM]


This is what happens when you try to include them in a trade on RealGM tradechecker, which is usually good about contract situations:

Fred Jones from New York
Jones was recently traded and as a result he cannot be traded until Aug 28 August, 2007.


Dan Dickau from New York
Dickau was recently traded and as a result he cannot be traded until Aug 28 August, 2007.
MS
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7/5/2007  11:47 AM
Bonn brings up a great point, jamal hasn't really showed any real improvement over his career in any aspect of his game, he is the same player he was a few years ago, and with isiah green lighting him he is going to be the same player his entire time here.

you guys are acting like jamal is really that valuable? Is he? 34 games is the most he has won in 7 seasons and he has played a ton of minutes in his last four. His contract gets up there 9, 10 million in a few years and frankly i don't see what the big deal is......

It's a good trade we get better and start to become a tough defensive team with jamal in sactown. You guys are acting like we don't have the worst defensive pair in the league at the 4/5. Jamal is going to start and you could make the case we have three of the worst defenders at their position on the court at the same time, and with Jamal bombing away there are going to be even more transition baskets.

We go from fringe playoff team to finals contender with this move, and your worried about crawford. Nate if he is not included in the deal can space the floor as much as jamal and would score close to as many points if he is taking 15 shots a night
TMS
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7/5/2007  11:52 AM
omg, no one is saying Jamal is better than he really is... the point is you don't NEED to give up Jamal to get Artest... you should be able to get him with the expirings & a couple other minor assets... if SAC doesn't want to do it, to hell with them... you wait it out a year & Artest ends up in NY anyway.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
BigC
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7/5/2007  12:08 PM
Posted by McK1:

OK but how many will Jamal give up?

Wade vs NY 28.5 ppg

Kobe vs NY 31

Rip vs NY 32 ppg

and even tho he doesn't guard billups

Chauncey 20.3pts 10.6 assists vs NY



[Edited by - McK1 on 04-07-2007 10:51 PM]

Are you looking at his last years totals or are you looking at those players stats for their career against the Knicks. Also are youlooking at games that Jamal started compared to games he came off the bench or him not even playing at all? Remember Jamal got injuried.

For Example you said Wade is averaging 28 points vs the Jamal. Now how is that going to be more than Jamal this year when he Jamal dropped 23 and 51 points against the Heat with Wade playing. Jamal did not play against the Heat the last time around when Wade was there.

Then you want to compare Jamal to Kobe saying that Kobe averaged 31. Do you remember that game? Jamal was going all over the plac on Kobe. How many players in the league do you see that Kobe can't guard. Yes, kobe dropped about 30 something but Jamal dropped 24 solid points. Also the last time I checked Kobe is the scoring leader and averages 30 plus a game. So is that really that bad for Kobe to drop 30 something points when we know he can drop 50 on other teams? Knicks and Lakers only play twice a year. The Knicks won both games.

Next you brought up Rip, last time I checked Rip is the man that Marbury guards. Jamal normally guards Billups. And he normally does well.

Jamal played against the Pistons 2 times last year one game he had 29 points and 11 assists, the other game Jamal had 18 points. While those two games that Jamal played against Billups, Billups had 22points one game and 17 points the next. Remember Jamal got injuried and did not play Detroit that last time around. So your stats do not include all the games last year that he played against Jamal. It just includes all the stats that Billups got against the Knicks.

Also Wade and Jamal only played agaisnt each other twice. One game Wade had 20 the next game he has 37. Jamal had 51 and Isiah sat down Jamal and Wade was still left in the game to get his 37 points.

So Jamal 51, and 23 against Wade. While Wade scored 37 and 20. You do the math and tell me who out play who? Also the as a whole team the Knicks can beat the Heat. The Heat do not have an answer for Curry. The Knicks can lose to garbage teams in the league but they know how to beat the Heat.





[Edited by - BigC on 07-05-2007 12:24 PM]
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BigC
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7/5/2007  12:26 PM
Also, I never knew that Fred Jones had 7 family members that were posters on this board.


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joec32033
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7/5/2007  1:06 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by VDesai:

Do you need to give up Craw? I have a feeling they can do Rose, QRich, Balkman or Chandler, Nate or Mardy for Artest, Kenny Thomas. The money is a wash (the Rose and QRich contracts match up exactly with Artest and Kenny's) and they get 2 prospects out of it. Not to mention Q can play a little.

Turkoglu is a decent player but I don't know that he makes for a better trade than what I proposed above.

And if they wait till September they could take on Jones/Dickau and actually save money instead of taking back Q or Rose.

few things, i think since jones/dickau were traded on draft night, BEFORE the new nba fiscal year begins (july 1st), they don't adhere to the 60 day rule in terms of trades. i think the slate is wiped clean and they can be moved in any combination for any deal starting july 11th. someone needs to confirm that tho.

secondly, i think the hedo for artest rumor is bogus - i bet it's hedo for SAR or KT. orlando just lost darko, leaving a big hole in their frontcourt. they need to replace him so hedo for one of their bigs make sense.


[Edited by - djsunyc on 07-05-2007 11:18 AM]

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McK1
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7/5/2007  1:53 PM
Heat overall were garbage last year.

Kobe Wade and Billups all do alot more to help their teams win than just fire off shots ala Crawford. furthermore in a 7 game series I'd bet 100 that either of those 3 would shut Jamal down wheras he would not be able to do the same.

the stop underrating David Lee movement 1. FIRE MIKE 2. HIRE MULLIN 3. PAY AVERY 4. FREE NATE!!!
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