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zach randolph support thread
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PresIke
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7/1/2007  7:50 AM
Where did I say Randolph is here to be soley a jump shooter? Jeeze. The point is he shoots at an efficiency that is comparable to others who score and rebound well, and that he is not the same kind of post player as Curry, as some appear to be focused on.

Briggs, I'm not so clear on how these stats are irrelevant. Is not what one of the reasons people regard these PF's as "lethal" related to their ability to shoot from the outside as well as take it inside? Now some rely on one more than others based on one's strengths, but it seems that most of the players I listed with a post game also rely on jump shooting.

I have a difficult time seeing how we have any significant indication that most jump shots are "bail out" plays. I see a lot of these guys use their jumper in the natural flow of the offense, so to make a blanket statement like that seems a bit much. I do think your point about bailout plays could actually relate to some of the lower efficiency percentages for those who take a high number of jumpers to get their points but also like to/can work inside.

Over 7 in 10 of KG's shots were jumpers, and under 70% of Brand & O'Neal's. Then we see as teams win more the number of outside jump shots decreases (for the most part). 60% of Bosh's shots were jumpers, and Boozer and Duncan took the least amount of outside jumpers of the top PF's very close percentages of shots taken inside and out. Duncan is clearly a better shooter than Boozer, but to potentially contradict your earlier point about a need to take less jumpers, and my question here about higher jump shot % equating to lower wins for a team, Randolph actually took the same percentage of jumpers as Bosh and that was a winning team.

Also, Boozer and Duncan also play with much better teammates than these others, including Randoph, so they are forced to shoot more from the outside. Other players on Toronto also had improved seasons or were added this past year, but the team is not quite as good as Utah or S.A. Coaching and a whole sort of other factors could be contributing too, but I think the stat is relevant, but we just have to be careful about equating one factor as THE reason when it is probably several.
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
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PresIke
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7/1/2007  8:17 AM
Posted by BRIGGS:
Posted by PresIke:

Bonn, it's not that he shot .417 from the floor overall (which is for those who care to not falsely represent numbers is rounded up to 42% not 41% as you have repeatedly stated. Did you read what was written? That number is in reference to his jump shooting efficiency ONLY, which compared to other PF's is a good %. This is not using your own subjective analysis, but actual numbers to prove it. Zach shot 47% (.467) from the floor overall. You are also wrong about Frye in the '05-06 season. In his rookie year Frye took 64% of his shots from the outside. You're studying a psychology graduate degree? You must be learning quantitative methods? Don't you think that empirical data from statistical analysis has some value?
http://www.82games.com/0506/05NYK18A.HTM

Anyway, to address BRIGGS point Zach took 59% of his shots from the outside and 4%1 inside, while a guy like KG took 77% of his shots as jumpers. This is a very small sample for comparison, and one might feel willing to interpret this and then compare Duncan's much more balanced shot selection as an example of the difference between big time PF's who help their teams win and those that do not. The problem is I think other contributing factors could also be at play that are not specifically related to the player himself. It would be interesting to see if the way in which PF's take and the efficiency in which they make their shots has any effect on the outcome of games or not.

Then you made my point. If Zach is shooting 60% of his shots @ 41% and 46 overall--that means he's shooting in the mid 50s from a higher effeciency range. So what we WANT to do with Zach is CUT that jump shooting number down--perhaps as low as 30% and make sure the other 70 are of the low post scenario. Just like getting EC more FGA's--just do the #s and math--simply
you want zach to stay closer to the basket and give up those 4-5 shots
to eddy

The team will best be served mathematically by EC having the opportunity to put up 25% more FGa's and Zach redistrubting his shot selection to 30% jumpers 70% post. All we need now is Magic Johnson to get the whole thing to work out swell.

Sigh...Briggs in essence we don't disagree, but I think you're kidding yourself if you think Randolph is going to take 30% jumpers. Duncan and Boozer don't even do anywhere near that little outside shooting, nor do any of the top PF's in the game. Ideally it would probably be somewhere around 50-50. Only thing is we also have Curry so Zach may not always be able to get the ball in the low-post, and he does work from the high-post because of his shooting ability.

What I have been repeatedly stating as the original point, but keeps being ignored based on subjective takes from you and Bonn on what counts as a good shooting % for a PF and shot selection, is that the numbers demonstrate that Zach is a pretty good shooter for a PF. We see this when comparing him to stars and even Frye's rookie year which most here I think would say was where he scored a lot of his points on his nice jumper. Comparing Frye's rookie season and Zach's '06-07 season we can see that they both shot the EXACT SAME % ON JUMP SHOTS, and most here consider Frye a shooter, so why does that make Zach a bad shooter? This ability indicates reason to believe that it could help us on offense.

[Edited by - PresIke on 07-01-2007 08:17 AM]
Forum Po Po and #33 for a reason...
djsunyc
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7/1/2007  10:45 AM
there is no need to big up zach - everybody knows the guy can ball offensively. and i think everyone also knows he's alot better than eddy.

the question still remains on how both will function together. regardless of all stats, percentages, etc, we won't know their synergy until they're on the court together.

and with eddy starting to take that little jumper at the end of last year, they both really do function, or end their offensive movese in the same area on the court. so imho, what we're going to see is a pass down low to eddy while everybody watches, and then the next time down the court, a pass down to zach while everybody watches.

now that everybody is convinced this will prevent double teams, then expect ALOT of one on one basketball.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07-01-2007 10:46 AM]
Nalod
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7/1/2007  11:01 AM

The one thing I don't believe has been spoken to is MOTIVATION and FEAR!

With two big wide butts playing a similar game if one is not cutting it they will sit. They will practice against each other and perhaps becoming a motivating factor. We all know you can't "coach" motivation but these guys are ego maniacs and perhaps they will have to earn some time now.

Maybe things like defensive assignments and rebounding, and playing within a team game will count toward minutes besides stats.

They can contribute to chemistry or not.
nixluva
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7/1/2007  11:07 AM
Posted by djsunyc:

there is no need to big up zach - everybody knows the guy can ball offensively. and i think everyone also knows he's alot better than eddy.

the question still remains on how both will function together. regardless of all stats, percentages, etc, we won't know their synergy until they're on the court together.

and with eddy starting to take that little jumper at the end of last year, they both really do function, or end their offensive movese in the same area on the court. so imho, what we're going to see is a pass down low to eddy while everybody watches, and then the next time down the court, a pass down to zach while everybody watches.

now that everybody is convinced this will prevent double teams, then expect ALOT of one on one basketball.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07-01-2007 10:46 AM]

Perhaps initially you'll see the Knicks try to establish both guys inside, but then eventually that wll lead to teams being forced to try to stop the high efficiency offense inside and we'll have open shots from the perimeter. You can't just look at it like our offense is going to be this ugly one on one stand around thing. In essence that's a part of what will make it work is that we'll stretch teams with our low post attack and being able to hit from outside. There will also likely be pick and roll and penetration and kick still a part of what we do. It all depends on what the defense does.

Don't be so down on how this is all gonna work. We have too many exciting players for the offense to be so oversimplified. We have guys like Lee and Balkman who will still clean up the boards and make spectacular dunks and guards who will be forced at times to penetrate. The important thing is that we come into every game with a decided advantage inside. We have 2 guys that can't easily be stopped on offense. Like two giant Suns in the middle of a solar system they have a strong gravitational pull on any defense and we're going to benefit greatly because of it.
djsunyc
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7/1/2007  11:09 AM
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by djsunyc:

there is no need to big up zach - everybody knows the guy can ball offensively. and i think everyone also knows he's alot better than eddy.

the question still remains on how both will function together. regardless of all stats, percentages, etc, we won't know their synergy until they're on the court together.

and with eddy starting to take that little jumper at the end of last year, they both really do function, or end their offensive movese in the same area on the court. so imho, what we're going to see is a pass down low to eddy while everybody watches, and then the next time down the court, a pass down to zach while everybody watches.

now that everybody is convinced this will prevent double teams, then expect ALOT of one on one basketball.

[Edited by - djsunyc on 07-01-2007 10:46 AM]

Perhaps initially you'll see the Knicks try to establish both guys inside, but then eventually that wll lead to teams being forced to try to stop the high efficiency offense inside and we'll have open shots from the perimeter. You can't just look at it like our offense is going to be this ugly one on one stand around thing. In essence that's a part of what will make it work is that we'll stretch teams with our low post attack and being able to hit from outside. There will also likely be pick and roll and penetration and kick still a part of what we do. It all depends on what the defense does.

Don't be so down on how this is all gonna work. We have too many exciting players for the offense to be so oversimplified. We have guys like Lee and Balkman who will still clean up the boards and make spectacular dunks and guards who will be forced at times to penetrate. The important thing is that we come into every game with a decided advantage inside. We have 2 guys that can't easily be stopped on offense. Like two giant Suns in the middle of a solar system they have a strong gravitational pull on any defense and we're going to benefit greatly because of it.

i'm not down on anything. it could all click for all we know.

all i know is that during the past 7 years, i've been preconditioned to expect the worse because NOTHING has worked out so far.
nixluva
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7/1/2007  11:55 AM
RELAX DJ, this time we'll see some results. You guys need to check out this article and learn some things about the guy we just got:

Zach Randolph: FOCUSED.

By Wayne Thompson
TrailBlazers.com
Rip City Magazine

Before all the leaves fell off the trees this fall, NBA pundits were asking the same question: What's going on with Zach Randolph?

"Is it possible for somebody to win the Most Improved Award twice?" asked John Hollinger of ESPN Insider.

"Randolph won it three years ago, but is playing ridiculously well to start this season, reminding everyone why the Blazers gave him that oft-ridiculed six-year, $84 million extension. Zach has become a dominant force on the block -- "hanging 35 and 37 points on the two L.A. teams was quite an eye-opener," Hollinger wrote.

So what is going on with Zach Randolph these days?

The soft-spoken Randolph has a one-word answer:

"Focus. That's the big difference," he says. "This year I'm focused on being the kind of player I always wanted to be."

But there's more to the story than that. It may sound trite, even in the world of sports jargon and endless clichés, but the real secret of Randolph's dominating performances so far this season has been hard work.

Coaches past and present who have worked with Randolph since he left Michigan State in 2001 say so.

Former Trail Blazers assistant coach Herb Brown, who worked with one-on-one Zach during his rookie NBA season, predicted stardom for the Indiana native from the start. Why? "Because Zach was willing to put in the time to get better," Brown said.

"He came to us a little naive about what it would take to be a major player in the league," Brown said. "But he was willing to get after it and he has such a passion for getting better.

"He's a gym-rat. He likes challenges and he wants to become a great player," said Brown, now an assistant coach with the Atlanta Hawks.

"He's got a lot going for him, not only his size and strength, but some good luck as well," Brown said.

"Zach's soft shot around the hoop has a tendency to bounce around and fall in whereas many other players' shots bounce in and out. And even though he's not a jumper, he's very quick off his feet," Brown noted.

That vertical quickness is one of Randolph's secret weapons and many basketball coaches and scouts don't measure it.

For example, Randolph reaches the peak of his jump quicker than most other power forwards and centers do, so even though they may be taller or can jump higher, Randolph often gets to the ball first.

Combine that attribute with a nose for the ball -- knowing where to plant himself around the basket when one of his teammates takes a shot -- and it explains why Zach is such a good offensive rebounder.

Randolph is blessed with very soft hands and surprising first-step quickness for a man so large. Offense was Zach's main emphasis and interest when Brown engaged him as a rookie. "We had to teach him to use his feet more on defense and to trust his teammates and not force things," Brown said.

Nate McMillan and his staff have done a really good job with him," Brown added, " I'm not at all surprised with what he's doing. He'll be an all-star some day. I never doubted it."

Blazer coaches since then all have said they would like to see Randolph develop some power moves with his right hand, but he was doing so well as a southpaw scorer, he was reluctant to change things.

Indeed, in a reverse spin of the famous cliché about fixing things not broken, Randolph told Rip City Magazine three years ago, "If it's fixed, why break it."

But this summer, under the tutelage of new Blazer assistant coach Bill Bayno, Randolph saw a need for developing another weapon in his offensive arsenal. "With so many double teams coming at him and with defenders over-playing his left hand moves, Zach decided he needed more versatility in his game," Bayno said.

Working out in Las Vegas and Atlanta, Bayno said Randolph turned himself into an ambidextrous player in just two days. "He's a quick study and very gifted. I was amazed at how quickly he adapted," Bayno said.

With Bayno's help, Zach mastered the use of his off-hand and can now make spin moves to the hoop and throw up lay-ups and baby hooks with his right hand. He spent hours on passing and dribbling drills with the right hand. "We also worked on his footwork and on how to use his body to draw more free throws," Bayno added.

"I didn't know Zach when we started training together, but I can say now, without hesitation, that Randolph is the hardest working basketball player I have ever coached. He has practiced very hard to put himself into this position. And not just the basketball stuff," Bayno noted, "Zach has worked hard on his conditioning, running suicides (non-stop sprints the length of a basketball court and back), lifting weights and working on muscle building and leg strengthing exercises with Bob Medina (Trail Blazer conditioning coach)."

Some people get paid a lot of money to play basketball but don't like to play. Zach loves to play. He lives for that. His mind set is a joy for coaches who like to teach," said Bayno, a former head coach at UNLV (1995-2000).

Randolph has been an offensive force in the league for the past three and a half seasons. In the 2003-2004 campaign, he became a 20/10 man, becoming one of only five NBA players to average 20 or more points and 10 or more rebounds a game. The others were Kevin Garnett of Minnesota, Tim Duncan of San Antonio, Shaquille O'Neal of the Los Angeles Lakers, and Jermaine O'Neal of the Indiana Pacers.

That 20/10 performance earned Randolph the NBA's coveted Most Improved Player award in 2004.

Zach played at the same high level the next season, averaging 18.9 points and 9.6 rebounds per game, until he suffered a season-ending and career-threatening knee injury at Washington, Jan. 12, 2005. It limited his season to 46 games. Randolph had surgery on the knee in March of 2005, which included a microfracture procedure to expose the bone surface and encourage cartilage growth.

This is a serious surgery that has ended the careers of many athletes, most notably Jamal Mashburn of the New Orleans Hornets. Jason Kidd of the New Jersey Nets and Amare Stoudemire of the Phoenix Suns also have undergone similar surgeries. As has Randolph's teammate, Darius Miles, earlier this month.

Another former Blazer assistant, John Loyer, who worked with Randolph during the summer of 2002, is similarly impressed with Zach's work ethic. "He really wants to be a great player in the league. He put himself where he is today through hard work," said Loyer, now an assistant coach with the Philadelphia 76ers.

After Zach's frustrating rookie season had ended, Loyer drove every day from West Lafayette to Marion Indiana for two months to be Zach's personal basketball trainer. That Loyer had come to Zach's Indiana home to work with him told Zach that the Blazers were committed to his future. It was a confidence boost that Zach says he needed.

"Working out about three hours every day, we worked on his post moves, his footwork and his outside shooting," says Loyer.

"I was very impressed with his work ethic; he simply has a burning desire to succeed," Loyer said. "He's a quick learner and he knows what he needs to do to improve his game.

"He really wants to be a great player in the league. He put himself where he is today through hard work and he's gaining confidence in his game every day," Loyer said in a 2003 interview with Rip City Magazine.

During the daily sessions with Loyer in the summer of 2002, Randolph took about 300 to 500 jump shots a day to improve his perimeter shooting. "Zach has always had a knack for scoring and has worked hard at establishing better low-post positions," Loyer said, "He has the quickness to succeed against bigger power forwards," Loyer said. "But he needed to be able to hit the open jump shot consistently to keep defenders from packing in on him."

Loyer also has noticed that Randolph has learned to be a contact initiator on post-up shots. "That's a characteristic of his game that allows him to get off shots against bigger people," Loyer says.

Under Loyer's individual tutelage, Randolph also has become a better team defender -- a factor resulting from hours of study of game films. "This is one of the biggest things he's improved on," Loyer said.

Another element of Randolph's game that needs improvement is his passing out of the post when the double teams come. "That's the next stage of his development," McMillan said earlier this month.

Loyer noted the deficiency, too. "I think he can develop into a good passer, but first he must learn to have first and second thoughts when he gets the ball in the post."

It's simply a matter of throwing the ball back out to the perimeter quickly when the double team comes, reestablishing his position even deeper in the post and being confident that he will get the ball back.

"So many scorers -- guys like Zach with a shooter's mentality -- don't like to give up the ball because they're afraid they won't get it back," Loyer said. "But the key is to trust your teammates to get it back in your hands and in a better position to do something with it."

Randolph this season has shown a greater willingness to pass the ball out of the post when double-teams come, but sometimes he is too slow in recognizing it, McMillan noted. "I do think he trusts his teammates a lot more this season," McMillan said.

Trail Blazer assistant Coach Maurice Lucas, an NBA all-star who defined the role of the power forward in the 1970s and -80s, sees a lot of himself in Randolph.

"Zach is starting to understand his role," Lucas says, "not only in playing the position, but also in learning how to be a team leader. This team is designed around his leadership and so far he's accepting the challenge. "He's also learned that conditioning is a big part of his success, so he came to us this fall in the best condition of his life,” Lucas added.

You'd never guess that this 6-foot-9 hulk of a man, 256 pounds of muscle, mass and grit, is a mama's boy who, at the young age 25, is on track to becoming an NBA all-star -- his childhood dream come true.

Zach's mother, Mae, a single, stay-at-home mom on a fixed income, raised four children in Marion, Indiana, a small blue-collar town about 70 miles north of Indianapolis.

"My mother has been my biggest influence, my biggest fan," Zach points out without hesitation. "She's been there my whole life. Whatever I went through, she stuck by me. I think that's important for anybody. "

Mae watched Zach grow into manhood with a tunnel-vision outlook on what he wanted to be when he grew up. "It was always basketball," Mae said in interview for TrailBlazers.com, the Trail Blazer website.

"I'd say he became really enthusiastic about basketball in the fourth or fifth grade," Mae said. "He started out playing at the PAL club and then the Boys Club. I was really protective of him and wouldn't let him go a lot of places. I always kept my kids close to home, but when Zach made it to the PAL club, he just started living for basketball."

Randolph's mom is not surprised by Zach's emergence as an NBA star player. "He was always a big boy," she told TrailBlazers.com. "And basketball is all he ever did. He talked about ball, watched ball, played ball, dreamed ball. He was always holding on to a ball and dribbling it around the house."

As if he was Michael Jordan, who was Zach’s idol growing up.

"I kept telling him not to dribble in the house, but he'd grab that ball and would just start. I'd yell at him for doing it and he'd just grab it real quick and head outside."

Those indoor dribbling escapades resulted in a lot of broken bowls, glasses and figurines -- the penalty for honing his game at home. Zach says he didn't always tell Mae about the damages, but she knew.

"I didn't always say anything," Mae mused. "But he did break a glass table once. It would have been hard not to notice that."

Starting the season averaging 27 points and 10 rebounds per game, Randolph admits to being addicted to the game.

"Basketball is my life," he says. "I just want to be the best player I can be. I've always felt that way. Work hard. Improve. Work harder. Improve more. That's been my approach."

And it's working. Zach is the go-to-guy in Portland's attack. He's trusting his teammates more, he's playing better defense, he's added off-hand moves to his weaponry in the low-post and he's learning how to combat defenders who try to double-team him.

In other words, he's well on his way to fulfilling his childhood dream: Zach Randolph, all-star. He can see the limelight in the distance as the leaves of another NBA autumn lie on the ground.

Wayne Thompson was The Oregonian's Blazers beat writer from 1970-73 and sports editor from 1977-1979. You can email Wayne at mlou4jazz@aol.com.
kam77
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7/1/2007  12:01 PM
Briggs and Bonn totally miss the point on the jumpshot eFG stat.

Would you rather have David Lee shooting more jumpers like he says he wants to this year (when last year he shot 29%??)

Or rather FRYE when last year he was at 39%???

lol @ being BANNED by Martin since 11/07/10 (for asking if Mr. Earl had a point). Really, Martin? C'mon. This is the internet. I've seen much worse on this site. By Earl himself. Drop the hypocrisy.
djsunyc
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7/1/2007  12:07 PM
nixluva - i hope so. it would be fun to actually cheer a team that could actually go somewhere.
Pharzeone
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7/1/2007  12:19 PM
I like the option of playing Zach and Curry at the same time because it puts pressure on Marbury and Jamal to make a serious effective to get the ball into the post player hands. No more of these silly excuses well he was triple team so I couldn't get him the ball stuff that's why I just threw up a shot excuse. I don't want to see Jamal or Nate just running up the court jacking up a three with those two in a game.
I don't like to play bad rookies , I like to play good rookies - Mike D'Antoni
Bonn1997
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11/30/2007  4:16 PM
Posted by babyKnicks:
Posted by Bonn1997:
Posted by misterearl:

bobs3304 - Randolph does not play the same game eddy Curry does. I don't understand why people continue to parrot mis-informaion based on some stereotype.

Zach has range to 15 feet. That is not Eddy Curry's game.
Check out Zach's stats on 82games.com. Zach barely hits 40% of his jump shots. http://www.82games.com/0607/06POR12A.HTM We could have just kept Frye if we wanted that. The only time where Zach is truly an effective player is in close to the basket with the ball in his hands and without thinking about possibly passing the ball. Sound like another player on the team?

Bonn, you are an idiot.

We got frye, plus 10 boards a game and an additional low post presence.

We also got rid of francis.

I've been exposed as an idiot
TMS
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11/30/2007  5:35 PM
Posted by Bonn1997:

I've been exposed as an idiot

^ i coulda told u that w/o looking up any stats on the internet.
After 7 years & 40K+ posts, banned by martin for calling Nalod a 'moron'. Awesome.
Bonn1997
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11/30/2007  6:09 PM
HA!
Siar617
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12/1/2007  10:49 PM
i Believe having players like morris and chandler in the game with him would make him look better better shot blockers and shot selection
jesus617 walks
zach randolph support thread

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