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Curry vs Duncan on offense
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tkf
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5/19/2007  1:12 PM
Posted by mythfaze:
BS is the part about you saying that is all he can do. How about this. Maybe he just does that better than everyone else. Or maybe he can do that so why shoot jumpers? Are you telling me, if you can score in the paint 60% of the time, you are going to forgo that and shoot jumpers, a lower % shot, just to show that you can? come on martin, this is NBA basketball not the game of H O R S E.......

With the double teams he was facing at the end of the season, he was really struggling to get his offense going. What he was going to do was always very predictable - same basic back to the basket, turn or spin, shoot. Other teams would push him out so he'd be too far from the basket to work comfortably or double as soon as he touched to cut off his turn/spin.

If he develops a jump shot, he'll be able to stretch the defense a bit and open up the floor for himself. He'll still be an offensive threat at a greater distance from the hoop and have more options once he touches the ball.

That won't stop the double teams, especially if the knicks don't have any other shooters, they will still attempt to take the ball out of his hands, no matter where he is. I don't know if I want curry shooting more jumpers, maybe 2 a game, to as you said, open up the floor a bit for him, but if the knick don't get any other shooters, jumper or not, he is going to see a lot of swarming defenses around him..

Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
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mythfaze
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5/19/2007  1:18 PM
Posted by tkf:
Posted by mythfaze:
BS is the part about you saying that is all he can do. How about this. Maybe he just does that better than everyone else. Or maybe he can do that so why shoot jumpers? Are you telling me, if you can score in the paint 60% of the time, you are going to forgo that and shoot jumpers, a lower % shot, just to show that you can? come on martin, this is NBA basketball not the game of H O R S E.......

With the double teams he was facing at the end of the season, he was really struggling to get his offense going. What he was going to do was always very predictable - same basic back to the basket, turn or spin, shoot. Other teams would push him out so he'd be too far from the basket to work comfortably or double as soon as he touched to cut off his turn/spin.

If he develops a jump shot, he'll be able to stretch the defense a bit and open up the floor for himself. He'll still be an offensive threat at a greater distance from the hoop and have more options once he touches the ball.

That won't stop the double teams, especially if the knicks don't have any other shooters, they will still attempt to take the ball out of his hands, no matter where he is. I don't know if I want curry shooting more jumpers, maybe 2 a game, to as you said, open up the floor a bit for him, but if the knick don't get any other shooters, jumper or not, he is going to see a lot of swarming defenses around him..

No, it definitely won't stop the double teams, it'll just be more difficult for the defense to double if he can catch it anywhere in or directly around the paint area and make something happen. Right now they know he'll just be on one of the blocks and to drop a man down.

We absolutely need shooters. The back-to-the-basket big style only works if you can pass out and make something happen. Opposing defenses have to be really concerned about throwing other men at him because of the person they'll be leaving open. This season it would often end up being someone like Malik Rose. I give him credit for being willing to shoot them, and hit on occasion... but when Curry getting doubled leads to open jumpers for Malik, we have a problem.
martin
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5/19/2007  1:41 PM
Posted by tkf:
Posted by martin:
Posted by tkf:
Posted by martin:
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by martin:

Curry is also a one dimensional post player: dude can only score when he is one-on-one. Can't pass out. Doesn't know how to re-post and/or fight for position.

This is an EXAGGERATION!!! Curry ROUTINELY beats not just his man but help as well. His one dimension happens to be one of the rarist in the league. Let me ask you again, how many guys were better in the paint than him? ZERO? He DOES pass out of the post, but you must remember that this team also has to do it's job better in making more out of his passes. Sure he doesn't pass as much as he should and his passes aren't always very good yet, but he was making better passes later in the season and we still didn't take full advantage of it. That will change, but for now it's something he has to keep working on. He was avg'ing about an assist a game and I think he'd get at least one more if we had another catch and shoot player or 2 to play with him.

How many times did Francis get the ball and then hesistate and look to try and dribble his way to a shot? So many other guys like Frye, Jared, Mardy, Balkman also received passes and couldn't convert. You think that doesn't make a difference? Compare that to what Duncan has to pass to. Yeah he's much better at it, but they can convert what he does much better. I think we need to give this a bit more time and see how it develops. As I said this is all new for Curry and the other Knicks.

AHHHAHAHA. HHAHAA. LOL. HHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! I just re-read your post.

Did you just say that Curry was the best big man in the post? Holy crap. You mean you would not want the ball in the hands of Shaq, TD or someone else before you would want the ball in Curry's hands?

Dude, statistically speaking Curry had the most points in the paint, that does not mean he is the best post player, just means he doesn't know how to do anything BUT that.

Part true and part BS... true is the part that scoring the most points in the paint does not mean you are the best post player. I agree with that.

BS is the part about you saying that is all he can do. How about this. Maybe he just does that better than everyone else. Or maybe he can do that so why shoot jumpers? Are you telling me, if you can score in the paint 60% of the time, you are going to forgo that and shoot jumpers, a lower % shot, just to show that you can? come on martin, this is NBA basketball not the game of H O R S E.......

What else positive was Curry doing? Moving the ball? Creating shots for others? Passing to cutters? Playing D? What else was he doing?

tkf: if Curry was so good, injuries aside, the knicks would be able to scrap more than 23 2 years ago and 33 this past year. In a freakishly weak Eastern conference.

martin, a lot of times guys get shots, open shots that don't directly come from the passer , but because of him, curry got the knicks guards a lot of open looks because he was always doubled, now ask yourself this, how well do our guards shoot? how well do our forwards shoot? I will save you the time, outside of nate, not very well.
tkf: if Curry was so good, injuries aside, the knicks would be able to scrap more than 23 2 years ago and 33 this past year. In a freakishly weak Eastern conference.

you are right, and in that case, Okafor, Jermane oneal, Pau gasol, all are not that good either, because their teams either had very similar or worse records this year...... Go figure, right? I can find anything to knock any player on, that is easy, no one is saying eddy is great, why is it that it has to be one way with some of you guys. It can never be that curry is a very good post player, a player that commands double teams every game. Instead it has to be some negative attached with anything positive he does. Right now you are just fault finding and it seems as if you are trying so hard that you are leaving out any room for reasonableness...

I think you are taking the argument and my statements off the main points. I put forth that Curry was a 1-dimentional post player. You still haven't told me how he is different.

You said that since Curry is hitting like 60% from the field, so why do different? If Curry was SOOOO dominant in the post, surely they must win more than 33 games. I don't pretend to compare the Knicks' situation with Curry and the other post players you put out there.
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martin
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5/19/2007  1:43 PM
Posted by tkf:
Posted by martin:
Posted by tkf:
Posted by martin:
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by martin:

Curry is also a one dimensional post player: dude can only score when he is one-on-one. Can't pass out. Doesn't know how to re-post and/or fight for position.

This is an EXAGGERATION!!! Curry ROUTINELY beats not just his man but help as well. His one dimension happens to be one of the rarist in the league. Let me ask you again, how many guys were better in the paint than him? ZERO? He DOES pass out of the post, but you must remember that this team also has to do it's job better in making more out of his passes. Sure he doesn't pass as much as he should and his passes aren't always very good yet, but he was making better passes later in the season and we still didn't take full advantage of it. That will change, but for now it's something he has to keep working on. He was avg'ing about an assist a game and I think he'd get at least one more if we had another catch and shoot player or 2 to play with him.

How many times did Francis get the ball and then hesistate and look to try and dribble his way to a shot? So many other guys like Frye, Jared, Mardy, Balkman also received passes and couldn't convert. You think that doesn't make a difference? Compare that to what Duncan has to pass to. Yeah he's much better at it, but they can convert what he does much better. I think we need to give this a bit more time and see how it develops. As I said this is all new for Curry and the other Knicks.

AHHHAHAHA. HHAHAA. LOL. HHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! I just re-read your post.

Did you just say that Curry was the best big man in the post? Holy crap. You mean you would not want the ball in the hands of Shaq, TD or someone else before you would want the ball in Curry's hands?

Dude, statistically speaking Curry had the most points in the paint, that does not mean he is the best post player, just means he doesn't know how to do anything BUT that.

Part true and part BS... true is the part that scoring the most points in the paint does not mean you are the best post player. I agree with that.

BS is the part about you saying that is all he can do. How about this. Maybe he just does that better than everyone else. Or maybe he can do that so why shoot jumpers? Are you telling me, if you can score in the paint 60% of the time, you are going to forgo that and shoot jumpers, a lower % shot, just to show that you can? come on martin, this is NBA basketball not the game of H O R S E.......

What else positive was Curry doing? Moving the ball? Creating shots for others? Passing to cutters? Playing D? What else was he doing?

tkf: if Curry was so good, injuries aside, the knicks would be able to scrap more than 23 2 years ago and 33 this past year. In a freakishly weak Eastern conference.

martin, a lot of times guys get shots, open shots that don't directly come from the passer , but because of him, curry got the knicks guards a lot of open looks because he was always doubled, now ask yourself this, how well do our guards shoot? how well do our forwards shoot? I will save you the time, outside of nate, not very well.
tkf: if Curry was so good, injuries aside, the knicks would be able to scrap more than 23 2 years ago and 33 this past year. In a freakishly weak Eastern conference.

you are right, and in that case, Okafor, Jermane oneal, Pau gasol, all are not that good either, because their teams either had very similar or worse records this year...... Go figure, right? I can find anything to knock any player on, that is easy, no one is saying eddy is great, why is it that it has to be one way with some of you guys. It can never be that curry is a very good post player, a player that commands double teams every game. Instead it has to be some negative attached with anything positive he does. Right now you are just fault finding and it seems as if you are trying so hard that you are leaving out any room for reasonableness...

also, I remember more lazy passing, off-target passing, TOs, holding the ball with indecision... all from the double teams more than Eddy passing out and having it end up with an open shot. That's the other team, not the Knicks. Frankly, I don't remember the Knicks losing because the missing a ton of wide open shots. Not one game.
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Bonn1997
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5/19/2007  1:48 PM
Posted by tkf:
Posted by martin:
Posted by tkf:
Posted by martin:
Posted by nixluva:
Posted by martin:

Curry is also a one dimensional post player: dude can only score when he is one-on-one. Can't pass out. Doesn't know how to re-post and/or fight for position.

This is an EXAGGERATION!!! Curry ROUTINELY beats not just his man but help as well. His one dimension happens to be one of the rarist in the league. Let me ask you again, how many guys were better in the paint than him? ZERO? He DOES pass out of the post, but you must remember that this team also has to do it's job better in making more out of his passes. Sure he doesn't pass as much as he should and his passes aren't always very good yet, but he was making better passes later in the season and we still didn't take full advantage of it. That will change, but for now it's something he has to keep working on. He was avg'ing about an assist a game and I think he'd get at least one more if we had another catch and shoot player or 2 to play with him.

How many times did Francis get the ball and then hesistate and look to try and dribble his way to a shot? So many other guys like Frye, Jared, Mardy, Balkman also received passes and couldn't convert. You think that doesn't make a difference? Compare that to what Duncan has to pass to. Yeah he's much better at it, but they can convert what he does much better. I think we need to give this a bit more time and see how it develops. As I said this is all new for Curry and the other Knicks.

AHHHAHAHA. HHAHAA. LOL. HHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! I just re-read your post.

Did you just say that Curry was the best big man in the post? Holy crap. You mean you would not want the ball in the hands of Shaq, TD or someone else before you would want the ball in Curry's hands?

Dude, statistically speaking Curry had the most points in the paint, that does not mean he is the best post player, just means he doesn't know how to do anything BUT that.

Part true and part BS... true is the part that scoring the most points in the paint does not mean you are the best post player. I agree with that.

BS is the part about you saying that is all he can do. How about this. Maybe he just does that better than everyone else. Or maybe he can do that so why shoot jumpers? Are you telling me, if you can score in the paint 60% of the time, you are going to forgo that and shoot jumpers, a lower % shot, just to show that you can? come on martin, this is NBA basketball not the game of H O R S E.......

What else positive was Curry doing? Moving the ball? Creating shots for others? Passing to cutters? Playing D? What else was he doing?

tkf: if Curry was so good, injuries aside, the knicks would be able to scrap more than 23 2 years ago and 33 this past year. In a freakishly weak Eastern conference.

martin, a lot of times guys get shots, open shots that don't directly come from the passer , but because of him, curry got the knicks guards a lot of open looks because he was always doubled, now ask yourself this, how well do our guards shoot? how well do our forwards shoot? I will save you the time, outside of nate, not very well.
tkf: if Curry was so good, injuries aside, the knicks would be able to scrap more than 23 2 years ago and 33 this past year. In a freakishly weak Eastern conference.

you are right, and in that case, Okafor, Jermane oneal, Pau gasol, all are not that good either, because their teams either had very similar or worse records this year...... Go figure, right? I can find anything to knock any player on, that is easy, no one is saying eddy is great, why is it that it has to be one way with some of you guys. It can never be that curry is a very good post player, a player that commands double teams every game. Instead it has to be some negative attached with anything positive he does. Right now you are just fault finding and it seems as if you are trying so hard that you are leaving out any room for reasonableness...
Nate's our only shooter? Crawford, Marbury, and Q are all decent shooters. You don't have to be a top 5 shooter to make teams pay for doubling. Someone shooting in the 30s overall from 3 will make you pay for doubling (because he'll be wide open and shooting at a higher percentage) so long as the player drawing the double team can find him.
BlueSeats
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5/19/2007  2:19 PM
You guys really ought to consider trimming some posts.
tkf
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5/19/2007  2:26 PM
Posted by BlueSeats:

You guys really ought to consider trimming some posts.

LOL....... it is a mess....
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
nixluva
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5/19/2007  4:57 PM
Posted by martin:

Let me ask you again, how many guys were better in the paint than him? ZERO?

AHHHAHAHA. HHAHAA. LOL. HHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! I just re-read your post.

Did you just say that Curry was the best big man in the post? Holy crap. You mean you would not want the ball in the hands of Shaq, TD or someone else before you would want the ball in Curry's hands?

Dude, statistically speaking Curry had the most points in the paint, that does not mean he is the best post player, just means he doesn't know how to do anything BUT that.

[/quote]

I'm just now reading this and it's a PRIME example of what I HATE about this board sometimes. If I say that Curry was the best at scoring "IN THE PAINT" then you say that I said he was the best "BIGMAN IN THE POST" that is an attempt to make me sound stupid. There is a difference between post ups and post ups that are "IN THE PAINT". TONS of post up players actually do much of their work from outside of the paint. Curry is IMO the best at scoring in the paint and the stats back that up. He's able to get and hold deep position better than most Big men and he converts at a high %.

His ability to get such deep position is why he scores EVEN ON DOUBLES. The doubles work when he's a bit further out, but once he's in scoring position he still scored much of the time. As for his passing, the guy is getting better but obviously has a way to go. Part of the problem is as I discussed. We must get to the point where we have more than one guy that will catch and shoot or slash to the basket so that his passes actually lead directly to a score. That's the only way he can get an assist.
tkf
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5/19/2007  5:05 PM
yea martin, you are right, we didn't lose because of our stellar shooting, it is all curry's fault...

lata... this is becomming ridiculous...
Anyone who sits around and waits for the lottery to better themselves, either in real life or in sports, Is a Loser............... TKF
bobs3304
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5/19/2007  8:34 PM
duncan is boring and unathletic.

i'd say dirk is more athletic than him.

difference is he plays defense and doesn't make any mistakes.
DLee is the best thing to happen to NY in Isiah's 4 year tenure. And that alone, though a positive on the radar, is sad as hell.
jazz74
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5/23/2007  11:33 AM
this is an interesting debate though the comparisons are extreme.

duncan is probably one of the most fundamentally sound players i have ever seen ( 20 years of basketball watching). he sees the floor almost like a point guard and when he catches the ball, his decision making is unbelievable. he will find an open temamate or shoot or drive. there are MANY ways he can beat you but the major weapon he uses is the bankshot which is almost automatic. his foot work and speed is above average though there are better players in that department ( garnett?). defensively, he is yunderrated since he has the presence of mind to anticipate when to block or intimidate effectively. that is why he rarely gets dunked on. stronger than he looks he rarely gets muscled down in the post and an amazing rebounder. because he does everything by the book and not flashy, it is true that he is VERY boring to watch but he gets the job done. his weaknesses is that he can turn the ball over but less than most bigs. he can deter too much to others. but he has a talented team so he can afford to. he is as charasmatic as plain wallpaper. for whatever reason, he is not as "dominant" as he was in the early 2000's. could be because of age or the level of talent.

as for curry, he is an offensive weapon who has gotten exponentially better than the previous year. he can score in a variety of ways whether it is with a jump hook or a nice turnaround jumper. he is to powerful to stop in the post and his footwork is remarkable, one of the best in the league for his size. he will get range with his jumpshot and when that happens he will be impossible to stop. he probably will be a 23ppg player pretty soon at this pace. however, his defense is horrendous and even though he is strong, he can still be muscled out of position for rebounds. it must be the lack of focus. coincidentally, he grew leaps and bounds this year and he will get better. doubtful he will ever be on tim duncan's level but he will be among the best centers for at least the next five years. rebounding can be taught and he should get better. defense is alarming though.
djsunyc
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5/23/2007  11:38 AM
Posted by bobs3304:

duncan is boring and unathletic.

i'd say dirk is more athletic than him.

difference is he plays defense and doesn't make any mistakes.

taking a dribble left, feeling the defender and spinning back right to take a soft jumper in one fluid motion without any hesitation is athletic in my book.
Bonn1997
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5/23/2007  1:42 PM
Posted by djsunyc:
Posted by bobs3304:

duncan is boring and unathletic.

i'd say dirk is more athletic than him.

difference is he plays defense and doesn't make any mistakes.

taking a dribble left, feeling the defender and spinning back right to take a soft jumper in one fluid motion without any hesitation is athletic in my book.
I agree. Sometimes people think that if you're not flashy, you're not athletic.
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